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Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

esaym
Aspirant

WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

I'll try to keep this story as short as possible.

I run a small office and about two years ago I upgraded an older netgear G only access point to a newer WN203. All was well for about a year. Then I started allowing smart phones to connect to this access point. Almost immediately I started noticing random periods of lagginess. Laptops sluggish to browse the internet or even access internal resources etc. I tried tracking down what device was causing it but the only thing that would ever work was to get everyone to restart their phones.

I figured that was just the nature of buying the then cheapest AP that netgear offered. I used it as an excuse to upgrade and I wanted something with 5GHZ.

 

So I bought the WNDAP660. I set it up and flashed to the latest firmware (3.5.20.0). I only have one access point for this office and it is located in the center of the room, rarely getting more than 10 clients connected. I decommissioned the WN203 and gave it away.

 

All was well for a few days with the WNDAP660 but then to my horror I started having problems again. This time instead of getting random periods of lag, I would get random periods of non-connectivity. All clients would be connected with a good signal but nothing could go in or out of the WLAN. I started hunting around again trying to see if removing a certain client would fix the problem but to no avail.

 

After a few weeks of dealing with this with no solution and having removed most of the other clients (I only had a few laptops and my cell phone still connected), it was still happening. The next time it happened again I pulled out my cell phone (Samsung Galaxy S6) and turned off the wifi on it. To my amazement and horror, everything on the entire WLAN regained connectivity. So apparently for the last year, all the issues were caused by my own phone in my pocket. I never suspected it since it is an expensive phone.

 

I verified this  several more times over the week. Each time clients would loose connectivity on the WLAN, I'd pull out my S6 and toggle the wifi from on to off, and back to on  again and the problems would go away.

 

Initially I just tried to accept the fact that when wifi issues popped up that I just needed to toggle the wifi on my phone. But I'm getting tired of this. I can accept that some mobile devices have flaky wifi cards, but what I cannot accept is one single device bringing down an entire wireless lan. And being able to do this on an enterprise grade access point is even worse.

 

So I've tried to be able to replicate the issue on demand. I don't know if its the exact same issue, but it certainly has the same symptoms.

 

I noticed if I ping flood the galaxy S6 from any device (whether on lan or wireless doesn't matter), it will eventually stop responding to the pings and at that same moment all clients on the WLAN will still show as connected but will not be able to access anything UNTIL I toggle the wifi on the galaxy S6. Then all goes back to normal. I've made a video of it here:  http://ow.ly/gvlh307oosh

 

It is a video of 4 consoles running ping on a desktop on the wired LAN. The top console is the galaxy S6. I'm using the linux ping command with a short interval (ping -i0.01, although ping -f will work too). To replicate the behavior, you have to kind of "pump" it a little bit (start and stop the flood a couple of times, but it always does the trick). The second console from the top is another mobile phone on the WLAN. The 3rd is a laptop on the WLAN. And the very bottom is the IP of the WNDAP660 itself on the wired LAN (I never lose connection to the LAN as the video shows).

As you can see, I have to "pump" the S6 a couple of times but within 20 seconds it has already stopped responding to the pings and then a few seconds later the entire WLAN stops responding. I let it sit there in that state for about a minute and then I toggle the wifi on the S6 and all is well and restored again. I let it run in that state for another minute and then "pump" the S6 again which causes it to stop responding and bring down the WLAN again.

 

I've tried to use the packet capture feature of the WNDAP660 but I really don't see anything interesting in the captures. I've tried flooding other clients and multiples at a time, but the only thing that brings down the WLAN is the S6. I've done packet captures of floods of other clients. They all seem very uniform, simply a steady stream of packets with each side requesting block acks. The S6 starts out fine returning block acks but then it stops. Looking at the captures it is hard to tell where the connectivity is lost, it seems packets are always flowing but they are just being ignored. It makes me think the AP is waiting for an acknowledgement and is ignoring everything until it gets it. With that idea I looked around online to see if mishandling of block acks in 802n would cause a denial of service. I did find some speculation from another forum ( http://ow.ly/qWU8307opEb ) but nothing really concrete. If anyone knows of a better way to capture traffic, I'd be interested to hear but honestly I think it should be in netgear's hands now. Subsequently, disabling AMPDU (and thus block acks) seems to get rid of the issue with the S6 but brings speeds to 802g levels.

So now I'm left to try and figure out who's fault this is. I'm sure Samsung as some to blame but I doubt they can do anything about their devices that are already out in the wild. That leaves netgear to fix it. But looking at this forum and all the complaints agains the WNDAP660, I don't think netgear will do anything either 😞  Should I just file a bug anyway and hope for the best? I'm really tired of messing with the stuff, I just want something that works. I've even looked at buying a different brand but all the normal recommended brands are all cloud only solutions that require controllers or extra licensing. I just don't see the need in my case for a small office.

So in summary:
A few times a week, all devices connected to the WNDAP660 are unable to transmist data
Turning the wifi on a Samsung Galaxy S6 off and then back on again fixes the issue
Doing a ping flood against the S6 seems to recreate the issue on demand
Disabling AMPDU in the settings seems to prevent the issue but kills throughput.

Model: WNDAP660|ProSafe 3x3 Dual Radio| Dual Band Wireless-N Access Point
Message 1 of 38

Accepted Solutions
zappullae
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

So since the firmware upgrade and a factory reset this has been working.

View solution in original post

Message 38 of 38

All Replies
DaneA
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

Hi esaym,

 

Welcome to the community! 🙂 

 

Kindly try to disable WMM Powersave on the WNDAP660.  Here are the steps below:

 

1. On the web-GUI of the WNDAP660, go to Configuration > Wireless > Basic > QoS Settings. The QoS Settings screen displays.

2. Click on the 802.11b/bg/ng tab.

3. Click 'Disable' on the WMM Powersave.

4. Click Apply.

5. Still on the QoS Settings screen, click on 802.11a/na tab.

6. Click 'Disable' on the WMM Powersave.

7. Click Apply.

 

Observe if this resolves the problem.  Let us know the results.

 

 

Regards,

 

DaneA

NETGEAR Community Team

Message 2 of 38
DaneA
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

@esaym,

 

I just want to follow-up on this.  Were you able to disable WMM Powersave on the WNDAP660?  If yes, what are your observations?

 

 

Regards,

 

DaneA

NETGEAR Community Team

Message 3 of 38
esaym
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

As far as I know the "WMM Powersave" option only enables or disables U-APSD (Unscheduled Automatic Power Save Delivery) which according to the packet captures I have done, no devices on my network are using it. All mobile devices seem to use the regular ps-poll method. I have tried disabling the option in the past and it made no difference. The only thing that seems to prevent the issue is disabling AMPDU under the advance wifi settings. But AMPDU is the main feature of 802n so disabling that is almost the same as setting the AP in 802g mode.

A new mobile device was added to the WLAN yesterday as well, an LG G5. I noticed that if I ping flood that device as demonstrated in my video above, it too will also cause the entire WLAN to stay locked up until the device is disassociated and reassociated.

 

Originally I thought this issue might just be caused by buggy wifi on samsung devices, but with the behavior happening on the LG G5, that doesn't seem the case. The only thing in common is the Samsung S6 and LG G5 have wifi 802ac capabilities.

Model: WNDAP660|ProSafe 3x3 Dual Radio| Dual Band Wireless-N Access Point
Message 4 of 38
DaneA
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

@esaym,

 

Can you provide the configuration file of your WNDAP660?  You may provide me a download link for it.  

 

 

Regards,

 

DaneA

NETGEAR Community Team

Message 5 of 38
esaym
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

@DaneA

 

A link to the config: http://ow.ly/ybjC307xhpz

 

wifi0 is the 2.5GHZ interface which I have disabled ampdu and set all the cell phones with wifi to only to connect to that interface. All other devices connect using the 5GHZ wifi1 interface. It is mostly default settings except I disabled the 40mhz channel option. In my previous testing, I had changed every combination of rtsThreshold, fragLength, and ampduAggrLength. Nothing made a difference. I didn't test disabling wmmSupport, but as far as I know, wmm is required for 802n which means disabling it would reduce throughput greatly.  

 

My current configuration is stable (cell phones on wifi0 with ampdu disabled and everything else on wifi1 with defaults). But this should not be necessary for a $300 enterprise AP.

Model: WNDAP660|ProSafe 3x3 Dual Radio| Dual Band Wireless-N Access Point
Message 6 of 38
DavidTunstall
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

DaneA, esaym,

 

I have been suffering with freezing of both my 5Ghz and 2.4Ghz bands on both my WNDAP660 WAPs ever since I purchased them. I have upgraded through numerous releases of the firmware but the freezing still happens it's just that some versions seem to freeze sooner than others.

 

I keep checking back periodically and try the new firmware and browse through related "freezing" articles.

 

Well thank you to esaym for the excellent article on the AMPDU issue. You can now add iPhone 5 and 6 to your list of mobile phones that exhibit the same problem.

 

I can also report that after 10 days of disabling AMPDU on both my WNDAP660's on both bands (2.4Ghz  and 5Ghz) I have been freeze free.

 

That is a record. I know disabling this feature downgrades the speed they can operate at, but it is simply bliss to have working trouble free WAPs with no complaints.

 

Thank you esaym. Hopefully Netgear can now focus in on this issue and actually make this device business class.

 

Thanks and best regards

 

David

Message 7 of 38
zappullae
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

I have the same problem and also have an S6!  Time to try the fix.

 

Message 8 of 38
DaneA
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

@esaym / @zappullae

 

On the WNDAP660, kindly enable AMPDU setting then change the channel width to Dynamic 20/40MHz and apply the changes.  Observe if same problem will occur.

 

Let us know the results.

 

 

Regards,

 

DaneA
NETGEAR Community Team

 

Message 9 of 38
zappullae
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

I will try that after 2 weeks of the current test.  Right now I have the WNDAP660in place and WMM Powersave off and its working but it will take a couple weeks to know for sure.

 

 

Message 10 of 38
DavidTunstall
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

DaneA,

 

Both of my WNDAP660s are already configured with channel width set to Dynamic 20/40MHz on both 2.4 and 5Ghz. Prior to disabling AMPDU my 2.4 and 5 GHz bands regularly locked up every few days. Since Disabling AMPDU I have been trouble free on BOTH access points.

 

Regards

 

David

Message 11 of 38
RajaM
NETGEAR Expert

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

Hi David,

 

Below are my suggestion, 

 

If the customer is using 5GHz, they can try using Dynamic 20/40MHz with AMPDU disabled. Frequency of the issue occurance might reduce in 5GHz.

5GHz == Try Dynamic 20/40 MHz as channel bandwidth + Enable AMPDU.

 

If the customer is using 2.4GHz, Disabling AMPDU would be the right option as because getting 40MHz bandiwidth in 2.4GHz is little difficult. 

2.4GHz == Try static 20MHz as channel bandwidth + Disable AMPDU or Dynamic 20/40MHz + Disable AMPDU.

 

Thanks

Raja M

Netgear Research India Pvt Ltd.

Message 12 of 38
esaym
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

@DaneA

The issue still occurs with Dynamic 20/40MHz + AMPDU. That is the default setting if I remember right. Since I have already taken the time to write up all my comments, should I go ahead and open a support ticket or would that help at all?

@RajaM
You stated "Frequency of the issue occurance might reduce in 5GHz." So does that mean you know what causes the issue and perhaps a better way to avoid it? (or even fixing the firmware?)
Although for me, disabling AMPDU fixes the issue, I can't accept that as a fix. AMPDU is the main feature of 802.11n. If one is going to disable AMPDU, then they might as well just use 802.11g mode

entirely. The problem is that this is a $300+ 802.11n AP. If I wanted a 802.11g AP, I could have bought one for $20...

Message 13 of 38
DavidTunstall
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

@RajaM

Thanks for your suggestions but as stated previously my WNDAP660 locks in BOTH 2.4 and 5GHZ with AMPDU enabled with 20/40 Dynamic Channel Bandwidth.

Currently the ONLY thing that fixes the problem is disabling AMPDU.

My 2 WNDAP660's have now been running for 2 weeks without issue.

However as esaym says this is not really acceptable for a business class router with 802.11n.

This looks like a firmware issue to me with AMPDU handling. All the suggestions so far do not fix the locking of the channels except disabling AMPDU.

Is this accepted by Netgear as a bug right now?

Regards

David

Message 14 of 38
zappullae
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

So far I'm a week in and problem free.  I only have disabled WMM power save and have AMPDU enabled.  The other differences in my network are that the Comcast router is in Bridge Mode.  Previosly it was not and I had just turned off the radios.  And I don;t have a Firestick connected to my TV any longer.  I'm not sure if those items effected the operation of the WAP.

Message 15 of 38
DavidTunstall
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

Ok I am trying the same settings i.e AMPDU enabled and WMM Powersave disabled. Let's see in 2 weeks.

 

Regards

 

David

Message 16 of 38
DavidTunstall
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

Within 24 hours of re-enabling AMPDU both of my WAPs have locked up even with WMM Powersave disabled. I have now reverted to my stable configuration of AMPDU disabled on both 2.4Ghz and 5GHz. Since disabling AMPDU no further locks have occured and both WAPs are now stable.

 

Regards

David

Message 17 of 38
zappullae
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

So this is an interesting development.  The WAP worked for weeks, stopped working on Apple devices but Android still worked.  The symptoms seem to almost be like a DNS problem.  The progress bar on an Adroid Firefox browser seems to get 20% of the way on all pages and just halts.  I logged on via an Android device and rebooted it which caused it worked for a week.  Today it wont south again from both Apple and Android devices.  I can't get to the internet but I can get to the WAP wirelessly via Android and by IP, log in and reboot it after which it works again.  So the WAP works for its own admin purposes but will not grant internet access.   Almost like a DNS problem.

Message 18 of 38
esaym
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

I've basically given up thinking anything will ever be fixed. I've wasted $100's of dollars in business time messing with this.  I discovered Mikrotik has offerings similar to netgear access points. Small footprint, full featured and not requiring a central controller for managment (like Unifi). I bought one of thier AP's and should be here next week. If the WNDAP660 was a $70 product, I might be able to forgive this. But having a $300+ AP with problems for 3+ years is not ok.

Message 19 of 38
zappullae
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

I agree.  $300 for a WAP and it doesn't work and causes extra frustration.  Too bad.  I used to be a Netgear fan.

Message 20 of 38
zappullae
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

When the WAP goes south can you reach any web site by IP instead of DNS name?

Message 21 of 38
DavidTunstall
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

For me the whole band locks up. I cannot access any local or remote devices via the WAP. I can however access the WAP via ethernet or the other band that has not locked up which is basically functioning normally.

 

I've now been operating for weeks without issue purely by disabling AMPDU. As you say not ideal but at least trouble free.

 

Regards

David

Message 22 of 38
esaym
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

I must say, a few days ago my Mikrotik wAP ac access point came in the mail and I am throughly impressed. The AP is probably ¼ the size and puts out way better coverage. I've had 0 issues with random latency spikes, throughput drops and random wlan lock ups like I was with the wndap660. And it only costs $84 new! It simply puts the $300 netgear to shame. It only takes about 5 seconds to boot up and start receiving connections. Changing any settings through the web interface are applied instantly and you don't have to wait a minute for the device to reboot like with the netgear.

I've had 0 issues with it so far. Even better it allows my laptop to connect using 3 mimo streams, never happened with the netgear. I rarely saw network throughput above 80mbs with the netgear, but now I can do 160mbs easy. For the last 6 years I've used netgear only products and I have always had small, but livable, issues with wifi here and there. Just figured it was normal. But apparently its not, and I am never going back. The only sorry thing about Mikrotik, is the configuration interface. It is full blow and made for ISPs. The wAP comes configured as a router, but to make it a simple access point, you only need to delete the firewall rules, turn off its dhcp client and server, and then set a static IP on the bridge interface (can configure your wifi security). After that you are good 🙂

Model: WNDAP660|ProSafe 3x3 Dual Radio| Dual Band Wireless-N Access Point
Message 23 of 38
zappullae
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

Wow.  The config u had to do was SOP so not a big deal.  Great price too!  It would be nice if Netgear fixed this for real.

Message 24 of 38
DavidTunstall
Aspirant

Re: WNDAP660 Connectivity Issues

Esaym,

 

I'm interested in the Mikrotik but there are 3 features of the Netgear that I really would like to have:

 

1) POE support. Both of my Access Points are sited away from power so I am using the PoE feature to power them.

2) VLAN I have segregated my personal traffic totally from Guest traffic using the VLAN feature on the WAP which I then carry over the network to my router on an isolated VLAN,

3) SNMP monitoring. I heavily used an snmp network monitor to check my network devices so snmp support is a must.

 

Are these supported on th Microtik?

 

Regards

 

David

Message 25 of 38
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