Hi, Just providing some feedback on my experience with NETGEAR and the ReadyNAS product. In a nutshell, the best use I can find for my [brand new] readynas 104 is as a boat anchor, and I will never buy a readyNAS (or a NetGear product) again.
I bought a ReadyNAS 104 three months ago, equipped with two brand new WD Red 3TB hard drives. I first experienced the annoyance of "certified" 3rd party apps that don't install properly - I guess it can't all be blamed on NETGEAR, but what's the point of certification if not to at least validate it installs properly?
I then had a first interaction with NETGEAR's Technical Support after my NAS crashed just after the initial install (the famous "Device is offline" issue, no access to network shares). I was instructed to simply unplug and replug, "it could have been a third party app"...
After having copied close to 3TB of data to the NAS, it crashed a second time ("Device is offline"), but this time would not come back up after unplug / replug. Because at that time I was in the process of organising my data before setting up automatic back-ups, not all my data had been backed-up - so I had to get NETGEAR's Technical Support to remote into the NAS and copy the data across from the NAS to separate USB drives (which took 2 days to complete). I was told the issue "probably came from the fact that you upgraded the firmware to version 6.1.4/6.1.5 without doing a factory reset", as the "size of the blocks had changed and it may create some instability" (while the "disks have been checked and appear 100% healthy"). It wasn't the cause as I found out later, but I note that this risk of instability is not documented when the "update firmware" button is just a click away on the Front View interface. But anyway, the file system was corrupt and I wasn't keen for it to happen again, I needed to do something, so I followed the advice NETGEAR's Tech Support gave me: do a factory reset.
Following their instructions, I did a full factory reset, re-installed everything, setup all the users etc, and re-copied across the 3 TB of data. As it seemed to be working all good, I deleted my separate back-ups to create space to setup again the automated back-ups from the NAS to a network drive. As the copy process was underway, the NAS crashed again. NETGEAR Tech Support again, the file system is corrupt again, "suspect the NAS chassis is faulty", maybe a "memory issue". The tech attempted a data recovery, which succeeded on 70% of my data, but the remaining 30% is lost.
So to summarise: I used my NAS for 3 weeks out of the 3 months I've owned it. The NAS File System became corrupt twice, 30% of my data could not be recovered, whilst the main reason I bought the NAS in the first place was to have a reliable storage place to save all my data. Now NETGEAR support provided me with the option of an RMA swap with postage at my own expense, and refused to waive the $30 fee for the "Advance Ground" option which caters for prepaid postage. If you ask me, a product with this type of fault is not fit for purpose. When you are a company that makes storage devices, the least you can do for a customer that goes through 2 months of recovery process and loses some of his data as a result of your product having intermittent faults, you do go the extra mile rather than hide behind the liability waivers that your legal department have put together as a condition to get access to Technical Support (really unacceptable from my perspective, but as a customer you have no choice, particularly when your data is no longer accessible). The whole thing is a disgrace, and I'm done with ReadyNAS, never again. A word to the wise.
Looking at your case history I see two cases, one of which was resolved quickly and another created two and a half months later which took two weeks (after one week you were already restoring your data from backup after performing a factory reset). Am I missing something?
The leafsize/nodesize change was made for performance/stability reasons. When a volume gets full in a 104 with high capacity disks if it was last factory reset on 6.1.4 or earlier then in some cases performance may suffer and in some cases you may encounter stability issues. That issue is not a problem caused by a firmware update, but rather one that can be solved by updating the firmware to 6.1.5+ and doing a factory reset on 6.1.5 or later. Clearly there was more than that going on here.
I see from the case notes that you were using two RAID-0 volumes. We do not recommend RAID-0 as you don't have any protection against disk failure using that. If RAID-0 is used with important data then multiple regular backups are even more vital than they would be otherwise. With RAID-0 you also need to be prepared that data added since your last backup may be lost.
Having encountered an issue that needed a factory default it would have been advisable to be extra cautious with backups and not to have overwritten your old backup but rather made a new one to another source. Of course how cautiously you proceed depends on various factors including the importance of your data, your budget for purchasing hardware for backups etc.
Something I'm also not clear on is what RAID level you chose to use after the factory default, whether you continued to use RAID-0 or switched to using X-RAID.
It is unfortunate but hardware can and does fail at any time. Our support techs work hard to provide helpful advice and to solve problems without data loss wherever possible. I note that the agent handling the case pointed out that RAID-0 is not recommended and took great care to request you make a backup and to provide a solution that minimised the risk of data loss.
Hi Thanks for your reply. You are indeed missing a few things regarding my case history, which is as described in my previous post. In summary to answer your question on raid configuration: - initial setup using raid 0 and upgrade to 6.1.9. - first "device is offline/do not reboot your device" crash, escalated to Support and quickly closed after instructing me to unplug/replug. The NAS comes back up. - second "device is offline" crash, NAS doesn't reboot, escalated to support, this time one of the two volumes is corrupted. Advised to copy data somewhere else (which takes ages due to slow data recovery process and constraints swapping drives around because I don't have a second NAS to copy the data to). Health of both HDD is checked and confirmed by netgear support. Proceed with factory reset as instructed, in Raid-X as recommended (single volume) and copy all data back to NAS. Ticket closed. - third "device is offline" crash, in the middle of the copy process for a new back-up. Ticket reopen. The file system is corrupt, the NAS doesn't reboot with either of the disks in (I.e. the redundancy doesn't work. Isn't it the point of RAID redundancy in a two-HD configuration that when there's a HD failure, the other drive still allows to rebuild the volume? Oh but it's not a HD failure). "Low level"/"last resort" data recovery recovers about 70% of data. - netgear support tells me I have to pay for postage to swap the chassis. Big joke, still laughing.
Granted that, considering the problems I had already faced and as wandermerwe also rightfully pointed out, I could have been more cautious and kept a second copy of my backup until I confirmed that the first backup completed successfully. I was a fool to think I could trust the NAS for a couple of hours, as the later events showed. But at the same time, I would have needed two other 3 TB drives, and maybe another NAS from another supplier?
What I find most annoying is that, instead of trying to be accommodating both the NETGEAR support consultant I talked to and yourself mdgm keep saying that hardware can fail. Of course it can fail. Does it mean that you can sell an unreliable product and pretend it is the responsibility of the customer to not rely on it at all? I would expect that a NAS doesn't fail several times in the first 3 months of its life, and if it does you as a manufacturer face your responsibilities and do the right thing by your customer. By the way, as far as I can see, nothing is pointing to the hardware anymore than the software in this particular case (but you probably know something I don't, do you?).
Side comment: I do agree, based on the third crash, that the instability for pre-6.1.5 installations is not at play in my case since I did do a factory reset and moved to x-RAID based on advice from your support (arguably I would probably have lost less data, had I stayed with a RAID 0 configuration, but it was hard to guess that the product could actually corrupt both disks in an X-RAID configuration). Even though it was not at play in my case, I still find amazing that you do not warn users about the necessity of doing a factory reset *before* they do a firmware update, while it is just a click away on front view.
Anyway all things considered, I was ready to accept all this as a result of bad luck/fate, but what really gets me is that my story is considered a standard support case that does not necessitate any particular commercial attention: it's a normal failure and NETGEAR won't even consider waiving its standard RMA fees. I hear a pretty clear message: "we sell an unreliable product, do not rely on it, if you do we're not responsible, please join the queue to complain and pay to have your product replaced by another one which by the way you should not rely on either".
You are indeed missing a few things regarding my case history, which is as described in my previous post. In summary to answer your question on raid configuration: - initial setup using raid 0 and upgrade to 6.1.9. - first "device is offline/do not reboot your device" crash, escalated to Support and quickly closed after instructing me to unplug/replug. The NAS comes back up.
At that point with the case not reopened (and no new one made), the issue was considered resolved.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
- second "device is offline" crash, NAS doesn't reboot, escalated to support, this time one of the two volumes is corrupted. Advised to copy data somewhere else (which takes ages due to slow data recovery process and constraints swapping drives around because I don't have a second NAS to copy the data to). Health of both HDD is checked and confirmed by netgear support. Proceed with factory reset as instructed, in Raid-X as recommended (single volume) and copy all data back to NAS. Ticket closed.
Again the issue was considered resolved. Considering the time that had elapsed between the cases this second case would be deemed to be a separate issue
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
- third "device is offline" crash, in the middle of the copy process for a new back-up. Ticket reopen.
Considering this happened shortly after the second case, it could be considered part of the same problem and in this case it was so soon that the ticket could be reopened.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
The file system is corrupt, the NAS doesn't reboot with either of the disks in (I.e. the redundancy doesn't work. Isn't it the point of RAID redundancy in a two-HD configuration that when there's a HD failure, the other drive still allows to rebuild the volume? Oh but it's not a HD failure). "Low level"/"last resort" data recovery recovers about 70% of data.
Filesystem corruption is one thing that can go wrong. Corruption can affect all disks.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
- netgear support tells me I have to pay for postage to swap the chassis. Big joke, still laughing.
The warranty covers the hardware. The 104 is a home product, and as few users need a RMA it is not priced to include postage for Advanced Ground replacement.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
Granted that, considering the problems I had already faced and as wandermerwe also rightfully pointed out, I could have been more cautious and kept a second copy of my backup until I confirmed that the first backup completed successfully. I was a fool to think I could trust the NAS for a couple of hours, as the later events showed. But at the same time, I would have needed two other 3 TB drives, and maybe another NAS from another supplier?
Well again it does come down to how important your data is to, your budget etc. A factory default is not normally necessary and having encountered such a situation it is prudent to be cautious.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
What I find most annoying is that, instead of trying to be accommodating both the NETGEAR support consultant I talked to and yourself mdgm keep saying that hardware can fail. Of course it can fail. Does it mean that you can sell an unreliable product and pretend it is the responsibility of the customer to not rely on it at all?
No product, no matter how reliable should be trusted to store the only copy of important data at any time. Filesystem corruption in some cases, multiple disk failures, accidental file deletions, fire, flood, theft etc. are all problems which can be encountered. Businesses can spend e.g. hundreds of thousands on servers and still see the crucial importance of backup.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
I would expect that a NAS doesn't fail several times in the first 3 months of its life
The first time may have been at least partially due to the way it was configured, but in the end the issue was diagnosed as defective hardware. Hardware can fail and it is unfortunate.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
and if it does you as a manufacturer face your responsibilities and do the right thing by your customer.
It's my view that our agent took great pains to do what was right by you and that the time taken for the case was not unreasonable given what transpired.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
By the way, as far as I can see, nothing is pointing to the hardware anymore than the software in this particular case (but you probably know something I don't, do you?).
Looking in your case notes there was a rare error that I hadn't seen before. I spoke with the support agent who handled your case and he hadn't seen the issue before either.
This would suggest as the agent handling the case concluded that a hardware problem is likely, possibly bad memory (RAM).
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
Side comment: I do agree, based on the third crash, that the instability for pre-6.1.5 installations is not at play in my case since I did do a factory reset and moved to x-RAID based on advice from your support
The pre-6.1.5 issue may well have been at play but it was not the only issue. The advice to use X-RAID was good advice. I don't think any regular on these forums would recommend RAID-0 over X-RAID for important data.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
(arguably I would probably have lost less data, had I stayed with a RAID 0 configuration, but it was hard to guess that the product could actually corrupt both disks in an X-RAID configuration).
With RAID-0 corruption is more likely to be an issue than with RAID-1. If the same stripe isn't affected on both disks, with X-RAID there is a much better chance of recovering data. RAID-0 can be useful for performance (though the wireless network if accessing over wireless and the gigabit network connection are bottlenecks) but a striped RAID-0 array is very risky.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
Even though it was not at play in my case, I still find amazing that you do not warn users about the necessity of doing a factory reset *before* they do a firmware update, while it is just a click away on front view.
A factory reset is not necessary before/after doing a firmware update. A factory default after a firmware update is optional and does have some benefits such as filesystem improvements and the general benefits one would get from any clean install.
NotSoReadyNAS wrote:
Anyway all things considered, I was ready to accept all this as a result of bad luck/fate, but what really gets me is that my story is considered a standard support case that does not necessitate any particular commercial attention: it's a normal failure and NETGEAR won't even consider waiving its standard RMA fees. I hear a pretty clear message: "we sell an unreliable product, do not rely on it, if you do we're not responsible, please join the queue to complain and pay to have your product replaced by another one which by the way you should not rely on either".
Whilst we sympathise with what our customers go through, and some of us like myself feel great empathy with those who have lost data (I lost data when the hard disks in both my laptop and USB disk failed, before I ever got a NAS), the costs of fees have to be paid for whether it is upfront in the purchase price of a product or as needed by the small number of users who need it. We feel that it is fairer for the customers who need it to pay for advanced ground shipping rather than to include it in the purchase price, especially for home products such as the 104. For those home users who need a low level of downtime there is the option to purchase it. We also feel it is better for our customers to provide the choice to purchase it rather than to not provide it all. I hear NAS gurus who have tried several brands not recommending some solely because it takes too long to get replacement hardware when a RMA is needed and the manufacturer provides no option to speed things up for those who want it.
We believe in our ReadyNAS products and we back them with lengthy warranties. A lot of hardware you can buy will only come with a 1 year warranty. We back our home NAS units with a 3 year limited hardware warranty and our business NAS units with a 5 year limited hardware warranty. I hear from users who have tried multiple brands positive feedback about the quality of our hardware.
No warranty though can guarantee 100% that your data will remain safe from any company. Our engineers spend great amounts of time working hard to make sure our products are reliable as possible. We understand the pain that data loss can cause and the need to be vigilant in thoroughly testing our software and to continue to look for new ways to provide better protection for data. I see data protection as one of the key strengths of the ReadyNAS which makes it stand out from the competition. It was a key factor in our decision to move to using the BTRFS filesystem in our OS6 products.
I'm not going to respond point by point to your message (I personally am not paid to write on this forum, and it's pointless to try to argue with you as it's obvious this discussion isn't going anywhere). I have expressed my view and experience of the quality of your product, to warn other users. If you are so confident about the reliability of your product, I suggest you publish MTBF statistics for hardware and tech support fault rates for the main HW & SW issues, and let the consumers judge by themselves rather than say your engineers are working hard (ever noticed how every time a company has problems they are always "working hard" at resolving them?).
We value openness on this forum and the freedom of users to express their views and share them with others.
I don't have those statistics. In any case by the time you get an accurate picture of how reliable a particular model has turned out to be it's likely already discontinued. We design our products to generally last much longer than the warranty period. Some customers are still using units that are now around 10 years old.
One or more disks are likely to fail before the NAS does.
Inevitably it is users who have issues who are more likely to post on forums etc.
We have released new products over time. Each new product requires hard work to make sure we get it right.
Each firmware update introduces changes and it has to be verified that these changes don't cause problems. It has to be an area of continual focus.
We feel working hard to proactively look at ways to provide better protection of data, to maintain our competitive advantage over our competitors is vital and make no apologies for doing so.
Naturally it is in both our interests and our customers' interests to do everything in our power to minimise the number of cases where there is data loss.
For all the features a NAS has there is nothing more important than protection of data. Our next release has a major new feature when it comes to data protection that takes it to another level. This new feature is not available from our competitors.
Regardless of whether you agree with the rest of what I've said if you agree with the need for multiple backups (preferably with at least one offsite at all times) for important data no matter which device you use for primary storage then I feel you've learnt the most important lesson from your experience.
Backups can be made to USB disks, the cloud, another NAS etc.
Hi, Just providing some feedback on my experience with NETGEAR and the ReadyNAS product. In a nutshell, the best use I can find for my [brand new] readynas 104 is as a boat anchor, and I will never buy a readyNAS (or a NetGear product) again.
I bought a ReadyNAS 104 three months ago, equipped with two brand new WD Red 3TB hard drives. I first experienced the annoyance of "certified" 3rd party apps that don't install properly - I guess it can't all be blamed on NETGEAR, but what's the point of certification if not to at least validate it installs properly?
I then had a first interaction with NETGEAR's Technical Support after my NAS crashed just after the initial install (the famous "Device is offline" issue, no access to network shares). I was instructed to simply unplug and replug, "it could have been a third party app"...
After having copied close to 3TB of data to the NAS, it crashed a second time ("Device is offline"), but this time would not come back up after unplug / replug. Because at that time I was in the process of organising my data before setting up automatic back-ups, not all my data had been backed-up - so I had to get NETGEAR's Technical Support to remote into the NAS and copy the data across from the NAS to separate USB drives (which took 2 days to complete). I was told the issue "probably came from the fact that you upgraded the firmware to version 6.1.4/6.1.5 without doing a factory reset", as the "size of the blocks had changed and it may create some instability" (while the "disks have been checked and appear 100% healthy"). It wasn't the cause as I found out later, but I note that this risk of instability is not documented when the "update firmware" button is just a click away on the Front View interface. But anyway, the file system was corrupt and I wasn't keen for it to happen again, I needed to do something, so I followed the advice NETGEAR's Tech Support gave me: do a factory reset.
Following their instructions, I did a full factory reset, re-installed everything, setup all the users etc, and re-copied across the 3 TB of data. As it seemed to be working all good, I deleted my separate back-ups to create space to setup again the automated back-ups from the NAS to a network drive. As the copy process was underway, the NAS crashed again. NETGEAR Tech Support again, the file system is corrupt again, "suspect the NAS chassis is faulty", maybe a "memory issue". The tech attempted a data recovery, which succeeded on 70% of my data, but the remaining 30% is lost.
So to summarise: I used my NAS for 3 weeks out of the 3 months I've owned it. The NAS File System became corrupt twice, 30% of my data could not be recovered, whilst the main reason I bought the NAS in the first place was to have a reliable storage place to save all my data. Now NETGEAR support provided me with the option of an RMA swap with postage at my own expense, and refused to waive the $30 fee for the "Advance Ground" option which caters for prepaid postage. If you ask me, a product with this type of fault is not fit for purpose. When you are a company that makes storage devices, the least you can do for a customer that goes through 2 months of recovery process and loses some of his data as a result of your product having intermittent faults, you do go the extra mile rather than hide behind the liability waivers that your legal department have put together as a condition to get access to Technical Support (really unacceptable from my perspective, but as a customer you have no choice, particularly when your data is no longer accessible). The whole thing is a disgrace, and I'm done with ReadyNAS, never again. A word to the wise.
Hi, I just want to say I've been experiencing similar problems with ReadyNAS (RN516). The most annoying part is the problems with apps (there are many more which I wont go into) - not only it takes super long time to install / uninstall them, but also since 6.2.2 it seems almost every uninstall of an app crashes the system. Meaning the Apache crashes so that most of the NAS functionality is gone, or so I've been told by support. i also lost data - the files simply vanished from share... at the least I still have Synology as backup for my data.
And BTW, there is something seriously wrong with Backup jobs. I set one up to use SMB / Windows authentication with Synology as destination for 1GB of files. The job would run for hours and then NAS was experiencing serious resource drain - to the point that I could not use it.
This would be my 4th try. 1st time support fixed it, and then I did factory reset two times.
At the moment I am waiting for the 3rd level support to call me back. I will give it a go one last time, and if the unit is unusable then it will go back to the store.
