Guess the old adage if it ain't broke don't fix it applied here. After years of use I decided to try and switch my Orby router and satellites to an ethernet backhaul from Wi-Fi. The Orbi router is connected directly to a cable modem and connected to my intranet via a ethernet switch (User manual p15 bottom). That has worked for years and the satellitess have been in series via a WiFi backhaul. I connected the two satellites via ethernet to the same intranet network. After a few moments, the router indicated that the satellites switched from WiFi to wired in the Network Map and they were each linked directly to the router (in parallel) It appeared to work at first but then I got odd results. One satellite. Indicated that it was connected to a number of devices whereas the second satellite wasn't connected to any wireless devices. I rebooted the router, satellites and the switch but then I had trouble connecting to the router. Some devices in the house could not connect I puulled the ethernet cables from the satellites rebooted the router and satellites and everything is working again. Is there a step that I am missing? I really want to switch to ethernet because I have heard it will work so much better (though it works great as it is). Paul

It appears you have configured ethernet backhaul correctly. The Orbi 'app' is often criticized for not displaying connection status correctly. I often ask, "what does the Orbi web interface show? (http://orbilogin.net) Does the web interface match the app display? As to ethernet backhaul being "so much better", that depends primarily on the speed of the internet connection. If the internet connection is under 500mb, it may be very difficult to notice a significant difference. The second satellite that was "Daisy Chained" through another satellite to reach the router will show the most improvement, because traffic now takes 'one less hop'. The big differences between ethernet and WiFi are: Ethernet is inherently full duplex. Traffic can flow in both directions at the same time at nearly 1000mb/sec. (I routinely measure over 900mb/sec over ethernet using iPerf3 - a common throughput measuring tool.) WiFi is radio traffic where only one device may transmit at a time. Every other device must wait until transmission stops before attempting to transmit. If there are 20 devices connected to the same WIFi channel, then 19 of them must remain silent when one is talking. WiFi signal strength diminishes with distance and building materials. Whereas the Orbi RBR50 claims a maximum transmission rate of 1,733mb/sec, notice that footnote in tiny print. In my tests, an Orbi router and satellite within 10 ft. of each other with no walls between them never achieve even half of that speed. In a typical installation, it is much more common to see link rates in the 600-700mb range. WiFi has tremendous overhead in the form of Management Frames. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.11_Frame_Types Every access point sends out Beacon frames as often as 10 times a second, and that's just one type of management frame.With one router and two satellites broadcasting a primary and guest WiFi on the same channel (channel 48 for 5G), that could result in 10 times 3 times 2 = 60 Beacon frames every second. WiFi is shared. If your neighbors have similar WiFi networks, their access point and user devices may be sharing the same channel, creating the same overhead, and waiting for their turn to broadcast. So, ethernet connections for both user devices and backhaul links are far superior in terms of maximum capability than typical WiFi links. But, does it matter in real life? Streaming 4K video requires about 25mb/sec, which is probably well within the capability of 5G WiFi as long as you and the neighbors are not attempting to stream 20 videos at the same time. All that said, if it was practical to connect my Orbi satellites with ethernet, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Random thoughts: Firmware V2.7.3.22 is a contentious subject on the forum. I experience no problems with it on either of my two Orbi RBR50 systems, but there have been many posts describing everything from continuous disconnections to outright failure. There are many users who sincerely believe that a previous firmware version is 'stable' and V2.7.3.22 is not and they want to return to that stable version. This is an complicated task because Netgear will almost immediately force an update back to V2.7.3.22. These users have resorted to some drastic measures to combat this. (Some have installed routers ahead of the Orbi to block update access. Another has signed up for OpenDNS to block updates. One has even recompiled the Orbi source code with a change that blocks the updates!)If your Orbi was not functional, reverting firmware and blocking updates appears to be the only solution. My sense is that the system is working in terms of actual user devices and the issue is that the Orbi does not correctly list devices that are connected to the network. And, this happens only when a satellite backhaul uses ethernet rather than WiFi. It appears to me that this is a question of "which is more important?" (a) getting maximum performance, or (b) having device information that is correct. Thousands of customers never look at their WiFi systems. Heck, from what I see on my neighborhood WiFi scans, plenty of customers do not even change the default WiFi credentials that came with their systems. For sure they are not puttering around with static IPs, etc. I have 200mb service from Spectrum and three satellites all backhauled over WiFi. I see absolutely no performance issues, but then I am not a 'power user'. We have not 'cut the cord' and thus still get television over cable rather than internet. My guess is that we could easily stream two 4K video streams and still not notice any problems. If we had four people playing World of Bunny Hop while streaming multiple TV's, etc. etc., maybe a wired backhaul would make a difference. Another example is when I connect directly to a satellite and display Connected Devices. (One of my pet peeves. Devices "Attach" to the router, but "Connect" to satellites. and no one in Netgear has ever told the engineers, "Hey. Pick one term and stick with it.")Anyway, satellites seem to think the names of a lot of devices are "Unknown". Part of me says, "If this is worth putting on the satellite menu, it should be correct." My other side thinks that on a scale of 1 to 10, it ranks pretty low. Geez. Ask a simple question and some old fart rambles on and on, but has no solution to offer. Sorry.

CrimpOn Fron one old fart to another, I find your replies educational though I agree the answer evades both of us. I have finally switched both satellites to wired backhaul and I can still control devices that do not show up on the web or iPhone interface. I have had to reset a few of the WiFi devices to the network but they then operate fine once that is done. I dread to think what I will need to do if I have to reboot the router. Thata is where I got into trouble last time. But for now, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" prevails with the new configuration even though the web and iPhone app claims devices are not connected. If I learn anything new, I will post it here. Paul

CriopOn Thank you for a great reply. I want to clarify a few things that you mentioned. The place that I noticed the changes was actually in the web interface (Orbilogin.com) with the router. Second, I actually have 200 Mbs download speed so the wired backhaul is really going to make a positive difference especially for the satellite 2. My network is a mixture of 1 Gb ethernet and Wi-Fi. I will try to direct connecting the most distant satellite (#2) since that should make the greatest difference, however I still do not understand why the router was unable to connect to the Internet after rebooting the router, the satellite, and the main switch. There are also two 8 port switches that the satellites connect to. These switches share ethernet connection with a TiVo, a TV, a Blu-ray disc player, and an Apple TV. I also have a mixture of fixed IPs in the network with the range of DHCP defined between 60 and 200. I will check to see if there is a IP conflict after connecting satellite #2 I will update this post once I've tried a few other options. Happy Thanksgiving Paul

The saga goes on.... I connected the distant satellite (2) to ethernet and orbilogin.net shows that it is wired with a good backhaul status however there are many devices that no longer appear on the web page. the iPhone app shows the status of these missing devices as offline. I am able to use terminal to log into one mac mini with a fixed IP that shows as offline and so a sudo restart. I am able attach to it with either via IP or with "Network" in the finder to see the screen. Also interesting, a hard wired Apple TV, sitting right next to Satellite 1 still using a WiFi backhaul, cannot be seen by either that web interface or the iPhone app. I am able to ping it. I am reluctant to reset the devices to factory. It took me a long time to get this right since so many of my devices have fixed IPs and I have a fixed IP Internet connection. BTW, firmware V2..7.3.22. "the latest" Any ideas? Paul

Switching backhaul from wifi to wired caused problems...

15 Replies

CrimpOn
Guru - Experienced User
Nov 24, 2021
It appears you have configured ethernet backhaul correctly. The Orbi 'app' is often criticized for not displaying connection status correctly. I often ask, "what does the Orbi web interface show? (http://orbilogin.net) Does the web interface match the app display?

As to ethernet backhaul being "so much better", that depends primarily on the speed of the internet connection. If the internet connection is under 500mb, it may be very difficult to notice a significant difference. The second satellite that was "Daisy Chained" through another satellite to reach the router will show the most improvement, because traffic now takes 'one less hop'.

The big differences between ethernet and WiFi are:

Ethernet is inherently full duplex. Traffic can flow in both directions at the same time at nearly 1000mb/sec. (I routinely measure over 900mb/sec over ethernet using iPerf3 - a common throughput measuring tool.)

WiFi is radio traffic where only one device may transmit at a time. Every other device must wait until transmission stops before attempting to transmit. If there are 20 devices connected to the same WIFi channel, then 19 of them must remain silent when one is talking.

WiFi signal strength diminishes with distance and building materials. Whereas the Orbi RBR50 claims a maximum transmission rate of 1,733mb/sec, notice that footnote in tiny print. In my tests, an Orbi router and satellite within 10 ft. of each other with no walls between them never achieve even half of that speed. In a typical installation, it is much more common to see link rates in the 600-700mb range.

WiFi has tremendous overhead in the form of Management Frames.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.11_Frame_Types
Every access point sends out Beacon frames as often as 10 times a second, and that's just one type of management frame.
With one router and two satellites broadcasting a primary and guest WiFi on the same channel (channel 48 for 5G), that could result in 10 times 3 times 2 = 60 Beacon frames every second.

WiFi is shared. If your neighbors have similar WiFi networks, their access point and user devices may be sharing the same channel, creating the same overhead, and waiting for their turn to broadcast.

So, ethernet connections for both user devices and backhaul links are far superior in terms of maximum capability than typical WiFi links. But, does it matter in real life? Streaming 4K video requires about 25mb/sec, which is probably well within the capability of 5G WiFi as long as you and the neighbors are not attempting to stream 20 videos at the same time.

All that said, if it was practical to connect my Orbi satellites with ethernet, I would do it in a heartbeat.
- PKleeberg
  Tutor
  Nov 25, 2021
  CriopOn
  
  Thank you for a great reply. I want to clarify a few things that you mentioned.
  
  The place that I noticed the changes was actually in the web interface (Orbilogin.com) with the router. Second, I actually have 200 Mbs download speed so the wired backhaul is really going to make a positive difference especially for the satellite 2. My network is a mixture of 1 Gb ethernet and Wi-Fi.
  
  I will try to direct connecting the most distant satellite (#2) since that should make the greatest difference, however I still do not understand why the router was unable to connect to the Internet after rebooting the router, the satellite, and the main switch. There are also two 8 port switches that the satellites connect to. These switches share ethernet connection with a TiVo, a TV, a Blu-ray disc player, and an Apple TV.
  
  I also have a mixture of fixed IPs in the network with the range of DHCP defined between 60 and 200. I will check to see if there is a IP conflict after connecting satellite #2
  
  I will update this post once I've tried a few other options.
  
  Happy Thanksgiving
  
  Paul
  - PKleeberg
    Tutor
    Nov 25, 2021
    The saga goes on....
    
    I connected the distant satellite (2) to ethernet and orbilogin.net shows that it is wired with a good backhaul status however there are many devices that no longer appear on the web page. the iPhone app shows the status of these missing devices as offline. I am able to use terminal to log into one mac mini with a fixed IP that shows as offline and so a sudo restart. I am able attach to it with either via IP or with "Network" in the finder to see the screen.
    
    Also interesting, a hard wired Apple TV, sitting right next to Satellite 1 still using a WiFi backhaul, cannot be seen by either that web interface or the iPhone app. I am able to ping it.
    
    I am reluctant to reset the devices to factory. It took me a long time to get this right since so many of my devices have fixed IPs and I have a fixed IP Internet connection.
    
    BTW, firmware V2..7.3.22. "the latest"
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Paul

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Switching backhaul from wifi to wired caused problems...