Nighthawk D7000 Bufferbloat

[ruzicka]

Okay, so according to dslresports.com speed test, my setup is suffering from a high level of bufferbloat.  My old modem/router apparently did not have this problem, so I have to assume it's something to do with my Nighthawk modem/router.

After a lot of back and forth with tech support, if I am understanding them correctly, the bufferbloat stems from the fact that my download speed is a LOT higher than my upload speed (40 mbps vs. 5 mbps).  As such, it appears that there is not much more Netgear can do to alleviate the problem.

Don't most high-speed connections, at least in the USA, have a much higher download speed than upload speed?  If that is the case, then I would assume that just about everyone, again at least in the USA, would have the same bufferbloat problem.  If that is the case, with MANY customers having this problem, I find it odd that Netgear cannot find a better solution!

[netwrks]

Most of the problem is the ISP modem(s), as they have to buffer data coming in/out - hence the phrase buffer bloat. Try turning off QoS, if it's on and retest. Some move to pro-sumer devices to eliminate the problem, as there is more configurable attributes.

Look it up..

"Bufferbloat is the undesirable latency that comes from a router or other network equipment buffering too much data. It is a huge drag on Internet performance created, ironically, by previous attempts to make it work better. The one-sentence summary is "Bloated buffers lead to network-crippling latency spikes."

[ruzicka]

Interesting.  Originally I had QoS turned off.  But in their effort to help me with the bufferbloat problem, Netgear tech support gave me a beta firmware and told me to turn QoS on!

This all appears to have helped a little bit with bufferbloat, but not entirely.

So you are suggesting that I should actually turn QoS off?

[richbhanover]

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@ruzicka wrote:

Okay, so according to dslresports.com speed test, my setup is suffering from a high level of bufferbloat.  My old modem/router apparently did not have this problem, so I have to assume it's something to do with my Nighthawk modem/router.

After a lot of back and forth with tech support, if I am understanding them correctly, the bufferbloat stems from the fact that my download speed is a LOT higher than my upload speed (40 mbps vs. 5 mbps).  As such, it appears that there is not much more Netgear can do to alleviate the problem.

Don't most high-speed connections, at least in the USA, have a much higher download speed than upload speed?  If that is the case, then I would assume that just about everyone, again at least in the USA, would have the same bufferbloat problem.  If that is the case, with MANY customers having this problem, I find it odd that Netgear cannot find a better solution!

---

Their explanation is, regrettably, incorrect. As you point out, most cable/DSL links are asymmetric - faster download than upload. The lag is caused by your router - you can read a lot more about bufferbloat at http://www.bufferbloat.net

But that won't solve make your modem better. Check the "What to do about Bufferbloat" page at http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/cerowrt/wiki/What_to_do_about_Bufferbloat I don't know for sure whether you would be able to install OpenWrt, DD-WRT, or Gargoyle firmware on the modem - if so, it would completely eliminate bufferbloat.

Although it's a long shot, call Netgear tech support and ask to speak to a supervisor, or someone who *does* understand bufferbloat (don't let them get away with saying it's because your link is asymmetric...) Tell them that the router seems to have really high lag/bufferbloat, and ask them when they plan to release a fix. 

You paid a lot of money for this router. They're wasting your time by failing to implement a fix that has been understood and freely available for the last 3 1/2 years. 

[ruzicka]

This Nighthawk is a combined modem/router. All in one. No separate modem. So again, I find it odd that Netgear cannot or will not find a workaround.

[ruzicka]

Thanks for the info!  I passed your recommendation onto Netgear Tech Support.  Let's see if/when they do anything with it.

[DrSlump]

Hi,

i got a D7000 to and i have a dsl line with 20Mbit download and 1Mbit upload.

With my previous modem (Asus N55U) i didn't have any bufferbloat problem with smart qos enabled and in dsl reports i get C on bufferbloat data. With D7000, even with qos enabled, the burfferbloat i get is always F!!

Infact, trying to upload everything, even a video with whatsapp, causes all other devices connected to the router to be unable to surf on the net (the ping goes up over 3000ms!).

Here my result with dslreports:

[MicroNateDram]

I have the exact same problem with my D7000.  

Best way to get Netgear to fix this is to start posting bad reviews on amazon and other sites till the get the picture that this is a real problem with their firmware.

QOS helps slightly, but they aren't using AQM with their QOS which means it only helps so much.

Also, I've found that the thing that makes the network lag the most is any sort of "cloud" backup software. (google photos, amazon photos, crashplan, webcam surveilance systems, etc).

I really hope Netgear tech's get the picture that something is critically wrong with both the upload buffer size (buffer ratio to the upload speed) as well as the AQM feature that quality routers now are beginning to support along with QOS. 

Thanks!

[MicroNateDram]

[DrSlump]

Hi,

i've returned the modem to Amazon and now i'm using the asus again wich, despites the Ralink chipset, is really more reliable and the bufferbloat is never below "C" in the test: updating iCloud or GDrive is not a problem anymore.

[MicroNateDram]

You'd think that Netgear support would actually care about this software issue that plagues their devices.  Unfortunately my support requests and flags to the techsupport/engineering department continue to be ignored cause I've had the device for more than 90 days.

I'm NOT asking for someone to "remote" into my router.  I just want someone to look at this issue on their modem.  The QOS software is NOT working!

I have setup the QOS correctly (~90% of upload bandwidth, etc).  Regardless of what I do, ANY PC on the network doing an upload pretty much stops other PC's from downloading.  Bufferbloat 100% of the way.

Please take a look at this tech support team... before I send another modem/router back.

[MicroNateDram]

I think they may actually have gotten the point and are in the process of releasing a firmware fix!  Unfortunately the most recent release of this fix made DSL completely stop working.

V1.0.0.34

Bug Fixes

• Fixes the issue in which the download steam stops or slows down when the device is sending upstream traffic.
• Fixes the issue in which the WiFi schedule does not work well when the GUI language is switched to a non-English language.
• Fixes the issue in which access control does not display the correct wireless devices.
• Fixes the issue in which the device stops responding to a DHCP request when Cisco DPH-154 microcell broadcasts a DHCP discover requests.
• Corrects the Australia Eastern Time daylight problem. 

[mcrs969]

Hi,

this FW really fixed my issue, regardless the fact that the rate on the test is not that high, the connection is now usable...

Anyone with this FW experienced issues in "booking" LAN ip Address via MAC address? right now it does not work anymore.

ciao,

Michele

[David-]

The new firmware didn't help me. V1.0.0.34 firmware still gets an F for bufferbloat at dslreports.com

[mcrs969]

Also with QoS activated and set?

Actually the little workaround to eliminate bufferbloat appears to be reducing the upload speed in the QoS page so that you won't saturate the uplink band. But I imagine this is not the best...

However with this FW installed and all disabled and up to 16 devices linked I have no serious bufferbloat, even when iPhone backup is ongoing... It is and was just visible from tests...

[David-]

Also with QoS, yes.

I've tried with QoS disabled, with QoS set to 90% of upstream, and with QoS set to 50%(!) of upstream. F every time.

I installed V1.0.0.34 yesterday, hoping for some improvement, but today my iPhone backup slowed everything to a crawl just like it did before.

[MicroNateDram]

What country are you in?

I think the fix breaks dsl linking in the USA for me. No longer let's me select CenturyLink.

[mcrs969]

Mmh... I would not worry about the F but if it slows down also with .34 then I don't know what to say.

Let's see what the netgear people say about this.

Ciao

[David-]

I'm in the UK. Everything seems to be working exactly as it did before the firmware update.

[gianluigi84]

Bufferbloat, QoS, Reservation IP is not working and I'm very bored about the Netgear's support.

I've spent a lot of money for this router and at present a lot of users have serious problems with this device.
Netgear, can you give us a solution or not?

Please check on google about "d7000 bufferbloat" to understand what people think about your company.

Regards

[DarrenM]

Hello gianlunigi84

We are working on fixing these issues I know that our engineers are working on a new firmware to address these just do not have a ETA on when this will be released I will let you guys know if I hear a release for this.

DarrenM

[mcrs969]

I have actually got the beta FW which fixed the reservation IP and I have a friend who got the one for bufferbloat, Darren, why don't you make available those beta on the forum of the community so that people could participate in your testing?

As a company it would be your choice to evaluate a reporting as valuable or not, we know that in 100 people only 10 will report completely the FW effectiveness, but better 10 plus than nothing no?

I know the .36_QoS beta is somehow distributed but my friend accepted an agreement of non distribution, can't netgear make such beta FW available on the forum?

Thanks and ciao

[gianluigi84]

NETGEAR, the World is waiting for your engeneers

Please remember that is not professional and polite to ask months of time when people spent a lot of money for an "high-level" device and it have serious problems like bufferbloat: it compromise seriously the customer's jobs.

Is possible to have the beta-firmware to fix the bufferbloat's problem?

I'm very bored and frustrated about it but I want to think that Netgear wants to take care of its customers.

Regards

[lolollo]

Hello DarrenM

i was using the recommended .38 firmware on my d7000

however, i could not assign a local static IP to my server.

I downgraded to .32 , since it was the last official one to support IP reservation.

Since the downgrade ip reservation works, but i've experienced serious bufferbloat

Is there a firmware, even a beta one, which will fix both IP reservation and bufferbloat?

thank you

If so, can i obtain it from a legit source?