NETGEAR is aware of a growing number of phone and online scams. To learn how to stay safe click here.
Forum Discussion
Android 8 Crashes Orbi
I've been tracking down an issue where my Orbi just suddenly drops wifi and reboots. I've isolated it to be associated with an Android device running 8.0 or higher. And I've proven it turning off w...
No that is not true. This seems like it might be more related to the December security update. 8.1 definitely didn't resolve any issues. Google has recognized that there is an issue on their end that they are working on. This is also NOT a mesh only issue. My older R7000 is now installed again and it is not rebooting. However, it is also behind a couple firmware updates. This is clearly a 2 prong problem with something with Android causing panics on the router and it allowing itself to reboot because of the phone. 8.1 did not solve any problems. Most people didn't notice anything UNTIL they were on 8.1 (many received 8.1 and December security update in the same update). Since Galaxy owners are now reporting problems on Android 7 (not 8) and December security update, this seems like a very recent problem wrapped around that security update. Please stop saying that 8.1 fixed problems because it surely did not and Google has even recognized it and is looking into it.
I agree, it is definitely not limited to Oreo since my phone is running 7.1 was also causing Orbi to reboot multiple times a day.
There is also definitely an issue with the Orbi Firmware since a client shouldn't be able to cause the router to reboot. I installed an older version of the firmware (1.11.0.20) as someone else had mentioned here and have not experienced any reboots for the past few days. This is a dramatic improvement from last week when my router would reboot every time an alarm would go off or when I stopped using my phone for a few minutes and picked it up again.
- You are correct. This is a 2 prong problem that both Google and Netgear need to address. Clients shouldn't cause router panics and rebooting. I couldn't wait for a fix as I was still in my Orbi return window with my vendor. So I sent my Orbi back 2 days ago. :-(
Now, I must also comment that I absolutely hate Netgear's policy of only 90 days of free call-in support even though there is a 1 year warranty on the product. How does that work? What if I call on day 91? They will want to charge me to call in? What if I don't know if my item is defective or there is some other problem? Do I still have to pay for a support call? This seems like a very weird policy. Unfortunately because of this fact and all these issues, I had to return the item.
Only1Z wrote:
You are correct. This is a 2 prong problem that both Google and Netgear need to address. Clients shouldn't cause router panics and rebooting. I couldn't wait for a fix as I was still in my Orbi return window with my vendor. So I sent my Orbi back 2 days ago. :-(
Now, I must also comment that I absolutely hate Netgear's policy of only 90 days of free call-in support even though there is a 1 year warranty on the product. How does that work? What if I call on day 91? They will want to charge me to call in? What if I don't know if my item is defective or there is some other problem? Do I still have to pay for a support call? This seems like a very weird policy. Unfortunately because of this fact and all these issues, I had to return the item.That's the worst part about the whole thing. My Orbi was well outside of the 90 day window so I would've had to PAY to talk to support about an issue that has everything to do with them and nothing to do with me. It's this sort of poor policy decision making, coupled with their gross incompetence that made me take the easy way out and trash my Orbi will paying another $500 or so to get a new Eero system up and running.
Orbi worked flawlessly for me for many months. Then, out of the blue they completely hose up the firmware and then they expect ME to pay for a support call? LOL!! Absurd and completely unacceptable. COMPLETELY.
- Any way to get one of the big websites to look at this thread. I know Androidpolice wrote something on it but the article didn't really take off. I noticed companies move it faster if people are talking about it on the internet. Also in our Facebook private group in our neighborhood when people ask for recommendations, I point them to this thread so they can make an informed decision. Feels like that's all we can do. Just warn others. It's not like I can invest in another expensive system right now. I know some of you own two or three different mesh systems.
FWIW... I currently have a LinkSys WRT3200AC tri band which is experiencing exactly the same issues with Android as you folks
here are. They actually had a nasty firmware / router controller chipset issue whereby a TON of users (myself included) are receiving
replacement routers free of charge... I was actually considering dumping LinkSys for an Orbi but when I read this about the Android
issues here as well I'm thinking maybe its an Android issue and not so much a router issue.... just thought I would throw my 2 cents in
what do you think would an Orbi work ok with latest Android?..
Mike
vreynolds wrote:
Any way to get one of the big websites to look at this thread. I know Androidpolice wrote something on it but the article didn't really take off. I noticed companies move it faster if people are talking about it on the internet. Also in our Facebook private group in our neighborhood when people ask for recommendations, I point them to this thread so they can make an informed decision. Feels like that's all we can do. Just warn others. It's not like I can invest in another expensive system right now. I know some of you own two or three different mesh systems.Would be great if someone like Engadget or Wired picked up on it. I'll try to contact them to see if I can get their attention. I hate shaming someone into fixing a problem but this has gotten ridiculous. I'm not even asking for my money back or anything - I just want Netgear to own up to their issue and get it fixed so that others don't suffer my same fate. Luckily though - any newcomers can easily return the product when they realize it doesn't work. But for people like me, where it worked for many months... not only am I outside of the return window but I'm also well outside of free customer support. Ridiculous!
MikeT57 wrote:FWIW... I currently have a LinkSys WRT3200AC tri band which is experiencing exactly the same issues with Android as you folks
here are. They actually had a nasty firmware / router controller chipset issue whereby a TON of users (myself included) are receiving
replacement routers free of charge... I was actually considering dumping LinkSys for an Orbi but when I read this about the Android
issues here as well I'm thinking maybe its an Android issue and not so much a router issue.... just thought I would throw my 2 cents in
what do you think would an Orbi work ok with latest Android?..
Mike
Interesting to hear that other routers are having similar issues. But unlike Netgear, at least Linksys is owning up to it and doing the right thing.
But to answer your question - the answer is no. That's the exact issue - using Orbi's most recent firmware AND using the latest Android OS is what is causing the issue.
Ha... you're right.. I asked a question I already pretty much had the answer to..... yeah now I am thinking this is NOT a router issue
but an Android issue... my Galaxy S8 and Nexus Tablet both knock my router (Linksys) offline when I connect .. my wife's iPhone8
has no issues whatsoever....
MikeT57 wrote:FWIW... I currently have a LinkSys WRT3200AC tri band which is experiencing exactly the same issues with Android as you folks here are. They actually had a nasty firmware / router controller chipset issue whereby a TON of users (myself included) are receiving
replacement routers free of charge...
You actually bring up a good point - this could very well be a physical hardware problem, and not simply software (although, the WRT3200AC and Orbi use different chipsets...)
yeah... the LinkSys router uses a Marvell chipset as I believe the controller chip that switches between 2.4 and 5ghz bands... and from what
I read on the LinkSys forums Marvell did not release the source code to Linksys so that is giving them kittens. But I think the bigger issue
is Android update ..... 2 different manufacturers suffering the same issues regarding Android device connectivity?... well I think we know
the common denominator now.... as mentioned earlier my wife's iPhone and our Windows PC's were not experiencing problems, but my
wireless HP Laserjet was disconnecting ....... I believe peripherals use the 2.4 ghz band...
Very frustrating indeed, so to all you NetGear guys and gals, you are not alone ......... cheers
Mike in N.E. Ohio
- At least Linksys is doing something about it. Meanwhile Netgear won't even aknowledged the issue.
But even if Android is partially responsible it's still ultimately the router's fault. It's like when a car rear ends another car, it's always the fault of the car in the back. Like many others, I've taken the jump away from the Orbi and just installed an eero system. So far, things are looking good. I've re-enabled the WiFi on all of our Samsung S7's and so far no reboots. It's early and the system has only been online for a few hours now so to be fair I will reserve final judgement. I went the route of one eero and two beacons. My coverage is better than it was with the orbi but that may be in part to the fact I have 3 units instead of just the 2 orbi units. I'm currently running approximately 40 wireless devices of which I have about a dozen IP cameras (over half are HD).
To get past a few of the "missing" features, I picked up a cheap Raspberry PI and loaded the NoIP client so I can update my dynamic dns host, I've loaded PIVPN which is running openvpn and this is working perfectly fine. I expected as much since the orbi runs openvpn as well. Lastly, since I already have the PI, I figured I would load PI-Hole. I actually had this working on the orbi...sort of. Because of the way the orbi handles DNS, all of the logging in PI-Hole showed as coming from the orbi router IP. With this hooked up to the eero my logging is working as it should be, idenifying the traffic associated to each IP address.
Lastly, I'm not sure if it was a firmware issue or what however about a month ago I ran into problems with one of my Foscam cameras where it just would not work on the orbi wifi. I figured this was problem with the Foscam. For the fun of it, I plugged it in after I installed the eero and the camera appears to be working fine. I unplugged, moved and replugged about 5 times to test it out and it came back online each time. We'll see if it remains working.
I thought I would just toss this info out in case anyone was on the fence like I was. Now I just need to find a buyer for the orbi.
Jeff
So here's an interesting datapoint - it has not a damned thing to do with wireless.
Steps to reproduce:
- Hook up any access point you like (I chose a Google OnHub, take your pick) to your main Orbi set to AP/bridged mode with a unique SSID
- Connect your "problem" phone to the new AP's SSID
- Watch as the Orbi reboots, even though there's no wireless traffic involving your phone
Thus, we can come to some conclusions:
- It's not the wireless driver
- It IS something in kernel-land, hence the panic, likely tied to the TCP/IP stack proper
- It has absolutely nothing to do with mesh, it's "just" a kernel bug in the specific kernel Netgear is using on Orbi
Whatever the kernel bug is, it's present on both 2.0 and 2.1 beyond any doubt.
Hope this helps (Netgear),
Rodney
rhester72 wrote:So here's an interesting datapoint - it has not a damned thing to do with wireless.
Steps to reproduce:
- Hook up any access point you like (I chose a Google OnHub, take your pick) to your main Orbi set to AP/bridged mode with a unique SSID
- Connect your "problem" phone to the new AP's SSID
- Watch as the Orbi reboots, even though there's no wireless traffic involving your phone
Thus, we can come to some conclusions:
- It's not the wireless driver
- It IS something in kernel-land, hence the panic, likely tied to the TCP/IP stack proper
- It has absolutely nothing to do with mesh, it's "just" a kernel bug in the specific kernel Netgear is using on Orbi
Whatever the kernel bug is, it's present on both 2.0 and 2.1 beyond any doubt.
Hope this helps (Netgear),
Rodney
Great post Rodney. Very insightful. I'm guessing that Netgear KNOWS this is a hardware issue and that's exactly why they are being quiet. I think they are hoping that the next Android point release will resolve this issue and their damage will be contained. It's BS. They need to come forward with an aknowledgement and a solution. Hell, even if they'd just say that they are aware of the issue and they think the next Andriod release will solve it that would give people hope. I might have even stayed with Orbi if I knew that forgetting my home network on my Pixel would solve it for some temporary period of time. But with no end in sight, I bailed. Their actions are bordering on criminal. I paid good money for something that doesn't work.
rhester72 wrote:So here's an interesting datapoint - it has not a damned thing to do with wireless.
<snip>
Good stuff. Is there any way to get a packet capture from the OnHub by any chance? Would be interesting to see what sort of traffic is going over the link when the Orbi router decides to panic. Also, I'm curious of what would happen if you connected the OnHub to an Orbi satellite rather than direct to the main router - would the satellite panic, or just the router, or both? If just the router dies, it should be possible to get a packet capture from the satellite.
I wish I had an environment where I could replicate this myself... I hate trying to troubleshoot vicariously through others :) At any rate, good job... it is an interesting data point for sure.
guzzijason wrote:
rhester72 wrote:So here's an interesting datapoint - it has not a damned thing to do with wireless.
<snip>
Good stuff. Is there any way to get a packet capture from the OnHub by any chance? Would be interesting to see what sort of traffic is going over the link when the Orbi router decides to panic. Also, I'm curious of what would happen if you connected the OnHub to an Orbi satellite rather than direct to the main router - would the satellite panic, or just the router, or both? If just the router dies, it should be possible to get a packet capture from the satellite.
I wish I had an environment where I could replicate this myself... I hate trying to troubleshoot vicariously through others :) At any rate, good job... it is an interesting data point for sure.Unfortunately, OnHub doesn't support capture or port spanning, so without a tap (which I don't have in my kitchen *LOL*), no way to capture.
Doing the capture from either Orbi device is useless once the panic happens...and the interesting packet is almost certainly the one that will be lost in the panic.
Just want to throw in a "me too" and provide some more data points:
1 x RBR50 with 2 x RBS50, all on firmware Rev V2.1.1.16 but I had the same issue with V2.1.1.12 and V2.0.0.74.
The RBR50 is in AP mode. Router is Asus RT-AC68U with WiFi switched off and dual stack IPv4 and IPv6.
*** I do not have any Pixel device on my network !! ***
Network clients are a wide variety of Android and IOS devices. I can see the RBR50 reboot when a Samsung A7 running Android 7.0 is booted or wakes up.
So some data points:
- Orbi in AP mode
- Dual Stack IPv4 and IPv6
- Android 7.0 clients (Samsung A7) WILL crash my Orbi, too. For me it is not just Oreo related as claimed here.
- IOS devices, desktops and laptops never cause it
- There is a Chromecast Ultra on the network. Maybe when an Android device with Google Home wakes up and scans for Chromecast it does something ?
- I just replicated it with the Oreo devices (Samsung S8+ and Moto X4) powered off. Toggled off WiFi on a Samsung A7 a bunch of times and eventually the Orbis went to reboot
I have like 120 apps installed on these devices so if we all compare who has what apps and find some overlap we could maybe narrow it down and test without these apps installed.
turnerm05 wrote:
At least Linksys is doing something about it. Meanwhile Netgear won't even aknowledged the issue.
But even if Android is partially responsible it's still ultimately the router's fault. It's like when a car rear ends another car, it's always the fault of the car in the back.Did you report it to Netgear and create an actual ticket ? They don't often acknowledge stuff we post here. I am about to create a ticket. Been procrastinating for weeks because I know first level support will be a drag (rather go for a root canal treatment)...
I have the same Orbi setup and firmware as you, (RBK53 currrently on latest) and also using in AP mode with an Asus RT-AC68U as the router. I'm running Merlin 380.69 on the Asus.
I have also seen speculation that this may be caused by Chromecasts and multicast routing causing an overflow in the router and rebooting.
To add a few data points:
- I have 2 Pixel 2 XL phones, both on 8.1. This issue did not start until end of November or beginning of December. This is when I updated the first Pixel to 8.1, but also corresponds with adding new Chromecast enabled devices to my network.
- I'm able to experience an almost certain correlation with Pixels waking or joining/leaving the network and when the Orbi reboots.
- I have 2 gen 2 Chromecasts, 1 Chromecast Ultra, 1 Chromecast Audio, 4 Google Homes, and 1 Google Home Mini on the network.
- I've experienced 1-3 days of network stability without knowing why. It's always followed by a return to frequent disconnects. Like others, turning the Pixel wifi off resulted in network stability, until the exact moment I turned it back on and connected to the network. As we're now speculating, this could be due to Chromecast discovery.
All I know is that this isn't my problem to solve, so sitting on here and troubleshooting with you folks feels pointless and frustrating. I'm glad to supply any information or logs that can help solve this, but I'm just going to get progressively more angry as we all bang our heads together and hear nothing from Netgear.
jasonjason wrote:I have the same Orbi setup and firmware as you, (RBK53 currrently on latest) and also using in AP mode with an Asus RT-AC68U as the router. I'm running Merlin 380.69 on the Asus.
I have also seen speculation that this may be caused by Chromecasts and multicast routing causing an overflow in the router and rebooting.
I have opened a ticket with Netgear now just for statistical tracking. I do not expect the ticket to make it to 3rd level support where it belongs...
I used Merlin but currently on a fork of Shibby firmware (kille72 2017.3) but that seems to not be relavent here as the other people are using other routers and have the same problem with Orbi in AP mode and Android devices causing a reboot.
My two suspects are IPv6 dual stack, specifically DHCPv6 incompatibilities. Oh wait... Android only does SLAAC so we can forget DHCPv6.
And not many people here mentioned IPv6 so I think I am on the wrong track. Something about Chromecast discovery could be feasible. I mainly use Roku so unplugging my Chromecast won't ruin my lifestyle. I will take the Chromecast out of the netork now and put my 12 Android devices into reboot cycle. See if I can make Orbi crash when Android devices wake and NO Chromecast is being discovered.
I pray it's something simple like this and not some obcure 3rd party android app some of us have installed.
I just powered off everything.
Then booted cable modem. Waited 2 mins. Booted Asus RT-AC68U, waited 2 mins. Booted up Orbi RBK53, waited 5 mins.
Now with the Chromecast Ultra completely out of the picture I cold booted 6 Android devices, waiting a minute inbetween each one, pinging the RBS50 and watching it's indicator light to see if it stays up.
The result of this one test:
Samsung A7 #1 - Android 7.0, no recent security patches coz... Samsung.... - no crash
Samsung A7 #2 - no crash
Samsung A7 #3 - no crash
Samsung A7 #4 - no crash
iPad Air2 IOS 11.2 (just for the hell of it) - no crash
Samsung S8+ Android 7.0 November 2017 - no crash
Moto X4 Android 7.1.1 November 2017 - no crash
I then booted up a bunch of Cisco VOIP phones, Nest and Amazon Alexa products and Arlo Q cameras - no crash.
I will now repeat the test with the Chromecast on the network.
I doubt it's related, but I am IPv6 dual-stack SLAAC as well.
Rodney
- logdump good troubleshooting, but I think the crash happens after a long sleep/wake of wifi in my opinion. Maybe not long sleep but I think it's related to sleep. But I am curious about your test results anyway. I am outside my return window so I am stuck with the Orbi till they hopefully have a fix.
OK - I'm really mystified now. Just took out wifi again while on a static IP, so DHCP isn't it.
I *am* dual-stack, as indicated, but I find it hard to believe that IPv6 is a component of this (and I've no means of proving or disproving it regardless).
The only 100% foolproof way I've found of stopping the problem is simply not connect the phone to my home network, at all, period.
I have done some more testing but now whenever I reply to this thread my findings are censored by the moderator. Very strange.
My replies keep getting removed and end up in https://community.netgear.com/t5/premod/moderationitemspage/tab/rejected
rhester72 wrote:OK - I'm really mystified now. Just took out wifi again while on a static IP, so DHCP isn't it.
I *am* dual-stack, as indicated, but I find it hard to believe that IPv6 is a component of this (and I've no means of proving or disproving it regardless).
The only 100% foolproof way I've found of stopping the problem is simply not connect the phone to my home network, at all, period.
Agree. Outside of trashing the Orbi, that IS the only solution and it's completely unacceptable. And unless you're within the return window OR the 90 day free support window then you have to pay money to even have Netgear help you with the issue. Seriously - how ridiculous is that???