Migrating disks backward from OS 6 to RAIDiator 4.2

[whartonw]

I have a failed 424 chassis running OS6.  Can I move the disks to an old but operating Ultra 4, running RAIDiator 4.2 in order to retrieve the data on the 424?

Thanks.

[Sandshark]

Only if you first convert the Ultra to OS6.  It's not a one-way trip, so you can revert to OS4.2.x later, if needed.  Just use a drive that's not a part of either NAS's array to do the conversion process.

The conversion process has been posted many times to the forum.  Do a search (I recommend Google rather than the forum's own search), and choose a recent posting from @StephenB that explains the process.

The reversion process is not as well documented, as few go that route.  But I can help if you get to that point.

[StephenB]

Just out of curiosity - what happened to the RN424?  The warranty is 5 years, so if you are the original owner you might look into getting an RMA from paid support (via my.netgear.com).

Netgear won't provide paid support on a converted NAS, so that is one consideration.  There is a small risk that the process could fail, and if that were to happen it might not be possible to get the NAS running again.

If you do decide to leave the Ultra running OS-6, then you should also consider increasing the RAM.  Your RN424 has 2 GB of RAM, your Ultra only has 1 GB.  Some folks who've done the conversion with just the stock memory have had problems with out-of-memory conditions.  The upgrade to 2 GB is inexpensive, and is simple to do. If you skip this step, be careful to only enabling services you need - e.g., don't enable file search, antivirus, etc.

(Optionally) make sure the latest BIOS is installed before you do the conversion.  To do this you install  http://www.readynas.com/download/addons/x86/4.2/BIOS_Update_Package_0.5-x86.bin as an add-on and reboot the NAS.  Do this after you backup the NAS.  This isn't necessary, but if you so want to update the bios it is easiest to do it prior to conversion

Basic instructions for the conversion itself are

1. BACKUP, BACKUP, BACKUP
2. Upload PREPR4TOR6_0.1-x86.bin as an add-on using the ReadyNAS web gui, but do not reboot afterwards (avoids the need to do manual factory resets)
3. Upload R4toR6_6.9.5.bin using the ReadyNAS web gui firmware update
4. After you upload the addon+firmware and reboot, it will update the firmware and start a factory default.
5. Go through the setup process on the converted NAS 
6. Update the NAS to the current OS 6 (check for updates will work).
7. Restore files from the backup.

Of course if you don't care about the data on the Ultra, you can skip steps 1 and 7.

If you want to go back to 4.2.31 later on, you can remove the Ultra disks (labeling by slot), and install a temporary disk.  Then set up the NAS on 4.2.31, and execute the conversion.  You will need to reverse the conversion afterwards, so you will need the temporary disk again when you do that.

Post conversion, you can power down the NAS, and migrate your disks (preserving slot order).  Then just power up, and the system should boot on OS-6, with your data and apps intact.

[whartonw]

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@StephenB wrote:

Just out of curiosity - what happened to the RN424? 

Since you asked, StephenB...the short answer is that I don't know yet.

Spontaneously, a few weeks ago, all the wired connections in my LAN were completely disconnected.  Many, many hours of trail-and-error troubleshooting later, I determined that the 424 connected to the Orbi router was the issue.  I can't imagine how this is possible, but then all I know about the inner workings of LANs would not take up a lot of disk space.  I got no usable help from the Orbi forum, (although a lot of attempts and commisation).  

Anyway, I am rapidly losing faith in Netgear over usability issues and the lack of sortware updating (I've got an Ultra that hums along like a Swiss watch, but needs software patches for network communication security so Windows will talk to it).  I have been researching a replacment for the 424.  Once I get the 424 off the my network, I plan to connect it directly to a computer via the network port and see if I can see if I can figure what's going on.

I don't mind paying Netgear for repairs, so that's probably what i'll do.  It's a quality piece of hardware.

I have the data on the 424 backed up, but it's a cloud backup, so if I could just put the disks into another chassis to retrieve the data, it would be quicker.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but I appreciate your interest.

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[whartonw]

Thanks, Sandshark.

I appreciate your reply.  If the 424 is beyond resusciaition, I think that's what I'll do.

w

[StephenB]

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@whartonw wrote:

I don't mind paying Netgear for repairs, so that's probably what i'll do.  It's a quality piece of hardware.

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They don't do repairs, but they will replace your NAS under warranty - which again is 5 years for the original purchaser. Since the RN424 was launched in Jan 2017, the warranty should still be valid.  This does assume you purchased from an authorized reseller.

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@whartonw wrote:

Spontaneously, a few weeks ago, all the wired connections in my LAN were completely disconnected.  Many, many hours of trail-and-error troubleshooting later, I determined that the 424 connected to the Orbi router was the issue.  I can't imagine how this is possible,

We'd be happy to help a bit here.  I suggest removing all the disks (labeling by slot), and powering up the NAS while connected to the router.  Then see if you get the same symptoms.  My guess is that you won't.

Then install RAIDar on a PC, and see if it finds the NAS (reporting a no disks status).  You should also see the NAS on your Orbi's device list.   https://kb.netgear.com/20684/ReadyNAS-Downloads

Let us know how those tests go.

[whartonw]

Thanks, StephenB.  I had not yet researched the return policy.  Sounds like a good plan.

I will also try connecting the empty chassis -- what do you think is causing the presence of the disks to cause the issue.  It's sorta mind boggling to me that one connected device can cause the router to disconnect dozens of wired devices!

[StephenB]

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@whartonw wrote:

  It's sorta mind boggling to me that one connected device can cause the router to disconnect dozens of wired devices!

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I am thinking that your NAS might be generating a packet storm (flooding your network with traffic). That could be a result of something installed on the NAS - a misbehaving app for instance.

Another possibility (hopefully not one you are dealing with) is that your NAS might have been hacked.

A similar scenario is if your NAS is set up to do cloud sync (google or onedrive for example) - a big upload or download could be taking away all your internet bandwidth.  That wouldn't cause any disconnections, but it would result in none of your devices being able to reach the internet.

Connecting the NAS diskless will let us know if something installed on the NAS is destabilizing your network, or whether it is an unusual chassis failure.

BTW, after the test you want to make sure that you reinstall the disks with the NAS powered down.

Are you using only one of the ethernet connections to connect to the Orbi? 

Do you have any ports forwarded to the NAS (or alternatively did you put in into the Orbi's DMZ)?

What apps (if any) have you installed on the NAS?

[whartonw]

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@StephenB wrote:

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@whartonw wrote:

  It's sorta mind boggling to me that one connected device can cause the router to disconnect dozens of wired devices!

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I just spent an hour on a response and it vanished when I clicked 'Post'.  "Authentication Failed".   Arrrggghhh!  Let's see if I can remember my response...

I am thinking that your NAS might be generating a packet storm (flooding your network with traffic). That could be a result of something installed on the NAS - a misbehaving app for instance.  Someone on the Orbi forum suggested something similar, that a device might be sending a stop frame; he suggested perhaps a disconnected USB-to-network adapter.  As I mentioned, I am not conversant enough with the inner workings of networking to evaluate this, but taking the 424 off the network is what solved the issue.

Another possibility (hopefully not one you are dealing with) is that your NAS might have been hacked.  Scary thought... but I have a ton of devices on the network, and nothing else is misbehaving.

A similar scenario is if your NAS is set up to do cloud sync (google or onedrive for example) - a big upload or download could be taking away all your internet bandwidth.  That wouldn't cause any disconnections, but it would result in none of your devices being able to reach the internet.  The cloud backup service (CrashPlan) pulls the data from the NAS, through one of the networked computers.  Also, the bulk of the data has long since been uploaded and just the changes are going back and forth now -- not a huge volume.  And, none of the dozen or so wireless devices, including laptops and smart phones, were disconnected.

Connecting the NAS diskless will let us know if something installed on the NAS is destabilizing your network, or whether it is an unusual chassis failure.

BTW, after the test you want to make sure that you reinstall the disks with the NAS powered down.  Glad you mentioned this.  I am so used to hot-swapping, I am sure that's what I would have done without your warning.

Are you using only one of the ethernet connections to connect to the Orbi?  Yes.  The router is connected only to an unmanaged 16-port switch (which is new; my first trouble shooting step after the "outage" was to replace this switch, thinking this the quickest and easiest first step).  Then there are smaller switches downstream, for example, a 5-port switch to which four NAS units are connected so they can talk to each other on their own shelf.

Do you have any ports forwarded to the NAS (or alternatively did you put in into the Orbi's DMZ)?  No

What apps (if any) have you installed on the NAS?  I am only using a couple of apps on the NAS, both of which are part of the NAS OS, the backup and the built-in anti-virus.  I haven't installed any third-party apps.  I use the backup app to pull data from the networked computers, taking that load off the computer processors.

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Stephen, the help you provide users is priceless.  Netgear builds the best hardware out there, but their software, difficult usability, lack of support response, and lack of OS maintenance for older products is unconscionable.  Thank you for the time and effort you put in here.

[whartonw]

@StephenB

It's sorta mind boggling to me that one connected device can cause the router to disconnect dozens of wired devices!

I just spent an hour on a response and it vanished when I clicked 'Post'.  "Authentication Failed".   Arrrggghhh!  Let's see if I can remember my response...  (See my complaint below about Netgear software)
 
I am thinking that your NAS might be generating a packet storm (flooding your network with traffic). That could be a result of something installed on the NAS - a misbehaving app for instance.  Someone on the Orbi forum suggested something similar, that a device might be sending a stop frame; he suggested perhaps a disconnected USB-to-network adapter.  As I mentioned, I am not conversant enough with the inner workings of networking to evaluate this, but taking the 424 off the network is what solved the issue.
 
Another possibility (hopefully not one you are dealing with) is that your NAS might have been hacked.  Scary thought... but I have a ton of devices on the network, and nothing else is misbehaving.
 
A similar scenario is if your NAS is set up to do cloud sync (google or onedrive for example) - a big upload or download could be taking away all your internet bandwidth.  That wouldn't cause any disconnections, but it would result in none of your devices being able to reach the internet.  The cloud backup service (CrashPlan) pulls the data from the NAS, through one of the networked computers.  Also, the bulk of the data has long since been uploaded and just the changes are going back and forth now -- not a huge volume.  And, none of the dozen or so wireless devices, including laptops and smart phones, were disconnected.
 
Connecting the NAS diskless will let us know if something installed on the NAS is destabilizing your network, or whether it is an unusual chassis failure.
 
BTW, after the test you want to make sure that you reinstall the disks with the NAS powered down.  Glad you mentioned this.  I am so used to hot-swapping, I am sure that's what I would have done without your warning.  You are good at anticipating pitfalls.
 
Are you using only one of the ethernet connections to connect to the Orbi?  Yes.  The router is connected only to an unmanaged 16-port switch (which is new; my first trouble shooting step after the "outage" was to replace this switch, thinking this the quickest and easiest first step).  Then there are smaller switches downstream, for example, a 5-port switch to which four NAS units are connected so they can talk to each other on their own shelf.

 
Do you have any ports forwarded to the NAS (or alternatively did you put in into the Orbi's DMZ)?  No
 
What apps (if any) have you installed on the NAS?  I am only using a couple of apps on the NAS, both of which are part of the NAS OS, the backup and the built-in anti-virus.  I haven't installed any third-party apps.  I use the backup app to pull data from the networked computers, taking that load off the computer processors.

      Stephen, the help you provide users is priceless.  Netgear builds the best hardware out there, but their software, difficult usability, lack of support response, and lack of OS maintenance for older products is unconscionable.  Thank you for the time and effort you put in here.

[whartonw]

All of my replies were typed in red but the color vanished when posted.  Another example of Netgear's fine programming...

[StephenB]

Fortunately, the red does show up when I quote your post 

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@whartonw wrote:

Someone on the Orbi forum suggested something similar, that a device might be sending a stop frame; he suggested perhaps a disconnected USB-to-network adapter.  As I mentioned, I am not conversant enough with the inner workings of networking to evaluate this, but taking the 424 off the network is what solved the issue.
 

Yes, I saw that.  That would be a bug related to ethernet flow control.  If that is the problem (which I don't think is likely), the network won't misbehave when you power up the NAS diskless.

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@whartonw wrote:

Scary thought... but I have a ton of devices on the network, and nothing else is misbehaving.
 

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Understood.  Though if the NAS were in the Orbi DMZ (or had ports forwarded) then it is a possibility.  It wouldn't necessarily spread to the PCs.

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@whartonw wrote:

The cloud backup service (CrashPlan) pulls the data from the NAS, through one of the networked computers.  Also, the bulk of the data has long since been uploaded and just the changes are going back and forth now -- not a huge volume.  And, none of the dozen or so wireless devices, including laptops and smart phones, were disconnected.

I use CrashPlan in a similar way (with the NAS volume mapped to network drive on a PC).  I don't think it's fast enough to disrupt your wired network.

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@whartonw wrote:

Are you using only one of the ethernet connections to connect to the Orbi?  Yes.  The router is connected only to an unmanaged 16-port switch (which is new; my first trouble shooting step after the "outage" was to replace this switch, thinking this the quickest and easiest first step).  Then there are smaller switches downstream, for example, a 5-port switch to which four NAS units are connected so they can talk to each other on their own shelf.

 

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I don't think you fully understood my question.  The RN424 has 2 LAN ports.  Did you connect both of them?  Or just one?  You should just connect one.  BTW, it's worth trying the diskless test using both adapters (one at a time, not together).

An ethernet loop can cause a packet storm (for instance, if you had two switches that were connected to each other, and also were both connected to a third switch or the router).  So you might want to double-check that you haven't accidentally put in a loop.

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@whartonw wrote:

What apps (if any) have you installed on the NAS?  I am only using a couple of apps on the NAS, both of which are part of the NAS OS, the backup and the built-in anti-virus.  I haven't installed any third-party apps.  I use the backup app to pull data from the networked computers, taking that load off the computer processors.

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That's useful to know.  Have you enabled ReadyCloud?

[whartonw]

@StephenB

Sorry, I did misunderstand.  There's only one ethernet cable connected to the NAS.

I have not activated ReadyCloud, and at the moment don't remember why I did not go that way.  I am aware of the service; seems like Netgear was in the middle of dropping an older service and replacing it with ReadyCloud, but I may be making that up.  May have been a cost comparison.  It's been awhile now.  I do remember getting a couple of strong recommendations for CrashPlan.

Do you use ReadyCloud?  Like it?

[StephenB]

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@whartonw wrote:

Do you use ReadyCloud?  Like it?

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I do not use it - I was only asking because it is a cloud service that might have been part of the puzzle.

Personally I use the OpenVPN client built into my Orbi router to get remote access to the ReadyNAS.

[whartonw]

@StephenB 

Never considered that.  May I ask why, ie, advantages, etc?

w

[StephenB]

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@whartonw wrote:

Never considered that.  May I ask why, ie, advantages, etc?

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ReadyCloud includes some features that OpenVPN doesn't - file sharing, backup, streaming, and sync in particular.  But I have other (IMO better) ways in place to do those things. All I really am looking for is secure remote access.

OpenVPN is secure, and gives me full access to everything on my home network when I'm away - not just the NAS.   It doesn't depend on Netgear servers, and the quality of service is more predictable than ReadyCloud.  The software is free, and it works well with Windows, MacOS, Android and iOS.

[whartonw]

@StephenB 

I like what you are saying.  I will dig into that.

Many thanks

ww

[StephenB]

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@whartonw wrote:

I like what you are saying.  I will dig into that.

As part of it, you need to enable the (also free) ddns service, so you can connect to your Orbi using a hostname. 

Recently the provider (noip) started requiring monthly confirmation that you still want the hostname - a mild annoyance, but all you need to do is click on the "confirm hostname" button in the email they periodically send, and then renew the hostname in your browser.

[whartonw]

@StephenB 

Hey.

Sorry for the delay; life kinda got in the way this week.

As you predicted, removing the disks from the 424 and restarting it does not cause network problems.  The unit goes into new-device-initial-setup mode.

Should I put in a new disk and start the setup mode, or simply assume hdw problems and start the warranty RMA process with Netgear?

Thanks.

ww

[StephenB]

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@whartonw wrote:

Should I put in a new disk and start the setup mode, or simply assume hdw problems and start the warranty RMA process with Netgear?

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I think it's more likely to be something going on with the OS on the disks (and that the hardware is ok).  If so, migrating to the Ultra won't help - the problem will move with the disks.

Do you have a local backup, or just the one on CrashPlan?

[Sandshark]

If you have a spare drive, then installing it and creating a volume is going to help diagnose the problem.  If it still doesn't cause the problem with a new volume, then the hardware isn't the problem.

Have you tried an OS re-install?

[whartonw]

@StephenB @Sandshark 

Hey Guys.

All seems to work fine with one (new) disk.  I'll load it up with 3 more and see what happens (after I reinstall the OS, as suggested).

Stay tuned, please...

ww

[Sandshark]

Reinstalling the OS with the new drive will accomplish nothing.  It already has a fresh load of the OS.  The OS re-install is for your original volume, in case something in it became corrupt.  An OS re-install doesn't wipe all of your configuration, so it won't help if that's where the problem lies, but it's worth a try before going through the hassle of a factory default and re-loading all data, assuming your tests bear out that the hardware is fine.

[whartonw]

@Sandshark 

So the OS resides in the volume, not in the NAS memory?!

I learn something new everytime you guys sit at a keyboard.  Thanks.

ww

[Sandshark]

Yes, the OS that's in use completely resides on the drives, in a separate partition.  The flash memory contains a boot loader, which includes the boot menu items, and a fresh copy of the OS whose only purpose is to be copied to the drives, either as a part of initial set-up, or when commanded via an OS Update selection in the boot menu.