Reply

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

SpadeNewsom
Luminary

Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

How do I have just one network that works with either wireless frequency. Windows 7 wants me to create two networks.

I have a new WNDR3700 and am new to dual frequencies I want both operating as I have a couple of computers that only have 2.4ghz still.

Maybe someone can direct me somewhere where the basic functionality is explained and real life usage situations are explained.

cheers

Spade Newsom
Message 1 of 20
fordem
Mentor

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

Two points ...

First - Windows doesn't care what the wireless frequency is - it just looks at the SSID.
Second - Windows can only connect to one wireless network at a time.

What I suspect you are doing is creating two separate networks with different SSIDs and then possibly (if you have dual band wireless adapters) creating two separate network profiles to connect to them.

What you want is one network with one SSID (yes it can be done, regardless of how many wireless access points you use, and how many frequency bands or channels, those access points allow), and one encryption key - Windows will then connect to the one network based on the SSID and what it sees as the strongest signal.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish, feed him for life.
Message 2 of 20
Joe_
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

SpadeNewsom,

Just to expand on what fordem said.

When you run your set-up CD that came with your new WNDR3700, it should lead you through a process of setting up the details for each network, on the 2.4 and 5GHz bands. This is what I suspect you mean when you say "Windows 7 wants me to create two networks.

During the above process, you can set-up a separate network (ie. change the SSID, choose encryption type [WEP or WPA etc.] and password, etc.) on each frequency band (ie. 2.4 or 5GHz), if it suits you. However, you will not be able to access both networks at the same time.

If you have a number of PCs that only operate on 2.4GHz but others are dual band, then you should set up only one network on the 2.4GHz band. This way all your PCs/devices will be on a single network and can communicate with each other. You can always make whatever changes later.

One suggestion though: If you are not using the 5GHz band, you may want to turn-off it's Wireless Radio.

You wanted to find out more and you can start by downloading the manual from Netgear. You may also browse some of Netgear's KB articles that can help also. 🙂
Message 3 of 20
SpadeNewsom
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

Joe_ wrote:
SpadeNewsom,

Just to expand on what fordem said.

When you run your set-up CD that came with your new WNDR3700, it should lead you through a process of setting up the details for each network, on the 2.4 and 5GHz bands. This is what I suspect you mean when you say "Windows 7 wants me to create two networks.

During the above process, you can set-up a separate network (ie. change the SSID, choose encryption type [WEP or WPA etc.] and password, etc.) on each frequency band (ie. 2.4 or 5GHz), if it suits you. However, you will not be able to access both networks at the same time.

If you have a number of PCs that only operate on 2.4GHz but others are dual band, then you should set up only one network on the 2.4GHz band. This way all your PCs/devices will be on a single network and can communicate with each other. You can always make whatever changes later.

One suggestion though: If you are not using the 5GHz band, you may want to turn-off it's Wireless Radio.

You wanted to find out more and you can start by downloading the manual from Netgear. You may also browse some of Netgear's KB articles that can help also. 🙂


Thanks for the reply. The router has been used elsewhere for a bit and I have not yet been able to put it in my home. But will next week.

I have read through the manual and as you may have gathered I struggle with many of the concepts and jargon.

I still can't get what practical applications the dual band has if they are two separate networks and wireless clients on one network don't talk to clients on the other. the manual tells you how to set it up but does not tell you how and when you should impliment it all.

The manual says that two SSIDs will be created "Netgear" and Netgear 5g". This is up and running and a laptop can access either ssid and use an attached printyer. Are you saying these should be changed to the same SSID name????

I will have printers and nas connected by ethernet and computers and media devices connected wirelessly. I was intending to use 5ghz for media devices and 2.4 for computers. would this mean my media player could not get stuff off my pc unless it was also on the 5ghz or it was wired.
Message 4 of 20
Joe_
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

SpadeNewsom wrote:
I have read through the manual and as you may have gathered I struggle with many of the concepts and jargon.

The User and Setup manuals are a good place to start to get to know your equipment.

I still can't get what practical applications the dual band has if they are two separate networks and wireless clients on one network don't talk to clients on the other.

As you learn more you will come to realize why it is so.

the manual tells you how to set it up but does not tell you how and when you should impliment it all.

Some of it is common sense. You may want to google around and read some of the basics and after a while things will fall in place. The basics tab of this site may be a good starting point: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/ Also, if you go to http://support.netgear.com/ there are some useful links to FAQs and KB articles. Wikipedia has lots but its not written for the layman.

The manual says that two SSIDs will be created "Netgear" and Netgear 5g".

Hopefully you have changed these factory default SSIDs??

This is up and running and a laptop can access either ssid and use an attached printyer. Are you saying these should be changed to the same SSID name????

No! While there is nothing to prevent you from assigning the same SSID to both networks, it is advisable to have a small distinction in the name that will enable you to differentiate between the two when the Windows scan shows you what wireless networks are around. After all, common sense would dictate that you would want to know exactly which network you are connected to at anytime, not so?

would this mean my media player could not get stuff off my pc unless it was also on the 5ghz or it was wired.

Yes. Knowing how it works, you will just have to set up your devices accordingly.
Message 5 of 20
jlewter
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

Some people like to use a dedicated frequency.
If your 2.4 suffers, but the 5ghz works good.. Then leave the names different and only tell your computer how to connect to the 5ghz.

If you give both the same SSID then your computer should latch on to the one it considers best.

They are different radio signals, but they are all on the same "network".. Anything connected to the 2.4ghz can talk to anything connected ot the 5ghz, and both can talk to anything connected via wired LAN.
Message 6 of 20
SpadeNewsom
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

jlewter wrote:
Some people like to use a dedicated frequency.
If your 2.4 suffers, but the 5ghz works good.. Then leave the names different and only tell your computer how to connect to the 5ghz.

If you give both the same SSID then your computer should latch on to the one it considers best.

They are different radio signals, but they are all on the same "network".. Anything connected to the 2.4ghz can talk to anything connected ot the 5ghz, and both can talk to anything connected via wired LAN.


Now I am really confused. Joe and jlewter seem to be saying different things. Am I reading something wrongly in your replies.
Message 7 of 20
fordem
Mentor

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

SpadeNewsom wrote:
I still can't get what practical applications the dual band has if they are two separate networks and wireless clients on one network don't talk to clients on the other. the manual tells you how to set it up but does not tell you how and when you should impliment it all.


What makes you think they will be separate networks and the wireless clients on one won't be able to talk to the other?

Mind you - it may be possible to set it up this way - if the router offers wireless isolation.

Let's look at the reasons for running 2.4 or 5 GHz wireless networks.

The primary advantage of 2.4 GHz is that it suffers less from attenuation, and so has a greater range - however - that increased range is a double edged sword - and makes it more prone to interference issues because your neighbor's 2.4 GHz also reaches further. The reverse is true for 5GHz - it has a shorter range because of the greater attenuation, and the signal, being weaker at a given distance is less likely to cause interference to an adjacent network.

Personally I wouldn't bother to run both unless I had specific circumstances that required it - for example - the need to switch to 5GHz because of interference issues, along with a need to support legacy 2.4 GHz equipment.

If you have no interference issues with 2.4 GHz I would suggest simply disabling the 5 GHz radio.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish, feed him for life.
Message 8 of 20
SpadeNewsom
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

fordem wrote:
What makes you think they will be separate networks and the wireless clients on one won't be able to talk to the other?


Cause that's how I read Joe's post.

fordem wrote:
Personally I wouldn't bother to run both unless I had specific circumstances that required it - for example - the need to switch to 5GHz because of interference issues, along with a need to support legacy 2.4 GHz equipment.


Cause I thought the idea of dual band, apart from the management of interference, was to stream media on one bandwidth say 5ghz without compromising performance of internet on PCs on say 2.4 gHz. I thought that was the main purpose of dual band.
Message 9 of 20
ZR1jag
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

There are some routers that despite being dual cannot operate simultanusly on both bands.
I have not tested 3700v1 yet but I was always under impression that both neworks are operatonal simultanously i.e. you can connect to 5g with a computer with 2.4 disabled/5g enabled while the rest of your equipment w only 2.4 will have no problems working at the same time on 2.4 network.
Message 10 of 20
jlewter
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

I think perhaps some of the confusion is the terminology...

Are they seperate Networks - NO...

Are they seperate Settings - Possible....
(If SSID = Same, then NO)
(If SSID = Different, Then YES)

Are they seperate Connections - YES...

You have 3 connections all to the same network..
1) 2.4g WiFi
2) 5g WiFi
3) Wired Ethernet 10/100/1000

All 3 of the above are the same "Network".

The reason for Dual-Band was to give a high-bandwith low-saturated link (5ghz). Range isnt as far, so that has some positives in the wild (you dont flood the whole street). Since there is likely to be less traffic then the 5ghz link COULD prove to be more useful for speed and streaming.

If you use the same SSID and Security settings for both bands then the devices will latch onto whatever they prefer. I cant say what would logically come first, Higher signal (2.4ghz) or possibly higher speed (5ghz)...

This router doesnt really offer a QoS filtering option Per-Band... If it did offer that then it would be possible to set the 5ghz link up mainly for video and 2.4 up for other stuff.

Sorry for any confusion.
Message 11 of 20
fordem
Mentor

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

SpadeNewsom wrote:
Cause that's how I read Joe's post.


Let's go back to the basics ...

A network is a group of computers connected to one another so that they can share data and peripherals. Most networks today are built using ethernet technology and UTP (unshielded twisted pair) cabling which requires some sort of concentrator where all the cables connect - usually a network switch.

Although this may sound wrong - it IS possible to have a network without a router - it's just not the most common way to do it.

A wireless access point allows you to extend a wired network wirelessly - it allows wireless equipped computers access to the wired network, and whatever data or peripherals are shared on that wired network.

A dual band wireless access point is an access point with two radios that allows you to connect wireless equipped computers to the wired network using one of two different frequency bands - very important - one wired network being extended using two radios on different frequencies.

A router allows you to connect two networks together, whilst still keeping them separate - they don't become one network even though they are connected and data can be exchanged - the most common use of a router in today's internet connected world is to allow a home network to be connected to the internet and to allow that internet connection to be shared by the computers on the network.

A wireless router is a router, a network switch and a wireless access point all in one housing - it's a matter of convenience & compromise - you gain by not having separate housings and power supplies with a tangle of cables between them, and you lose by not having all of the features of the separate devices.

Now that we have defined the components of the network - your dual band wireless router is simply a device that allows you to build a wired network with a shared internet connection, and to extend that wired network to computers equipped with either 2.4 or 5 GHz wireless radios - but it is still only ONE network.

Is this clear now?

Even if you configure each radio with it's own SSID and encryption - for example NETGEAR-24 & NETGEAR-5 - it is still only ONE network.

This is the reason that a computer connected via the 2.4Ghz radio can use the internet connection and a computer connected via the 5GHz radio can use the same internet connection - it is only ONE network.

A wireless client connnected to the 2.4GHz radio should be able to share data with any other computer on the network, either on the wired portion, or connected wirelessly to the 5GHz radio.

Having explained all of that - it may be possible - if your router offers wireless isolation, to isolate the wireless portions from the wired one and keep everything separate.

Cause I thought the idea of dual band, apart from the management of interference, was to stream media on one bandwidth say 5ghz without compromising performance of internet on PCs on say 2.4 gHz. I thought that was the main purpose of dual band.


Let me approach this from a different angle.

How fast is your internet connection - I would guess no faster than 8 mbps - there are faster connections, but many of us either don't have access to them, or aren't willing to pay the premium.

Let's say you have four PCs on the 2.4 Ghz radio and you have a 300 mbs connection to each PC - that's 300 mbps split four ways or 75 mbps, per PC - now let's stream media to each PC - how much bandwidth can each PC get?

The answer is 8mbps split four ways - 2mbps each - now - are you anywhere near to compromising the performance of one single radio yet?

Plug your own numbers in - you know how fast your internet connection is - you know how many computers are going to be sharing it - but I'm almost certain you'll get the same answer that I did.

The streaming performance of your internet connection is limited by the internet connection itself and you don't need two wireless radios to prevent performance degradation.

Now if you'll permit me to go off on a little tangent.

Salespersons in the electronics superstore chains are often misinformed - your reason for using both channels almost certainly came out of one of them, even if you didn't hear it there directly.

I was in a one such store about two weeks ago and overheard a potential buyer being given a different reason for buying dual band - you can only have five devices on a wireless network and if you try a connect a sixth, it will knock one of the other five off.

I turned around and walked out of the store.

I have a single band wireless access point in a home which I would describe as having more electronics than the average home - there are six of us, myself, wife & our four children, all college age or older - with ten laptops between us, every one has either a smart phone or a blackberry and three of my children have both, there are four ipod touches of different generations, an ipad2, a Nintendo Wii, and two wireless HP printers - grand total - SEVENTEEN (17) devices - and we have never had one knocked off by another. We do, frequently, have contention for bandwidth on the internet connection, but never for wireless connections.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish, feed him for life.
Message 12 of 20
Joe_
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

Wow! What a mini article fordem. I could just imagine what time and effort it took on your part. I’m not at all ashamed to admit that I too benefited from it. I would add that I have done a fair amount of research and reading about networking, and have yet to come across any writing that quite explains this particular concept of dual band routers in this manner.

And jlewter, your input was well received as well.

Now Spade, let me be the first to plead guilty to misleading you. I was always under the impression that 2.4GHz devices wouldn’t be able to communicate with 5GHz devices on the same router, but fordem and jlewter have explained quite nicely the concept of one network. Upon reflection, my not having 5GHz devices with my dual band router may have played a part in my ignorance. So again, my sincere apologies for misleading you.

Actually, both fordem and jlewter are much more knowledgeable than I am, and I am happy to learn from them.

One last thing Spade, why don’t you just hook-up the router and configure your network? There’s nothing to prevent you from making changes later. A little experimenting is sometimes the best way to learn what is most suitable to you. There’s nothing to break, unless of course you were to do something stupid to corrupt the firmware. So just do it I would say. 😉
Message 13 of 20
ZR1jag
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

jlewter wrote:


This router doesnt really offer a QoS filtering option Per-Band... If it did offer that then it would be possible to set the 5ghz link up mainly for video and 2.4 up for other stuff.

Sorry for any confusion.


I am not talking about QoS. The way I understand QoS is what gets preference in faster upload/download. The key word is simultaneous meaning at the same time...
I your computer is only enabled to do 5g...are you saying it will connect to 2.4 it it's stronger?....or will it connect to 5g network broadcasting on different SSID from 2.4 SSID?

If the answer is not the latter then it is not dual simultaneous band...
Message 14 of 20
jlewter
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

ZR1jag wrote:
I am not talking about QoS. The way I understand QoS is what gets preference in faster upload/download. The key word is simultaneous meaning at the same time...
I your computer is only enabled to do 5g...are you saying it will connect to 2.4 it it's stronger?....or will it connect to 5g network broadcasting on different SSID from 2.4 SSID?

If the answer is not the latter then it is not dual simultaneous band...


No computer can use both bands at the same time.
That would be termed as "Link Aggregation" and home users would likely never see it on any product. Some DDWrt builds allow it on the ethernet ports.

I am saying that I dont know how the computer will make it's choice of network when it's given the choice of a 5ghz and a 2.4ghz signal with varying qualitys. And laptops (both of mine at least) will try to latch on to their previous connection before accepting a new one.

The computer will never connect to both 5ghz and 2.4ghz bands at the same time. So you either force it's choice (Different SSID's) or Let it pick (Same SSID & Keys).

There may be a time where we see this, but It would be a major change for both routers and laptops. Laptops tend to have 1 radio card that can only do one band at one time, the antenna are also shared. So laptop cost would go up by needing an additional radio card plus the antenna. Then both the router and laptop would need to support aggregated links. I know it has been done but in my view it will probably never happen. It would be a nice novilty, but I dont think it'll ever happen.

The router is simultaneous but the computers are not.
Message 15 of 20
ZR1jag
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

jlewter wrote:
No computer can use both bands at the same time.
That would be termed as "Link Aggregation" and home users would likely never see it on any product. Some DDWrt builds allow it on the ethernet ports.

I am saying that I dont know how the computer will make it's choice of network when it's given the choice of a 5ghz and a 2.4ghz signal with varying qualitys. And laptops (both of mine at least) will try to latch on to their previous connection before accepting a new one.

The computer will never connect to both 5ghz and 2.4ghz bands at the same time. So you either force it's choice (Different SSID's) or Let it pick (Same SSID & Keys).

There may be a time where we see this, but It would be a major change for both routers and laptops. Laptops tend to have 1 radio card that can only do one band at one time, the antenna are also shared. So laptop cost would go up by needing an additional radio card plus the antenna. Then both the router and laptop would need to support aggregated links. I know it has been done but in my view it will probably never happen. It would be a nice novilty, but I dont think it'll ever happen.

The router is simultaneous but the computers are not.


Again, huge misunderstanding...chalk it up to how we filter what we read...

Lets take 2 computers: one with only 2.4 b/g/n----another w/5g a/n -2.4 disabled

The router enabled w/ different SSID for 2.4 ---different SSID for 5g


The router has QoS WMM for 5g enabled...and the same disabled for 2.4

will both computers gain access to the router at the same time without interference? Given your ISP speed 5g client should get preference since QoS is enabled ...
Message 16 of 20
fordem
Mentor

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

jlewter wrote:
No computer can use both bands at the same time.


Be VERY careful when you make statements like that ...

Windows supports up to four network interfaces and that means you can have four wireless cards (provided you have the physical interfaces to install the cards) and those cards can be connected to different networks (or even to the same network) on which ever bands the cards support.

If you have a dual band router with both bands active and two cards that can connect to those bands - you CAN use both bands at the same time - and without using link aggregation.

This may not be a normal configuration, but it can definitely be done.

Also - many laptops of recent manufacture use either mini-PCI or mini-PCIe slots for their wireless cards, and frequently have two slots - intended to be used for WLAN & WWAN cards - it is possible to install a second WLAN card in the WWAN card slot - so it's really not that difficult (or expensive - you can pick up these cards very cheaply on ebay).

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish, feed him for life.
Message 17 of 20
jlewter
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

ZR1jag wrote:
Again, huge misunderstanding...chalk it up to how we filter what we read...

Lets take 2 computers: one with only 2.4 b/g/n----another w/5g a/n -2.4 disabled

The router enabled w/ different SSID for 2.4 ---different SSID for 5g


The router has QoS WMM for 5g enabled...and the same disabled for 2.4

will both computers gain access to the router at the same time without interference? Given your ISP speed 5g client should get preference since QoS is enabled ...


It's up to the Laptop to decide, Again, I dont know how it would be decided.
Different OS's, or different network tools if you dont use the OS default would be what decides.
Message 18 of 20
jlewter
Luminary

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

fordem wrote:
Be VERY careful when you make statements like that ...


Yea, I hate making statements like that because I know that there are exceptions, I did reference an exception too on the IEEE website.

Someone who would take the time to make such a unit probably wouldnt come to these forums, and would be well above my guidance level ;P.
Message 19 of 20
Mars Mug
Virtuoso

Re: Two networks created for 2.4 and 5.0 ghz

fordem wrote:
Windows supports up to four network interfaces and that means you can have four wireless cards (provided you have the physical interfaces to install the cards) and those cards can be connected to different networks (or even to the same network) on which ever bands the cards support.


I’ve often run tests, e.g. throughput tests, using two wireless devices and a wired connection at the same time.
Message 20 of 20
Discussion stats
  • 19 replies
  • 25611 views
  • 4 kudos
  • 6 in conversation
Announcements

Orbi WiFi 6E