Hi, sorry if this is a numpty question..I'm running RBR50 in router mode (with 2 RBS50's) behind a Virgin Media (UK) cable modem.My question is: should Orbi be running as DHCP server or should I be leaving the cable router to act as the DHCP server?I've never noticed that it's setup like this until now, so, is probably not an issue as am not aware of any issues per-se. but curiosity got the better of me as to what's good practice.Cheers,DCP

DCP4971 wrote: Hi, sorry if this is a numpty question.. I'm running RBR50 in router mode (with 2 RBS50's) behind a Virgin Media (UK) cable modem. Virgin, and most ISPs in the UK, supply a modem/router. Adding the RBR50 means you have two routers. Two routers on your network can cause headaches. For example, you can end up with local address problems. Among other things, the other router can misdirect addresses that the Netgear router usually handles, such as routerlogin.net or the usual IP address for a router, 192.168.1.1. This explains some of the other drawbacks.What is Double NAT? | Answer | NETGEAR Support How to fix issues with Double NAT | Answer | NETGEAR Support It may be possible to put the modem/router into modem only (bridge) mode and then to use the second device as the router. Sometimes it is easier to put the second router into AP mode. But that has its own drawbacks:Disabled Features on the Router when set to AP Mode | Answer | NETGEAR SupportA lot of people use an Orbi system in AP mode, especially if they have a decent router in front of it. Only you know which of your two routers provides the best features for your needs. You have posted your message in the section of this community given over to General WiFi Routers (Non-Nighthawk & Non-Orbi). (This is easily done, given Netgear's complicated community structure.) Many questions apply to different types of device, so there may be useful responses here, but you might get more help, and find earlier questions and answers specific to your device, in the appropriate section for your hardware. That's probably here: Orbi - NETGEAR CommunitiesI will ask the Netgear moderator to move your message.In the meantime you could visit the support pages:Support | NETGEARFeed in your model number and check the documentation for your hardware. Look at the label on the device for the model number.You may have done this already. I can't tell from your message. I mention it because Netgear stopped supplying printed manuals and CD versions some years ago and people sometimes miss the downloads.

> [...] could this be a sign of an issue as a result of the use of two> routers? [...] Perhaps. If I wanted to be sure, then I might run the experiment,and configure the RBR50 as a wireless access point. Saving the RBR50 settings/configuration file first might makereversion easier later, if desired.> [...] I could use the DMZ functionality that comes with the VM box to> just pass the Orbi traffic straight out. [...] The relevant section in the Orbi User Manual is called "Set up adefault DMZ _server_" for a reason. It affects _incoming_ connections.You could try it, but my expectations would be low in this case. But,as with WAP mode, why trust me when the experiment is so easy to run,and would be much more reliable? > [...] I can play about with the different options [...] That's what I'd do. > [...] I might need to get the family to go out for a bit [...] Stage a catastrophic failure, and diligently "work" on a "solution"?Everyone might leave spontaneously, and you could be a hero.

DCP4971 wrote: Suspect I just need to bite the bullet and move the Virgin box to being Modem only and see how it plays out for a while Have you tracked down the instructions on how to do that? Some of these ISP boxes – think BT – go out of there way to frustrate "modem only" operation. That's why I have three BT modem/routers sitting in their original shrinkwrap. DCP4971 wrote: it just needs a bit of effort to get the Ring etc onto Orbi. THere is a lot of huffing and puffing abut the inability to separate 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz on the Orbi. In reality, it is rarely necessary. But some makers of what the wits call "Internet of Trash" devices are incompetent when it comes to their setup apps. Connect your mobile device to 5GHz and they throw a wobbly because the device they manage works only on 2.4 GHz. If your IoT stuff is talking to the Virgin box, in your shows I would investigate the switch to the Orbi before I played around with the modem. Then you will have the kit working before you pull the plug on the modem/router.

DCP4971 wrote: To be fair to VM, thier boxes are fairly straightforward (if limited in functionality), at least in tracking down the settings Sounds good. I just wanted to give you advance warning. Anyone with a BT Homehub could have wasted hours looking for that setting. DCP4971 wrote: the Arlo cameras/lights are the other - and Arlo throws a massive hissy fit, putting loads of warnings in the app about not working on 5ghz network trying to set them up, but they then work anyhow because there is 2.4ghz network available. Been there, done that, many times. I beta stuff for Arlo and have been down that road. Sounds scarier than it turns out to be. As you say, ignoring the warnings seems to work.

> [...] behind a Virgin Media (UK) cable modem. [...] > [...] leaving the cable router [...] Make up your mind? Is your (unspecified) Virgin gizmo a modem or amodem+router? An actual maker and model number might be more helpfulthan a vague non-description. > [...] what's good practice. Good practice normally is to have one NAT router, not more than one. Do you have any client devices connected (wired or wireless) directlyto your (unspecified) Virgin gizmo, or is the RBR50 the only thing whichis connected to it? If devices connect directly to it (whatever it is),then it includes a NAT router, and you'd probably want to configure theRBR50 as a wireless access point. If all your client devices are connected to the RBR50 (or itsfriends), and if you can configure your (unspecified) Virgin gizmo as amodem-only, then you might want to do that, and make the RBR50 yourrouter.

Orbi (Router Mode) using as DHCP server

12 Replies

antinode
Guru
Jul 27, 2021
> [...] behind a Virgin Media (UK) cable modem. [...]

> [...] leaving the cable router [...]

   Make up your mind? Is your (unspecified) Virgin gizmo a modem or a
modem+router? An actual maker and model number might be more helpful
than a vague non-description.

> [...] what's good practice.

   Good practice normally is to have one NAT router, not more than one.

   Do you have any client devices connected (wired or wireless) directly
to your (unspecified) Virgin gizmo, or is the RBR50 the only thing which
is connected to it? If devices connect directly to it (whatever it is),
then it includes a NAT router, and you'd probably want to configure the
RBR50 as a wireless access point.

   If all your client devices are connected to the RBR50 (or its
friends), and if you can configure your (unspecified) Virgin gizmo as a
modem-only, then you might want to do that, and make the RBR50 your
router.
michaelkenward
Guru
Jul 28, 2021
DCP4971 wrote:

Hi, sorry if this is a numpty question..

I'm running RBR50 in router mode (with 2 RBS50's) behind a Virgin Media (UK) cable modem.

Virgin, and most ISPs in the UK, supply a modem/router. Adding the RBR50 means you have two routers.

Two routers on your network can cause headaches. For example, you can end up with local address problems. Among other things, the other router can misdirect addresses that the Netgear router usually handles, such as routerlogin.net or the usual IP address for a router, 192.168.1.1.

This explains some of the other drawbacks.

What is Double NAT? | Answer | NETGEAR Support

How to fix issues with Double NAT | Answer | NETGEAR Support

It may be possible to put the modem/router into modem only (bridge) mode and then to use the second device as the router. Sometimes it is easier to put the second router into AP mode. But that has its own drawbacks:

Disabled Features on the Router when set to AP Mode | Answer | NETGEAR Support

A lot of people use an Orbi system in AP mode, especially if they have a decent router in front of it. Only you know which of your two routers provides the best features for your needs.

You have posted your message in the section of this community given over to General WiFi Routers (Non-Nighthawk & Non-Orbi). (This is easily done, given Netgear's complicated community structure.)

Many questions apply to different types of device, so there may be useful responses here, but you might get more help, and find earlier questions and answers specific to your device, in the appropriate section for your hardware. That's probably here:

Orbi - NETGEAR Communities

I will ask the Netgear moderator to move your message.

In the meantime you could visit the support pages:

Support | NETGEAR

Feed in your model number and check the documentation for your hardware. Look at the label on the device for the model number.

You may have done this already. I can't tell from your message.

I mention it because Netgear stopped supplying printed manuals and CD versions some years ago and people sometimes miss the downloads.
- DCP4971
  Luminary
  Jul 28, 2021
  Thanks for your really helpful response and for getting my post moved to the right category - it is a rather complicated structure!
  
  So, we do have things operating as two routers. Orbi was rather unstable early on (this was years ago), so I separated certain network items off to sit on the ISP supplied device (Ring Doorbell/security cameras/home alarm system) so they would not be interupted if/when Orbi had a meltdown and, the wife could hop onto the alternate WiFi whilst I rebooted everything. This might not be needed these days, since Orbi is much more stable.
  
  I've always been reluctant to use the Orbi in AP mode as it reduces functionality and the Virgin router is, shall we say, lacking..but is necessary as it's a cable ISP. We use the Guest network, Circle, Access Control that are not available on the other router.
  
  Both routers use their own IP range, Orbi 192.168.1.. and the Virgin router 192.168.0... so, I've always assumed they would be fine.
  
  Having reviewed the links you shared, gaming works through Orbi (my son is surgically attached to the PS5), though, interestingly, when speed testing, I don't get the same network speeds on the PS5 when wired directly to Orbi than I do if we wire directly to the Virgin box (150-250mbps through Orbi (RBR not RBS), >800mbps on Virgin) - could this be a sign of an issue as a result of the use of two routers? It's the only thing that I can see, when wired, that is significantly slower on the Orbi, compared to what I'd expect (for example, my MacMini which is wired generally gets >800mbps). Ok, in the grand scheme of things, 250mbps is flying however you look at it, but it's puzzling why it's not closer to the max speed that other devices get.
  
  Anyhow, thanks again and hopefully this all makes sense.
  
  Cheers,
  - DCP4971
    Luminary
    Jul 28, 2021
    Just had another thought on this, having been doing a bit of research (ok, a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous!).
    
    Given the double nat situation that I seem to have, rather than putting the Virgin router into Modem mode and losing the extra Wifi (wihch is always handy for if/when Orbi has a meltdown), I could use the DMZ functionality that comes with the VM box to just pass the Orbi traffic straight out.
    
    Not sure if this deals with the PS5 speed question (seems I'm not alone in having that issue reading the community a bit) - I might need to get the family to go out for a bit so I can play about with the different options and note any issues that occur..

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Orbi (Router Mode) using as DHCP server