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Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Great, as if faux(4)-G wasn't bad enough.  Now we'll have fake 5G, too.  Initially, I thought the 5GE moniker was going to be for sub-6GHz 5G service to distinguish it from mmWave which was 5G+  But I guess they couldn't help themselves.

 

5G for ALL!  Hell, if I already have "5G" why should I upgrade?

 

I have to admit, the LTE-A I've been getting in the Philly suburbs has been very nice on my iPhone XS Max -- 100-160Mbit easy, sometimes as high as 240Mbit.  Of course upload data rates are still very poor.  And my iPhone runs laps around my MR1100.

 

Funny thing is, in NJ where I live, very, very few towers have been upgraded.  Speeds are much slower typically only ~15-50Mbit.  You'll see the occasionaly tower that does ~100Mbit, but they are few and far between.  Even when driving in heavily trafficed areas like the NJTPK. 

 

Happy holidays everyone.  Now cough up $499 and pay $70/mo for 15GB.

 

So what happens when I put my unlimited plus plan SIM in a new M5 Nighthawk?  Will I get unlimited 5 GeeWiz?  Good thing I signed up for two of them before AT&T stopped offering them.

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 26 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

So what happens when I put my unlimited plus plan SIM in a new M5 Nighthawk? 

 

My guess is it will work, but only for speeds your plan is qualified for (ie LTE/5G Evolution).  Netgear is not going to stock older hotspots forever.  As customers break or lose their older hotspots they will need replacements.  mmWave and "low-band" 5G are just additional bands Netgear is adding to their hotspot offering.  All the normal LTE bands will be there.  As for the number of internal/external antennas we'll have to wait and see when the 5G+ nighthawk actually ships spring 2019.

Message 27 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

I have to admit, the LTE-A I've been getting in the Philly suburbs has been very nice on my iPhone XS Max -- 100-160Mbit easy, sometimes as high as 240Mbit.  Of course upload data rates are still very poor.  And my iPhone runs laps around my MR1100.

 

If both the iphone and MR1100 are running on AT&T, a youtube with the devices running side-by-side would be very helpful.  If you can demonstrate the MR1100 LTE-A is not working, existing MR1100 customers can pursue a replacement or upgrade to the 5G+ model with AT&T.

 

A benefit of netgear displaying the "5G E" indicator is to give customers insight to whether the tower they are connected to is LTE or "5G E".  If netgear is not detecting "5G E" enabled towers correctly then the LTE-A features/functions will not be used.

Message 28 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

https://about.att.com/newsroom/2018/5g_evolution_market_update.html

 

this web page states: “As a reminder, 5G Evolution markets are locations where we’ve deployed technologies that enable peak theoretical wireless speeds for capable devices of at least 400 megabits per second.  And, we plan to offer 5G Evolution in over 400 markets by the end of the year. In the first half of 2019 we plan to offer nationwide coverage, making 5G Evolution available to over 200 million people.”

 

"5G E" is way ahead of "5G+" in terms of rollout ("5G E" cell towers and "5G E" devices).  During 2017 and 2018 my "5G E" nighthawk with a single 700MHz external antenna has:

1) *rare* peak 50Mbit download

2) *most of the time* 20's to 30's Mbit download

3) *most of the time* 6 to 17 Mbit upload

 

I consider these speeds to be normal "LTE" scores.  I do not believe "5G E" is on my cell tower yet but there is no way to determine that by looking at the Nighthawk.

Message 29 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

https://about.att.com/newsroom/2018/5g_evolution_market_update.html

 

The other technology we’re using to lay the mobile 5G foundation is LTE-LAA.  With LTE-LAA, the network technologies have a peak theoretical wireless speed for capable devices of 1 gigabit per second. LTE-LAA is now live in parts of 20 cities with plans to reach at least 24 cities this year.

 

Even AT&T has a hard time describing "5G Evolution".  AT&T states "5G Evolution" gets you "theoritical" 400Mbps, while LAA gets you an additional "theoritical" 600Mbps for a grand total of a "theoritical" 1000Mbps.  In other words more than half of AT&T's hype machine 1Gbit speed is LAA.  AT&T comes right out and says LAA is only "in parts of 20 cities".  "In parts of" likely means certain streets or blocks just like 5G+.  The way AT&T describes it here it sounds like LAA is NOT part of the "5G Evolution" set of technologies.  Forget the names they call it, it sounds like the 400Mbps part will be nationwide by next summer which is pretty awesome.  And since AT&T does not say what LAA is going to do in 2019, there is probably not much to talk about.  "Theoritical" 400Mbps, let's assume half that speed in the real world with trees, buildings, weather, etc, giving us 200Mbps nationwide.  5G+ will not work for me anytime soon in my rural location, so I'm looking forward to 200Mbps on the "5G E" nighthawk.

Message 30 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

"the LTE-A I've been getting in the Philly suburbs has been very nice on my iPhone XS Max -- 100-160Mbit easy, sometimes as high as 240Mbit."

 

This result jives with the 400Mbit "5G E" (without LLA) service estimate of 200Mbit peak score in the real world.  200-240 Mbit range I would say that iPhone is getting the correct and expected score that AT&T intended to deliver.

 

The question is what does the nighthawk 5G E get at the same location and time?  My peak score on my 5G E Nighthawk is 50Mbit after running hundreds of tests over the last 12 months.  There is no way I am reaching your "100-160Mbit easy" scores.  It does not matter if I use WiFi or wired Gigabit ethernet, I can not get above 50Mbit.  My guess is "5G E" is NOT turned on in my rural location yet.

Message 31 of 48
dnogwat
Aspirant

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

At least you are getting 60-90 Mbit/sec in DL!!

 

Around a year ago I bought the Netgear AC790 and noticed that both DL and UL speed were terrible compared to my iPhone. With the AC790 I was reaching 30-40 Mbit/sec in both DL and UL, while with the iPhone 6s i was reaching 100-130 Mbit/sec.

 

Now a year later I have bought the Nighthawk mr1100 and have still the same problem. With my iPhone 8 i reach ~200 Mbit/sec while with the Nighthawk I still reach speeds around 50Mbit/sec.

 

How come the antenna's are so terrible in these things?? The APN's are the same in both the hotspots as in my phones ...

Message 32 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Hi @dnogwat,

 

Yes, that's the $64K question.  Folks with the MR1100 in Austrailian and European versions of the MR1100 get much better speeds on their respective versions than we do.  I used to think countries like Finland, for example, just had much better cell networks that we do.  But now that the iPhone and many Android phones (Samsung for example) rountinely post 100+ speeds with strong LTE signals, there definately seems to be something fishy.

 

There's a number of theories:

 

1) faulty hardware -- seems unlikely since we know the same/similar hardware works better in other countries.  And we know the Qualcomm X16 modem in the MR1100 is capable of good speeds when it is in a phone

 

2) poor software / firmware -- this is probably the most likely culprit.  But once again the software on the USA version shouldn't be that much different than the other versions.  So one would think that it should be capable of QAM256, 4x4 MIMO, and 3x and 4x CA which Netgear claims, and which seem to be working in other countries

 

3) poor band selection -- many of us have seen issues with poor band selection on the USA version of the MR1100.  And with no way to lock onto better performing bands this can definately impact performance

 

4) No evidence in the FCC filing that anything faster than QAM16 has been approved / demonstrated on the MR1100.  No sure whether this is a paperwork artifact, if it failed the RF tests, or the negotiated rate capabalities were intentionally held back.  I'm not an expert in these filings so perhaps it is there and I overlooked it?

 

So if we assume that the hardware and software are able to perform as intended, this leaves only one other option:

 

5) Intentional throttling -- Obviously hotspots have the potential to use a lot more cellular data that phones do.  Especially one with an Ethernet port that you can setup to provide whole home broadband.  On cellular phone plans, hotspot usage is limited to ~10 to 15GB.  But on our (no longer offered) unlimited hotspot plans, one can literally use 100's of GB's or even TB's per month.

 

I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but I find it very interesting that no hotspots in the United States, on any carrier, really perform that well.  You don't see speed test results with 100+ or 200+ DL speeds the way you do with Flagship phones, etc.  Let alone LAA DL examples.  Similarly there's no press releases / reviews showing these speeds either.

 

For the new M5 Fusion, there have been a few public tests of ~180 to 190Mbit DL.  Which is better.  But so far no better than my iPhone XS Max.

 

Verizon's hotspots are fairly antiquated, and T-Mo's are even worse (sometimes they don't even sell them).  Only AT&T seems to routinely release new (and often half baked) hotspots routinely.  And there are no/few unlocked third party hotspots and most of these have older chipsets.

 

It really seems like the carrier / vendor consortium are intentionally limiting hotspot performance in order to prop up Flagship phone speeds here in the US.  But that's just my opinion.

 

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 33 of 48
dnogwat
Aspirant

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Hi @JSchnee21,

 

Well I live in the Netherlands (europe) and still have the problem, so I dont think it has to do with the hardware or software. I think in my case its either the providers throtling the speed of mobile hotspots or poor band selection, since both the MR1100 and AC790 (I have two ac790's) appear not to go in 4g+.

Message 34 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

iPhones do not have any 5GE capabilities over the Nighthawk 5GE hotspot.

 

If you have a Nighthawk 5GE hotspot that is significantly slower than your iPhone on the same AT&T network, it's a Netgear problem.

 

@Blanca_O Any input from the Netgear team here?

Message 35 of 48
TeeJay74
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

My advice is that you should discuss about these LTE speed observations between different devices with AT&T RAN management specialist.

Message 36 of 48
schumaku
Guru

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device


@nhantenna wrote:

The question is what does the nighthawk 5G E get at the same location and time?  My peak score on my 5G E Nighthawk is 50Mbit after running hundreds of tests over the last 12 months.  There is no way I am reaching your "100-160Mbit easy" scores.


The Netgear 5G router announced end of October 2018, in the market since about mid December 2018 - unless you are an Alpha or Beta tester (and then you would be under an NDA) this is a blunt lie.

Message 37 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Note that he said, "Nighthawk 5G E".  Remember, that's AT&T's fake 5G.  Also know as LTE-A to the rest of the world.  I expect he is referring to his MR1100.

 

I'm not sure what an AT&T RAN is.  Is this like a tier 3 or 4 network support engineer?  It's hard enough to get to Tier 2.

 

My iPhone XS Max, when given a strong RF signal on an upgraded and lightly loaded tower routinely gets 150-220Mbit DL.  In contract on the MR1100 on the same tower(s) I max out at ~90-110Mbit.  I have verified that CA appears to be working on the MR1100. I routinely see at least two secondary carriers when benchmarking or streaking.

 

I suspect there is something amiss with QAM, MIMO, provisioning or both.  But, I also cannot rule out poor 5GHz 802.11ac wireless.  I haven't had time to try and benchmark the MR1100 on these towers using USB tethering.

 

But I have tried both 40MHz and 80MHz 802.11ac.  Which give PHYS links of ~400Mbit and 866Mbit respectively to my iPhone as both devices are 2x2.  2.4GHz is off.  I actually find the 40Mhz works a bit better as it has slightly better range and less interference.

 

A 400Mbit PHYS link should support ~40-60% of link rate in terms of real throughput. So I should have at least 200Mbit of real headroom -- but only see ~60-90Mbit routinely.  110Mbit was the fastest I've ever seen.  I've seen one other post in which one person got 147Mbit DL on their MR1100, once.  

 

Like I said, I see 150+ Mbit on my XSM every day.  There are at least 10 towers I pass during my commute to work which give these speeds.  That said, there are still many, many towers that max out at 30-50Mbit.

 

I do wish upload speeds were better.  Both the MR1100 and XSM are terrible (5-15Mbit).  Funny, my ZTE/AT&T Velocity 2 has great upload speeds (20-40Mbit) and it's download speeds are just shy of the MR1100.

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 38 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

"I'm not sure what an AT&T RAN is."

 

Radio Access Network Engineer.  Someone who can see exactly what is happening on the AT&T side.  You will likely have to provide your SIM card type info on the Nighthawk and iPhone.  Run the speedtests through both devices.  AT&T RAN will visually be able to see your connection details to explain what is happening.  If you are connected to AT&T's network the RAN can see everything about that connection.

 

I have the 5GE Nighthawk (5G Evolution).  I do NOT have a 5G+ Nighthawk (mmWave).

Message 39 of 48
nhantenna
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

@JSchnee21 "I have verified that CA appears to be working on the MR1100. I routinely see at least two secondary carriers when benchmarking or streaking."

 

Would love to know your steps to verify CA so I can try to reproduce on my Nighthawk.  Screenshots, links?

 

 

Message 40 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Sorry, I don't have a screen shot on me.  But if you follow these steps:

 

1) Connect MR1100 to PC via USB

2) Telnet to 192.168.1.1 5510     (note telnet to the IP of your MR1100, at port 5510)

3) Run this command in the Telnet session AT!GSTATUS?

4) Observer which bands you are connected to.

5) Initiate a speedtest on your laptop (I like Fast.net or the SpeedTest App (not url) from the Window 10 App store)

6) Run this command in the Telnet session AT!GSTATUS? again.  You'll see there are now additional bands lists to support the active data session from the speed test.  Assuming CA is available in your area.

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk LTE Mobile Hotspot Router (US)
Message 41 of 48
JohnDire
Aspirant

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

not bad

Message 42 of 48
MrBooMY
Aspirant

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

The reason the phones get better speed on ANY carriers network is simple. They know from the IMEI and MAC address of the device exactly what it is and allow service accordingly. My S10+ can pull double what my MR1100 can pull in the same location. That CAN'T be by chance. AT&T (in my case) has to be limiting bandwidth depending on the device. 75 mbps is best download on my MR1100. My S10+ in the same location (my house indoors) gets double the download and about the same upload.
Message 43 of 48
JSchnee21
Virtuoso

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

I tend to agree and see similar behavior with regard to my MR1100 and my iPhone XSM.  But of course there is no "proof" of this.

 

Interestings, if you look at the MR1100 FCC filings, it's actually not approved for high level QAM (e.g. 256) nor for 4x4 MIMO.  At least I've not found any of this info in the filings.

 

Clearly the MR1100 can perform well -- in Australia and Scandinavia.  Of course each region has a different hardware build, different firmware, different regulatory approvals, and different carriers.  So it's a bit apples and oranges.

 

But we all had so much hope for the MR1100, and it woefully underperforms its specs / potential irrespective of the cause(s).  Very sad for $250 (was $199 when I got mine).  No way in he-double hock sticks I'd ever shell out >$500 for the "5G" version.  At the moment, 5G is just a big of a farse as LAA.  Great if you live in the 1 to 2 square block radius it transmits over.  But otherwhise completely useless.

Model: MR1100|Nighthawk M1 Mobile Router
Message 44 of 48
Deja-Vu
Tutor

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Interesting. Just hope it's more successful than Netgears LTE/4G attempts. 

Message 45 of 48
Richard_J
Tutor

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

Is it better than Huawei 5G CPE Pro?

Model: MR2100|Mobiler Router Nighthawk M2
Message 46 of 48
gerardthone
Aspirant

Re: Nighthawk 5G Mobile Hotspot – World’s First Standards-Based Millimeter Wave Mobile 5G Device

I live in the rural area and I use a MR1100 with ATT. The ATT site is quite far and even with the 700MHz the throughput is low. TMobile just opened a 5G site 2 miles away but in band 71. Netgear, the 600MHz is a must if you want to penetrate the rural market.

Message 47 of 48
Cnjs2011
Aspirant

MR1100

I can't connect to my cell phone. When I put the password in it say wrong password
Model: MR1100|Nighthawk M1 Mobile Router
Message 48 of 48
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