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Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Dustin_V
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Nighthawk 5G Hotspot.jpg

The World’s First Millimeter Wave 5G Connection is here, thanks to AT&T! We’ve partnered up to deliver the Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot, the first standards-based mobile 5G network device in the world. We’re excited to be part of AT&T’s commitment to be the first to introduce mobile 5G services in the U.S. this year.

 

Read more about this awesome milestone in our latest Blog article and AT&T’s Press Release.

Message 1 of 48
BretD
Admin

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

This thing is so cool! I have so much trouble and worry when I'm on vacation and don't have good (or safe) WiFi. Perfect to just bring your WiFi with you.

Message 2 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

While I like new devices and tech just as much (likely much more) than the average Joe, I just wish my current NIghthawk MR1100 would get more than 60-90Mbit DL and more than 5-15Mbit up.

 

My Phones (6s, XS Max, Galaxy S7 Edge) routinely get 160-200Mbit DL these days on AT&T in NJ/PA.  UL on the XSM is terrible, but that's do to to it's amature antenna design (as is the poor reception compared to my 6s).  Uploads on the 6S are about the same as the MR1100, and my Velocity 2 gets DOUBLE the upload speeds of either (usually 20-40Mbit UL).

 

5G is a marketing ploy/hoax, just like LAA.  The range of the broadcast area is so small as to be completely useless.  Additionally, on the MR1100, you have to turn off 5.8Ghz Wifi to get it (assuming you're in the 4 to 9 block area in which it's being broadcast) -- what a joke.

 

The Qualcomm X20 (or perhaps X50 depending on which marketing literature you read) in the MR1100 outclasses my 6S in every possible way.  But yet this 4 year old phone runs circles around my MR1100.

 

Why doesn't anyone make a high quality hotspot that gets great reception, fast speeds, good battery life, and you can still charge it when it gets a little warm (27C)?

 

At least the 5G Nighthawk isn't a "silent upgrade" the way the Gen2 Band14 Nighthawk was.

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 3 of 48

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

any other pictures, does this have ethernet port, what speed is it, 10 GbE, 5  GbE, 2.5 GbE?

 

 

Message 4 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Good question,

 

Realistically, though, Gigabit Ethernet is proabbly fast enought given that real world cellular speeds are always significantly lower than theoretical.  Of course, these days 10Gbit NIC's are very inexpensive.

 

Bigger question is my mind is the Wifi on the hotspot.  Since the current Nighthawks (Gen1 and Gen2) CANNOT use 5.8GHz 802.11ac AND LAA simultaneously, this is a huge issue for those of us who would rather not carry around a proper AP connected to the Nighthawk via Ethernet and AC power.

 

Nearly every Wifi device today, worth its salt, has 5Ghz capability.  And the 40/80MHz bandwidth on the 5Ghz channel is essential to making use of Advanced LTE, LAA, and (eventually) 5G mmWAVE cellular.

 

I'd much rather see the 2.4Ghz radio be dropped in favor of two 5.8Ghz radios -- one for LAA and one for clients.  Triband would be okay, too, but might use too much power. 

 

Given the poor wireless range on the existing Nighthawks, and the propensity to reboot due to a limited power envelope when dual band Wifi is on -- not to mention the heat.  It seems like power dissapation is a significant challenge. 

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 5 of 48
Richard_J
Tutor

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Where to see the detail specification of the Nighthawk M5?

Message 6 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

5G is a marketing ploy/hoax, just like LAA.

 

5G can be 1Gbit+ or 1Mbit at your home.  In my rural United States area, LAA, carrier aggregation, millimeter wave, etc do not exist.  Speed boosts that come to rural areas in the future will be 600MHz-700MHz based.  They are simply not going to build out cell towers for GHz solutions in rural areas.  GHz signals do not travel far enough to reach rural homes.

Message 7 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Totally agree,

 

Unfortunately, without strong centralized regulation (monopolies) you end up with the fragmented mess that is the US FCC Spectrum allocation map for cellular phones. 

 

https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/2003-allochrt.pdf

 

What the need to do is clean house, depricate all of the legacy frequencies and technologies and carve out nice 100+Mhz blocks for each of the three (4?) major carriers.  600-699, 700-799, 800-900 for Tmo, AT&T, and Verizon respectively.  These licenses need to be nationwide, and all existing camping legacy technologies can "stuff it."  (-:

 

What most folks in the rest of the world don't understand is how geographically expansive the United States is.  With a cell tower every 3 to 10 miles, I cannot imaging how many tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) there must be.

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 8 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

T-Mobile is claiming a world first with Nokia: The two companies just completed a 5G data transmission on T-Mobile’s 600 MHz commercial network.  T-Mobile and Nokia engineers completed the downlink transmission tests using global 5G standards in Spokane, Washington. The “uncarrier” says the tests prove that low-band airwaves will provide 5G coverage across hundreds of square miles from a single tower, which stands in contrast to millimeter wave sites that cover less than a square mile.

 

One mile = 5280 feet.  Millimeter wave transmissions work best at short range and line of sight.  In the real world with trees, buildings, vehicles, weather, etc, expect massive slowdowns for every 1000 feet you move away from the cell tower.  

 

The questions for rural areas are what 5G speeds can we expect on low-bands and when will it happen?

Message 9 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

(-:  Well, not sure about hundreds of square miles, but 10mi x 10mi (or the hexagonal equivalent) might be doable.  The bigger issues are handset uplink signal strength and quality (which seems to be getting worse with each new generation of smart phones) and, of course, POP density over such a large area being covered by a single cell tower and its limited backhaul bandwidth.  Granted in truly rural locales, the number of POP's per 100sq miles may not as much of a concern -- though with even a handful of clients downloading at hundreds of megabits each, even fiber backbones will quickly become saturated.  Not sure if any of the newer phones supporting band 71 will actually transmit at 600Mhz so realistic mobile range may be further limited without a booster.

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 10 of 48
schumaku
Guru

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device


@nhantenna wrote:

...The “uncarrier” says the tests prove that low-band airwaves will provide 5G coverage across hundreds of square miles from a single tower, which stands in contrast to millimeter wave sites that cover less than a square mile.


Reads to me much more like a marketing message "We have the better bands available than the competition investing in the millimeter wave bands.". Of course, the millimeter wave cells are for very small cell deployment, under the road/sidewalks, in closed areas like train or subway stations.

Message 11 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Regarding the "Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot" itself, now that the data signal is all over the place from the low MHz to the high GHz, and given that Netgear will not provide any manual band control, I wonder which external antenna solutions will be supported.  For example if you live in a millimeter wave area but an obstruction interferes with the signal you'll need an external antenna placed outside of a window or on the roof.  Are AT&T's 5G frequencies published anywhere?

Message 12 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Are AT&T's 5G frequencies published anywhere?

 

The "Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot" will be available for sale next month and its technical specs will state all the bands it supports.  Every component of your external antenna solution (cables, cable length, connectors, ground blocks, adapters, amplifier, the antenna itself) must support the frequencies that are important to you.  4G LTE external antenna solutions are widely available.  5G external antenna solutions will get there eventually but may be very limited in 2019.

Message 13 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

AT&T and Verizon are initially deploying 5G in millimeter wave spectrum bands above 24 GHz. The reason those carriers have focused on that band is that the band includes broad swaths of spectrum that can support higher speeds in comparison with lower-frequency spectrum. AT&T, for example, has said that it has achieved mobile speeds of 1 Gbps using millimeter wave spectrum.

 

That's not two point four GHz...that's twenty four GHz.  Your typical external 4G LTE cables, connectors, antenna, etc are not going to work with spectrum that high.  Chicken and the egg.  If external 5G antenna solutions do not exist yet, will Netgear put 5G enabled antenna ports on the hotspot? 4G LTE only antenna ports on the hotspot?

Message 14 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

That device has turned out to be Netgear's Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot, which played a role in some of AT&T's demos here in Maui. This new hotspot has all the bands you'll find on Netgear's LTE hotspot, with 5G built on top of it. The hotspot is capable of 5 Gbps where there's wireless spectrum that supports those eye-popping speeds. The hotspot also has dual-band Wi-Fi.

 

AT&T is also offering 5G service with a rollout in 12 US cities this year, and plans to add service in seven other cities in early 2019. Initially, 5G will be available for AT&T customers using the Netgear Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot; it's the first standards-based mobile 5G device in the world that can access a live millimeter wave 5G network, according to AT&T. The Samsung phone will be AT&T's second 5G device, after the aforementioned Netgear Nighthawk mobile hotspot puck.

 

While the trials that both AT&T and Verizon have done so far only net speeds around 1Gbps to 2Gbps, 5G is supposed to offer up to 5Gbps speeds. 

 

To offer the fastest speeds with the lowest latency, AT&T will initially deploy its 5G network on a millimeter wave spectrum (mmWave). While mmWave can offer the fastest 5G service, it isn’t the most reliable.

High-band spectrum like mmWave doesn’t cover a large area and has relatively poor penetration. Over the next several years, AT&T will build out its 5G network around the country with small cells, and deploy service on more hearty spectrum bands. Until the rollout is complete, the service will piggyback off its robust LTE network.

 

Although AT&T will have 5G service in cities around the country by early 2019, it’s worth noting the service will likely be spotty. Expect to see the initial rollout in heavily trafficked areas like city centers, airports, and stadiums at first.

Message 15 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Given that mmWave and LAA frequencies will only cover at most a mile from the mast (exluding non-mobile applications with dedicated directional antenna), only the densest urban cores, stadiums, airports, convention centers, DAS installs, etc. are ever likely to see these frequencies and bandwidths.  Hence the emphasis on LTE-A with 3 & 4 CA, 4x4 MIMO, and 256QAM.  For the vast majority of the masses, LTE will continue to be the principle cellular data technology for the next 5 years.

 

The one exception will likely be Tmo and possibly Sprint.  Tmo has vast swaths of 600Mhz which could potentially be used for 5G.  Though given only 20Mhz of spectrum you won't get very high speeds.  But if Tmo can finally pull off their merger with Sprint, together, they may have enough bandwidth.

 

The Netgear blurb say "dual band" Wifi.  I wonder what they mean by that.  The current Nighthawk M1100 already has dual band Wifi (2.4&5.8).  But this pointless.  You cannot use 5.8Ghz if you want LAA.  And you cannot use 2.4GHz if you want speeds >54Mbit.

 

What the new Nighthawk needs is tri-band Wifi, or 2x 5.8Ghz radios.  One to receive LAA and one to talk to Wifi clients.  Or else, I'll continue to have to hook up a proper Wifi AP's to the MR1100's ethernet port.

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 16 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Hence the emphasis on LTE-A with 3 & 4 CA, 4x4 MIMO, and 256QAM. 

 

1) For most people, LTE means phones.  maybe a few laptops, tablets....but it's mostly phones.  forget about 5G and next gen stuff, what percentage of phones support 4 CA, 4x4 MIMO, 256 QAM, etc?   Unless you get these phones in peoples hands it doesn't really change most peoples experiences.  Developers and their solutions target mass market.  If most cell phones refuse to put LTE-A parts inside for many reasons like cost, battery, etc, why would they put 5G parts inside?  That said 5G has to be faster, better, cheaper than LTE-A if it ever wants to be mainstream.

 

2) Cell service plan throttling and data caps.  I'm not seeing cell providers removing or loosening their throttling or data caps for LTE-A let alone 5G.  Letting 5G customers go wild with 5G speeds for 30 seconds before they are throttled to 4G speeds is very restrictive.  Short term the only way is to charge a significant premium for 5G cell service.  5G speeds that have everyone excited take significantly more spectrum (think 100's of MHz, not 10's like 4G) This is why 5G is in the upper GHz blocks.  Which ties back into #1 above.  If you only have a few takers for 5G phones and more expensive 5G service, developers will continue to focus on the majority of customers on 4G.

 

3) Millimeter wave might as well be "yet another" LTE-A bolt-on.  Deployment is crazy expensive and thus will be very limited.  Existing cell towers are pretty ugly.  Cities, towns, suburbs will reject carrier permits trying to erect significantly higher density towers that are feet between them.  It is safe to say the ultra dense ugly cell tower approach is out.  In downtown areas millimeter wave equipment can be added to rooftops, sides of buildings, existing infrastructure without looking so awful.  If the area where you live would require new cell towers to make millimeter wave reach you, I do not see that happening.  I don't think anyone wants to see this grid of ugly towers in their backyard.

Message 17 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

So what kind of speeds can we actually expect from Motorola’s 5G mod? The company did some level-setting there, too. Though it’s theoretically capable of 5Gbps speeds, there are so many factors that Motorola’s now advertising a conservative estimate of 300 to 500Mbps. That’s plenty fast, but it’s less than one-tenth of those full theoretical speeds. “We feel that’s something that can be achieved,” says Michau of what “the average user” might see.

 

The 5G hype machine is all over the place.  Sounds like "real world" Gbps is not happening (at least for first gen 5G).  Even if you were to make a 5G connection at 500Mbps what would the "average user" do with it?  Tweet at 500Mbps?  Text message at 500Mbps?  Youtube at 500Mbps?  Unless the content providers (cnn.com, weather.com, etc) open 500Mbps pipes for each user it's not going to matter.  Additionally, "average users" world-wide have low to mid range phones that can not handle 500Mbps data streams (for example disk reads/writes at 500Mbps).

 

You have to have a 500Mbps capable phone (cpu, memory, disk, network interface, etc) + a 500Mbps cellular carrier connection + one or more content providers that can saturate a 500Mbps connection.  This is a small group of people (today) when we're talking about the world-wide population.  It's hard for carriers and content providers to justify such a costly build out for this small group of people.

 

5G at 500Mbps makes more sense to replace a home internet connection that is routinely shared with multiple users, laptops, cell phones, playstations, netflix streaming televisions, etc.

 

 

Message 18 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

What I find interesting/comical is that no one is talking about how the backhaul is going to keep up with 5G speeds.  In many (perhaps most?) locations backhaul cannot keep pace with LTE speeds (let alone LTE-A).

 

If one single airlink can potentially use anything even remotely close to 1Gbit.  What are they going to heave to feed each sector with?  40Gbit, 100Gbit?  The fiber costs alone will price them out of business.

 

But, you are absolutely correct re: content providers.  Netflix 4K streaming is only ~15Mbit/sec.  What would one possibly do with a gigabit of bandwidth on a mobile device?  Now lower latency, better network efficiency, better network capacity, fewer dropped frames, these are all things which would be useful.

 

No telemedicine or teleprescence or virtual / augmented reality applications will use cellular in the United States.  All of these business have a hardline.

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 19 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

AT&T has promised to launch 5G in “parts” of 12 cities this year. That seemingly minor detail actually speaks volumes about both the benefits and drawbacks of 5G.

5G was initially designed as a way to use millimeter-wave spectrum—this spectrum generally sits above 20 GHz and can transmit vast amounts of data. The drawback though is that it doesn’t transmit signals very far; Verizon, for example, noted that its 5G Home service on 28 GHz spectrum can reach roughly 3,000 feet.

Therefore, as AT&T deploys its own mobile 5G service in its 39 GHz spectrum, it will face significant challenges in getting it to reach across neighborhoods and cities simply due to the face that the signals don’t go very far. AT&T and the rest of the nation’s carriers are working to deploy small cells and other network infrastructure to counter this situation, but it’s slow going.

The most likely scenario here is that AT&T won’t provide specific coverage details in its initial 5G launch this year as it works to expand coverage throughout the coming years.

 

That last sentence LOL....be extremely wary of a 39GHz wireless service that refuses to tell customers the 39GHz wireless service coverage area.  It's a bad way to launch new technology that leaves a bad initial impression and a bad taste in everyones mouth.  In my eyes, this 39GHz service is just another 4G LTE bolt-on like LAA, CA, etc.  Each independent bolt-on may or may not be supported in your area.  Each independent bolt-on may be on one cell tower and then NOT on the next 75 cell towers as you drive down the road.  If you can't count on the service, developers will not make apps to support it, phone manufacturers will not take the financial hit to add the parts, etc.

 

Instead of 5G, the "average user" would be better off with an additional 10Mbps in speed.  If the "average user" speed in Texas was 25Mbps, AT&T should get it to 35Mbps.  For everyone.  That is progress.  That is raising the bar.  Promising 1 to 2 Gbps to customers with initial 5G but never actually delivering it to any significant population is not progress.  It is only a marketing scheme.

Message 20 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

1) AT&T announced their 5G+ service goes live December 21, 2018.

2) "5G+ is built to provide a mobile 5G experience over mmWave spectrum"  If you do not live on a mmWave enabled street this solution is not for you.

3) "Next spring, customers will be able to get the Nighthawk for $499 upfront"  AT&T is still "testing" with private groups....the Nighthawk is NOT generally available for sale yet.  AT&T is not even ready to announce a date when the Nighthawk will be available for sale other than to say sometime "next spring".

4) "15GB of data for $70 a month" If you have a requirement for 5G+ speeds, this plan makes no sense.  At 5G+ speeds 15GB will be consumed in one day or less.

5) AT&T has NO comment on 5G+ speeds customers can expect.  Is it 50Mbit? 500Mbit? 1Gbit?  AT&T is not ready to comment on that.

 

Bottomline: AT&T wants a big premium for 5G hardware paired with less data than customers have now.  AT&T is not ready to talk about 5G+ speeds which is the only reason businesses and customers would sign up for it in the first place.  The Nighthawk is not available for sale until "next spring" which is an interesting way of saying that the actual 5G+ launch just slipped by several months.

Message 21 of 48
TeeJay74
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Realistic viewpoints here. General public, please do not expect too much from 5G technology in 2019. Many experts consider 2020 will be a big year for 5G and I agree that too.

Message 22 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

$499?  Are they serious?  How about an MR1100 Gen3 that actually does LTE-A with 3x and 4x CA, 4x4 MIMO, and 256 QAM?  Like one that is as fast as a Samsung Galaxy S9 or an iPhone XS/Max with a big battery, ethernet, and dual 5GHz radios ?!?!

 

Do you recall the saying, "B.S., M.S., PhD.?"

 

It goes something like, "Bull Soup, More Soup, Piled Higher and Deeper."  of course you cannot pile soup.

 

 

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 23 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

AT&T and T-Mobile will both hit rural areas with 5G starting in late 2019. The key is low-band, frequency-divided (FDD) spectrum, which current 5G chipsets don't support. But that will be sorted out later this year. On that spectrum, you should expect about a 35 percent increase in speeds and capacity from 4G, but a major drop in latency. Those networks may not have the capacity for home internet, but they'll change rural life in different ways.

 

Hopefully the "spring 2019" nighthawk will support "low-band" 5G.  With the high cost of the nighthawk customers can not afford to buy a "mmWave only" version in 2019 before it immediately goes obsolete, then rebuy a 2020 version with mmWave + "low-band".  As we have already discovered with nighthawk 4G LTE, slipping in new bands to subsequent nighthawk revisions is awful for customers.

 

Up to 35 percent speed increase over typical LTE speeds may be hard for people to notice it.  But at least it is more believeable from a cell tower backhaul perspective.  A "bit faster" than 4G LTE is a far cry from the 5G hype machine with Gbit+ data pipes for everyone.

 

Message 24 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

AT&T confirmed that it will soon begin changing the “LTE” indicator on some of its current Android phones to “5G E” in markets where the company now offers 4x4 MIMO, 256 QAM and other advanced LTE network technologies.  AT&T’s “5G E” label will sit next to its “5G+” label, which the operator has applied to its mobile 5G service launching today in 12 cities. AT&T’s “5G+” label applies to transmissions in the operator’s millimeter-wave spectrum. (AT&T’s initial mobile 5G launch will transmit signals in its 39 GHz licensed spectrum band across 100 MHz of spectrum and 2x2 MIMO antennas.)

 

Message 25 of 48
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