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increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better option
System OS6 Firmware 6.6.1-T230 Type X-Raid / Raid 5
hi. we have a pro 4 running os6 with 4 x 8tb in xraid2. p4 is almost at capacity so we’ve been considering an upgrade to an empty pro 6 that we own. our storage needs are predicted to be considerably less than the rate of tb that we’ve previously required, and that something like 4 x 12tb or 4 x 16tb, would comfortably meet our future needs. a straight swap appears to be the simple answer, but the only reason why we’ve held off from moving from p4 to p6, is that we prefer the p4's form factor along with its quietness in operation. as such we are left considering two possible upgrade scenarios and we would be very grateful for any input as to how best to proceed.
scenarios:
sc1 (p4) – swap out 2 x 8tb disks in the p4 with either 2 x 12tb, 14tb or 16tb (one by one) to increase its capacity
sc2 (p6) - backup data, factory reset the p6 with 4 x 8tb & 2 x 12tb disks. copy back data
from the little reading we’ve done, specs seem to suggest that the p6 is superior to the p4, and although cosmetics go some way to influencing our decision, a better machine with a larger capacity and one that might be viewed as slightly more future-friendly (from a legacy perspective at least), will always win out in the end.
based upon some info we found ("No x86 system can expand past 16TB. Systems already above 16TB may not expand further. If you are hitting a limit, you have the option of factory resetting the NAS to achieve full capacity if disk capacity is over 16TB" - https://kb.netgear.com/7010/ReadyNAS-Volume-Expansion), would that mean;
q1 (sc1): if we did opt for sc1, we’d have to back up p4 first, factory reset with 2 x 8tb + 2 x 12tb, 14tb or 16tb, and then, copy all the data back to it?
q2 (sc2): if we populated this with 4 x 8tb & 2 x 12tb disks, we’d have to do it with a backup and factory reset first? also, would the expansion limit mentioned above prevent us (should the need arise) from adding another higher capacity disk to the p6 in the future?
and finally,
q3 (sc2): obviously, doing a backup first would be the safest thing to do, but if we were prepared to skip this step, are the disks of the p4 interchangeable with the p6 – i.e. could we simply take out all four disks from the p4 and slot them straight into the p6, let it sync and then, add two more blank disks (one by one) to p6 to increase capacity once the sync (assuming they are interchangeable) is complete?
q1 (sc1): if we did opt for sc1, we’d have to back up p4 first, factory reset with 2 x 8tb + 2 x 12tb, 14tb or 16tb, and then, copy all the data back to it?
There is no need to do a factory reset. Though making a backup is recommended before expansion (or otherwise manipulating disks).
All you need to do is hot swap one of the disks (Pro 4 running), and wait for the web ui to tell you the sync is complete.
Then hot-swap the second disk, and the volume will expand after the initial sync.
q2 (sc2): if we populated this with 4 x 8tb & 2 x 12tb disks, we’d have to do it with a backup and factory reset first? also, would the expansion limit mentioned above prevent us (should the need arise) from adding another higher capacity disk to the p6 in the future?
Of course the P6 would need to be converted to OS-6 if that has not yet been done.
As I mentioned, there is no known expansion limit. My own Pro 6 is running 3x8TB+3x3TB at the moment, so has a 25 TB (~22.4 TiB) volume size. The 3 TB disks are pretty old, as they fail I'll likely replace them with 8 TB models.
q3 (sc2): obviously, doing a backup first would be the safest thing to do, but if we were prepared to skip this step, are the disks of the p4 interchangeable with the p6 – i.e. could we simply take out all four disks from the p4 and slot them straight into the p6, let it sync and then, add two more blank disks (one by one) to p6 to increase capacity once the sync (assuming they are interchangeable) is complete?
I covered this above. If the Pro 6 is already running OS-6 the disks can be migrated.
But I still do recommend a backup. Something can easily go wrong (including dropping a disk, or simply not seating into the slot all the way).
q1 (sc1): if we did opt for sc1, we’d have to back up p4 first, factory reset with 2 x 8tb + 2 x 12tb, 14tb or 16tb, and then, copy all the data back to it?
There is no need to do a factory reset. Though making a backup is recommended before expansion (or otherwise manipulating disks).
All you need to do is hot swap one of the disks (Pro 4 running), and wait for the web ui to tell you the sync is complete.
Then hot-swap the second disk, and the volume will expand after the initial sync.
q2 (sc2): if we populated this with 4 x 8tb & 2 x 12tb disks, we’d have to do it with a backup and factory reset first? also, would the expansion limit mentioned above prevent us (should the need arise) from adding another higher capacity disk to the p6 in the future?
Of course the P6 would need to be converted to OS-6 if that has not yet been done.
As I mentioned, there is no known expansion limit. My own Pro 6 is running 3x8TB+3x3TB at the moment, so has a 25 TB (~22.4 TiB) volume size. The 3 TB disks are pretty old, as they fail I'll likely replace them with 8 TB models.
q3 (sc2): obviously, doing a backup first would be the safest thing to do, but if we were prepared to skip this step, are the disks of the p4 interchangeable with the p6 – i.e. could we simply take out all four disks from the p4 and slot them straight into the p6, let it sync and then, add two more blank disks (one by one) to p6 to increase capacity once the sync (assuming they are interchangeable) is complete?
I covered this above. If the Pro 6 is already running OS-6 the disks can be migrated.
But I still do recommend a backup. Something can easily go wrong (including dropping a disk, or simply not seating into the slot all the way).
Re: increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better op
thank you very much for the information stephen . from memory, the last resync we did when upgrading disks on the p4 took a few days, so to know which paths to avoid is an enormous help. greatly appreciated.
p6 is already running os6 so great that this could (potentially) be as simple as a straight swap. p4 has the extra ram but not on the p6, so thank you for the reminder.
now that the process path is established, we're left wondering which model (p6 or p4) would be better for our use case? during a discussion last week, somebody referenced an analogy with amplifiers where for maximum efficiency and a cleaner output signal, the general recommendation is to use higher powered amps to run speakers with a lower wattage rating. noise and footprint aside, could this be applicable here? a few extra specs taken from the logs of the p6 you can find below.
one last hypothetical question. if we were to choose the p6, had the ram upgraded, added two extra disks making six in total and then, say two years from now, the p6 died irreparably (hardware not the disks), would we be able to salvage any of the data by moving four of the p6 disks back into the p4 for retrieval?
Re: increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better op
The overall performance should be similar - both are capable of saturating gigabit ethernet for larger file transfers.
More bays definitely gives you more flexibility, and often more cost-effective expansion as storage needs grow. So that would tilt in favor of the Pro-6.
Not sure how much power consumption matters to you, but also am not sure how much difference there would be for the same disks. @Sandshark might have an opinion here.
I do have a Pro-6 in service myself (I use it as a backup NAS), and so far I have had no hardware issues with it. But the Pro4 and the Pro6 are both old platforms - Netgear stopped manufacturing/selling them in 2013. So one huge factor here is how long they will last.
Re: increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better op
If you use RAID5 on the Pro6 with 6 drives, then you would not be able to migrate the drives back into the Pro4 and recover anything, because you need at least 5 drives. Your options to be able to do that are to limit yourself to 5 drives or use RAID6 with 6 drives (both of which can be recovered from 4).
But you also could purchase any OS6 based ReadyNAS with at least 6 slots and use that for recovery or use a program like ReclaiMe, though that would required being able to hook at least five of the drives to a PC. The NAS would have to be used, of course, and there is always risk there. Personally, I have a spare NAS in storage should it be needed, and I already have full data backup. But that way, I know I have a working replacement.
Something else you may want to consider is making one of the NAS a backup system, as that protects you from volume loss as well as hardware failure.
Re: increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better op
thank you very much for the 5/6 raid/disk scenarios. i'm not sure how we would have approached this in practice.
but actually, the one suggestion that appeared in both of your responses and which is beginning to tip the balance, is a backup nas. will need to run it past a couple of others first, but with there being no limits on expansion under os6, it's starting to look like a comfortable home run for a p4 expansion and then, using the p6 as backup.
any particular tips on how you've set up the p6 to run your backups stephen please?
any particular tips on how you've set up the p6 to run your backups stephen please?
SMB and other file sharing protocols are disabled. I have rsync backup jobs for each share that run on schedule. These run on the pro 6 (so are "pull" backups). In addition I use custom snapshots each share that have 3 months retention. That gives me versioning.
Also, the Pro 6 runs on a power schedule, so it is normally off.
I have made a couple of adjustments to the auto power off script on the NAS, to hold off a scheduled shutdown if a maintenance task is running. I've also added a script that makes a log zip file when the NAS boots up, and stores that on the main NAS. That lets me check the logs when the Pro-6 is turned off.
One goal in my setup is that I want to be able to immediately shift to using the backup NAS if the main NAS fails. All I'd need to do is disable the power schedule and enable SMB.
Re: increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better op
My backups are actually rather similar, but I have two local backup NAS, not just one. That's because when I upgrade a drive in the primary one to add space, I relegate the old one to a backup NAS, replacing a smaller one there. So each backup NAS never has as much available space as the main one. The "Documents" share and one containing my Veracrypt volume files, which contain my most critical data, are backed up to both I also have remote backup of critical items, but if I need that one, I likely won't have a local NAS to which I can restore since they are the "disaster recovery" backup. Most of my backup jobs are rsync and pull from the primary so the backup NAS can be on a power schedule. The share that contains my Veracrypt volumes uses ReadyDR because it's more efficient with that type of file.
Like @StephenB I have a script on each backup that creates a log and rsync's it to my main NAS, but I also create an HDSentinel report and send it. I've not modified the power-down script, though I probably should. Those reports are also created for the main NAS hourly and are backed up in one of the standard backup jobs. That way i have a very recent log to look at to get clues as to what happened, should a NAS fail completely and logs cannot be retrieved from it. All the logs are in a dedicated directory and the script that creates them also deletes any files in that directory that are >7 days old, so they don't just accumulate.
I have a script that maps all my Windows drive letters instead of using the "persistent" option, and I have an alternate that will map from the backups instead if I have to take the primary offline (though I must execute it manually). I also have nothing enabled on the local backups other than rsync, but permissions are set for SMB in case I have to enable it and do the swap. I've not modified the shut-down script My remote NAS is not on a power schedule because it's at my brother's house and I let him use it to back up his computer and then I copy that to one of my backup NAS.
In my case, all of the local NAS have the same capability. So if the main NAS has a hardware failure and the volume is unscathed, I can swap over all the drives and use that until I pull my spare NAS (also same capability) out of storage.
Now, one might wonder if my data is that valuable. Well, some of it is. But my time is also valuable if I have to put a backup in place because of a failure of the primary, so I've made that swap pretty easy, but not as easy as it would be if there was but one backup NAS with all data on it.
My backups are actually rather similar, but I have two local backup NAS, not just one.
Like @StephenB I have a script on each backup that creates a log and rsync's it to my main NAS, but I also create an HDSentinel report and send it.
FWIW, I was over-simplifying a bit, as I also have multiple backup NAS. In my case the power schedules are set up so that they power up on different days of the week, and the backup jobs only run on those days (even if a maintenance task keeps the NAS running the next day). That required another small script adjustment to the cron scripts.
And I do also use hdsentinal, and that copy that with the logs.
I also see the need for one off-site backup - presently I am doing that with the crashplan backup service on a Windows PC that has the NAS data volume mapped to a drive letter. I might move one of the NAS to a relative's home - if I do that, I'll likely use ZeroTier for connectivity.
Now, one might wonder if my data is that valuable. Well, some of it is. But my time is also valuable
Totally agree on both counts. Some personal data couldn't be replaced. Other files (music, etc) could be, but it would take a lot of work. So I do scale up by backup capacity as I increase the storage on my main NAS.
Re: increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better op
OK, so our backup plans are quite a bit similar. I also run my backups on alternate days (another reason some of the most critical stuff is on both).
We are drifting more and more off the subject of the thread, but how do you handle insuring maintenance tasks are done on a machine that only powers on every other day (or third at the end of the week) based on the day of the week and not the date? Did you manually create the cron job? When Netgear stupidly made it so scheduling maintenance tasks couldn't be done every X weeks and you had to schedule monthly or yearly based on the date, they screwed up the ability to sync maintenance tasks to a power-on schedule. Of course, they also screwed up businesses being able to insure the tasks were done on a weekend. Unfortunately, cron doesn't realize a task was skipped and start it when the NAS powers up. I schedule them for two months in a row, knowing that (except Feb/March) that the 15th (for example) won't be a Saturday two months in a row. And then turn the NAS on earlier on Saturday so it's typically the only date that it's on at the time the maintenance task is scheduled.
We are drifting more and more off the subject of the thread, but how do you handle insuring maintenance tasks are done on a machine that only powers on every other day (or third at the end of the week) based on the day of the week and not the date? Did you manually create the cron job?
Re: increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better op
on the topic of backups, data and time is indeed valuable, and having a distinct goal of what it is that needs to be achieved (i.e. redundancy and minimal downtime) is very much reflected in your processes. thank you for expanding upon this.
interestingly, we too had used hdsentinel in the past, but only as a standalone application. what steps are required to integrate this with a backup nas?
presumably both your primary nas boxes are on permanently. regarding your power scheduling and turning the backup nas boxes on/off, is the os6 built-in function sufficient enough for this, or have you another method? there was a point where we used the power scheduling feature in os6 but from memory, found it quite temperamental – possibly due to the way we had it configured.
i appreciate this is slightly off-topic, but may i ask which model you both use as your primary nas? after the security issues with smb 1.0 we considered upgrading the p4, but didn’t. if we were in the market for a new primary nas where security and expandability were our key requirements, any particular recommendations?
i appreciate this is slightly off-topic, but may i ask which model you both use as your primary nas? after the security issues with smb 1.0 we considered upgrading the p4, but didn’t. if we were in the market for a new primary nas where security and expandability were our key requirements, any particular recommendations?
My primary NAS is an RN526.
As far as purchases go, Netgear is clearly exiting the NAS business. The newest ReadyNAS platforms are 6 years old now, and use a deprecated version of Debian Linux. So I would suggest looking elsewhere for a new primary NAS. If I were looking to purchase now, I'd start by looking at
Synology
Qnap
Asustor
in no particular order. I haven't owned any of these, so don't treat this as a recommendation - it's just a starting point.
I'd also consider pairing a small form factor PC and using a thunderbolt enclosure for the disks. More work to set up, but more flexible. Of course you could alternatively go with a rackmount server. But those tend to be noisy, and I don't have a suitable place to put one.
presumably both your primary nas boxes are on permanently. regarding your power scheduling and turning the backup nas boxes on/off, is the os6 built-in function sufficient enough for this, or have you another method? there was a point where we used the power scheduling feature in os6 but from memory, found it quite temperamental – possibly due to the way we had it configured.
I haven't needed to modify the power scheduling, as my power schedule is set for days of the week (which the GUI handles).
I have had to make adjustments to the scheduling of the maintenance functions, as described above. I've also adjusted autopoweroff, to ensure that power-off is always delayed if a maintenance task is running. More information on that is here:
interestingly, we too had used hdsentinel in the past, but only as a standalone application. what steps are required to integrate this with a backup nas?
You can simply install hdsentinel with apt-get. Details on how I've integrated this with my scheduled log script are here:
Re: increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better op
My primary NAS is a ReadyData RD5200 converted to ReadyNASOS6. My backups are RN4200V2's, also converted to OS6. Those are rack-mount units, and I do have a spare room in which they reside, so the noise is no issue. I also use the built-in power scheduling.
Some time back, Netgear added a "State" option for the power schedule in addition to the original "Event" based one. If you tried to use it before that addition, you ought to look at it again.
Re: increasing disk capacity greater than 16tb in os6 - pro 4 or pro 6? which would be the better op
starting points are extremely helpful so thank you stephen. good to learn about the state/event scenario sandshark; a revisit may well be justified. thank you.
we still have a some digging to do to find the next iteration of a permanent solution, but for now, our questions have been answered so thank you very much stephen/sandshark for such comprehensive replies.
