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Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed

intermelt
Aspirant

Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed

Got my Nighthawk AX12 Beta unit the other day. I'll be returning it in a few days.

Some of the most common features of a $25 router are missing. At $20 a month lease I would expect this to have cutting edge configuration options withing the firmware. I was not expecting a locked down interface that is no more (or even less) responsive than any other standard router. Any save takes 10's os seconds up to minutes. The hardware is fully capable of instant updates to any configuration changes. The software is an obvious problem.

 

Want to configure a VPN?... hope you only use the 1 VPN provider you can configure which is also advertised within the admin interface. That alone should make the router free.

This is definitely not worth the lease price and will definitely not be worth the retail price as a purchased device.

 

I don't understand why Netgear has created and delivered a premium hardware device that is crippled by the and locked down formware with minimal configuration options.

 

As far as greater bandwitdh, speed, or reception on wireless devices. No difference than my AC1900 which took a lightening strike and is using the open source Merlin firmware to compensate for a dead WAN port.

Message 1 of 11
schumaku
Guru

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed


@intermelt wrote:

Some of the most common features of a $25 router are missing...


Such as what? Provide a list, otherwise Netgear will never understand and hopefully ... learn!

 


@intermelt wrote:

The hardware is fully capable of instant updates to any configuration changes. The software is an obvious problem.


As I said - router specs from the late 1990ties when Netgear pushed their first router to the market (at that time, that was a leading edge OEM model from ZyXEL ... now IPsec is gone, OpenVPN was added) beyond almost nothing changed - leaving alone of many issues and problems on almost the complete line of Netgear consumer routers where the communty is full with it.

 


@intermelt wrote:

Want to configure a VPN?... hope you only use the 1 VPN provider you can configure which is also advertised within the admin interface.


One more ... depending on the VPN provider who made the most noise (or promotion for Netgear) ... that's the "referred" one for the time of a router release. One big mess.

 

No way to upload a custom OpenVPN config?

 

For providing multiple VPN providers (and probably one day simply at least two WAN/Internet interfaces) there is no way around the ability to configure policy routing - so you can have all configs up, and put devices to the destinations desired. this is a key feature I'd expect from a leading edge consumer router today.

 


@intermelt wrote:

I don't understand why Netgear has created and delivered a premium hardware device that is crippled by the and locked down formware with minimal configuration options.


As above - leaving the changed colour scheme alone, it looks like yet another outdated incarnation of Netgear consumer standard code. Changing seems ot be very difficult - or they still don't understand why one would pay several hundred Dollars for a leading edge router.

 


@intermelt wrote:

As far as greater bandwitdh, speed, or reception on wireless devices. No difference than my AC1900  


Of curse ... not sure where you are coming from - for 802.11ac clients it's still a 802.11ac wireless AP and router. There is no magic, beyond of the fat that you might have slightly gained for multiple concurrent clients thanks to the MU-MIMO - the future is with Wi-Fi 6 (802.11ax) clients - top of the line clients will provide much higher bandwidth.

 

 

Message 2 of 11
Redtulips7
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed


@intermelt wrote:

Got my Nighthawk AX12 Beta unit the other day. I'll be returning it in a few days.

Some of the most common features of a $25 router are missing. At $20 a month lease I would expect this to have cutting edge configuration options withing the firmware. I was not expecting a locked down interface that is no more (or even less) responsive than any other standard router. Any save takes 10's os seconds up to minutes. The hardware is fully capable of instant updates to any configuration changes. The software is an obvious problem.

 

Want to configure a VPN?... hope you only use the 1 VPN provider you can configure which is also advertised within the admin interface. That alone should make the router free.

This is definitely not worth the lease price and will definitely not be worth the retail price as a purchased device.

 

I don't understand why Netgear has created and delivered a premium hardware device that is crippled by the and locked down formware with minimal configuration options.

 

As far as greater bandwitdh, speed, or reception on wireless devices. No difference than my AC1900 which took a lightening strike and is using the open source Merlin firmware to compensate for a dead WAN port.

 

I am agreed 100% no difference than other Router!!! HT160 is missing!! UI seems like 1975


 

Nighthawk AX12[RAX120]
Nighthawk X10[R9000]
Message 3 of 11
Redtulips7
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed


@schumaku wrote:

@intermelt wrote:

Some of the most common features of a $25 router are missing...


Such as what? Provide a list, otherwise Netgear will never understand and hopefully ... learn!

 


@intermelt wrote:

The hardware is fully capable of instant updates to any configuration changes. The software is an obvious problem.


As I said - router specs from the late 1990ties when Netgear pushed their first router to the market (at that time, that was a leading edge OEM model from ZyXEL ... now IPsec is gone, OpenVPN was added) beyond almost nothing changed - leaving alone of many issues and problems on almost the complete line of Netgear consumer routers where the communty is full with it.

 


@intermelt wrote:

Want to configure a VPN?... hope you only use the 1 VPN provider you can configure which is also advertised within the admin interface.


One more ... depending on the VPN provider who made the most noise (or promotion for Netgear) ... that's the "referred" one for the time of a router release. One big mess.

 

No way to upload a custom OpenVPN config?

 

For providing multiple VPN providers (and probably one day simply at least two WAN/Internet interfaces) there is no way around the ability to configure policy routing - so you can have all configs up, and put devices to the destinations desired. this is a key feature I'd expect from a leading edge consumer router today.

 


@intermelt wrote:

I don't understand why Netgear has created and delivered a premium hardware device that is crippled by the and locked down formware with minimal configuration options.


As above - leaving the changed colour scheme alone, it looks like yet another outdated incarnation of Netgear consumer standard code. Changing seems ot be very difficult - or they still don't understand why one would pay several hundred Dollars for a leading edge router.

 


@intermelt wrote:

As far as greater bandwitdh, speed, or reception on wireless devices. No difference than my AC1900  


Of curse ... not sure where you are coming from - for 802.11ac clients it's still a 802.11ac wireless AP and router. There is no magic, beyond of the fat that you might have slightly gained for multiple concurrent clients thanks to the MU-MIMO - the future is with Wi-Fi 6 (802.11ax) clients - top of the line clients will provide much higher bandwidth.

 

I don't see any improvement over X9000 Router nothing in range or speed regardless 2.4 or 5Ghz

 

 


 

Nighthawk AX12[RAX120]
Nighthawk X10[R9000]
Model: RAX120| AX6000 - Nighthawk AX12 12-Stream Wi-Fi 6 Router
Message 4 of 11
intermelt
Aspirant

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed


@schumaku wrote:

@intermelt wrote:

Some of the most common features of a $25 router are missing...


Such as what? Provide a list, otherwise Netgear will never understand and hopefully ... learn!

 

As far as a list of what is missing and considered fairly common and/or obvious... I'll put that together in the next day or two.

However I think Netgear already has that list. Probably more thourough than anything I could come up with. I assume they have tried (and use) all the 3rd party firmware that is available. 

After reflecting a bit on what I said and the comments posted. I am leaning towards the idea that Netgear is just doing an expirement which they may be calling Market Research. The problem is they aren't trying to make the best product or revolutionize the (wireless) router industry with cutting edge (maybe future proof) hardware. They are trying to figure out the cheapest (what is the minimum they can get away with) and most profitable (how many times and for how much can we re-lease a piece of hardware) way to continue business.

My guess would be some smart engineer was like... hey, we can make our **bleep** future proof with some SDRs, FPGAs and a few modern processors. It will only cost 2 x our most expensive router. However we can do amazing things in software for years to come! We can let people subscribe to these awesome updates.

Then some marketing dude or bean counter **bleep**ed it all up. Now they will just be stuck with several tons of returned routers that will soon be on Woot for $99/each and paperweights for those that can't replace the firmware (assuming that will even be possible).

Message 5 of 11
schumaku
Guru

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed


@Redtulips7 wrote:

I don't see any improvement over X9000 Router nothing in range or speed regardless 2.4 or 5Ghz


Of course not (again, sorry) ... with the same 802.11n or 802.11ac standards clients so the very same same standard, similar power (regulatory limited), ... speed differences and enhanced performance when using shared wireless with many different IoT (future, 802.11ax - Wi-Fi 6 devices) won't become visible before you have capalbe Wi-Fi 6 (802.11ax) clients. 

 

A Fast Ethernet 100BASE-T link from 1995 does perform like a Fast Ethernet link form 2019. A Gigabit Ethernet 1000BASE-T link from 1998 does perform like a Gigabit Ethernet link from 2019. The only diference is that the per-port cost came down massively.

 


@intermelt wrote:

However I think Netgear already has that list. Probably more thourough than anything I could come up with. I assume they have tried (and use) all the 3rd party firmware that is available.


Lots of try-out in the last to years ... the abandoned LPC (OpenDNS), Netgear Armor (Bitdefender), or Circle - none of the newer attempts became systematically available ike LPC - and not at all on the leading edge products.

 


@intermelt wrote:

However I think Netgear already has that list. Probably more thourough than anything I could come up with. I assume they have tried (and use) all the 3rd party firmware that is available.


Lots of try-out in the last to years ... the abandoned LPC (OpenDNS), Netgear Armor (Bitdefender), or Circle - none of the newer attempts became systematically available ike LPC - and not at all on the laading edge products.

 


@intermelt wrote:

After reflecting a bit on what I said and the comments posted. I am leaning towards the idea that Netgear is just doing an expirement which they may be calling Market Research. The problem is they aren't trying to make the best product or revolutionize the (wireless) router industry with cutting edge (maybe future proof) hardware.


True. To much marketing, to keep the market running and the mouths feed. 

I'm tired of reading marketing lies like AC2600 ("...The XR500 has 4 ports each at 1 gigabit speed. It moves 2.6 Gb/per second wirelessly with a fantastic range. ...") , AD7200 ("...he XR700 has 8 ports, with the capability to go up to 10 Gb with an adapter on one port, allowing you to connect at incredible speeds wired. It also throws an insane 7.2 Gb/per second wirelessly. ...", AX6000, AX11000 and then the customers whining in the community about the fact that they never see these performance numbers - a sinlge insane marketing lie. And no, I don't blame @Redtulips7  to be one of these customers being blinded.

These days, I could no longer bite on my thung - look here over in the Nightawk Pro Gaming community section ->  https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-Pro-Gaming-Routers/Wired-vs-Wireless-The-answer-may-surpr...

 

 

Message 6 of 11

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed

I received my RAX120 on Tuesday 03/26/2019 from the Premier Membership Beta program.

This replaced an R7800 that worked very well with an Intel 9260 and Killer N1550 with the HT160 option enabled and using 5ghz channels between 36 and 48.Data Rate was mostly between 1300 Mbps and 1733.3 Mbps.

The 1st thing I noticed was the absence of an HT160 setting.If I chose the option for the Smart Connect my 5ghz SSID would disappear.

Now my settings are:

Enable AX = off

Security = WPA2(AES)

2.4ghz Channel = auto

Up to 481Mbps

5ghz Channel = 36

Up to 4333Mbps

 

With these settings all the phones,W10 x64 tablets,chromebook,W10 x64 notebook and W10 x64 desktop,Smart TV,Chromecast,Roku.Hue Hub,Wemo smart plugs are able to connect on both bands and stay connected.

The max data rate I can get with the RAX120 and client Intel 9260ac 6 feet from the router and in line of sight is 866.7Mbps;that's half of what the 3 year old R7800 got.This mostly matters transfering file across devices connected to the home network includinf router attached storage.

I'm hoping an Intel AX200 or Killer 1650 becomes available before my trial period is up.

I'm leaning toward a return of the RAX120 at the end of the trial.

I've already spoken 3 times to the PMB service people.They are in the Philippenes.

 

 

 

 

Model: RAX120| AX6000 - Nighthawk AX12 12-Stream Wi-Fi 6 Router
Message 7 of 11
schumaku
Guru

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed


@whatsthepoint wrote:

This replaced an R7800 that worked very well with an Intel 9260 and Killer N1550 with the HT160 option enabled and using 5ghz channels between 36 and 48.Data Rate was mostly between 1300 Mbps and 1733.3 Mbps.

The 1st thing I noticed was the absence of an HT160 setting.


These are capabilities the system integrators (Netgear here) can't do much - they depend fully on what the chipmakers provide.

 


@whatsthepoint wrote:

The max data rate I can get with the RAX120 and client Intel 9260ac 6 feet from the router and in line of sight is 866.7Mbps;that's half of what the 3 year old R7800 got.


Not so long ago, the 9260 on 2x2 was not able to connect on faster data rates - because HT160 was only implemented for 3x3 - on many popular chipsets.

 


@whatsthepoint wrote:

I've already spoken 3 times to the PMB service people.


They might be able to take notes - but I doubt they can do or change anything. These are typical problems with the compatibility or performance on many pre-standard wireless systems in the past generations.

 

Better open a dedicated thread - the firmware and specifications complained here are "Netgear made" - while these compatibility issues must be fixed and enhanced on a different layer.

Message 8 of 11
Redtulips7
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed

This AX12 Router is slow comparing to other AC Router in term of range and badwidth regardless what NG are saying!!!

Nighthawk AX12[RAX120]
Nighthawk X10[R9000]
Model: RAX120| AX6000 - Nighthawk AX12 12-Stream Wi-Fi 6 Router
Message 9 of 11
avtella
Prodigy

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed

The chipset supports HT160 from what ive read of it and seen FCC docs of other units with the same WiFi chipset. Reminds me of the R7800 and R9000, same WiFi chipset but the R7800 had HT160 working out of box while the R9000 didn't, you had to use a hacky way on it early on.

Message 10 of 11
Redtulips7
Apprentice

Re: Nighthawk AX12 rudimentary firmware with no increased speed


@avtella wrote:

The chipset supports HT160 from what ive read of it and seen FCC docs of other units with the same WiFi chipset. Reminds me of the R7800 and R9000, same WiFi chipset but the R7800 had HT160 working out of box while the R9000 didn't, you had to use a hacky way on it early on.


YES

Nighthawk AX12[RAX120]
Nighthawk X10[R9000]
Model: RAX120| AX6000 - Nighthawk AX12 12-Stream Wi-Fi 6 Router
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