Reply

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Feed back: NG feels that they found some Kernel panics happening that can cause more CPU usage and thus also increase the internal heat with in that seems to be causing the random reboots. Especially under stress or load. So this gives those who turned on the thermal fan or added additional cooling and stopped the reboots from happening the work around solution for this which has already been posted about.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-Routers-with-WiFi-6-AX/RAX120-V2-Constant-Random-Reboots/...

 

The beta that's being offered is supposed to help with these Kernel panics and should stop the random reboots. 

 

 

Regardless of FW, I recommend that any user place a laptop cooler under any router they have. Helps keep the router cooler 24/7 and helps with electronics longevity. 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 201 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Hello all

 

just wanted to let you know the results of my successful investugation into this topic.

 

Firstly, a disclaimer - I live in UK and the solution I am providing won't work for the USA directly, however it should help you to direct any action you would want to take with Netgear. The reason I decided to post is that I firmly believe that I have identified the root cause of the fault.I have the UK version of the router several times throughout the upgardes of the firmware and found that the UK model RAX120-100EUS has had its speed and connectivity issues through various versions of firmware but did not randomly reboot (I kept returning the routers due to instability.)

 

When the version 2 of the RAX120 hardware was announced, I decided to finally buy this model due to promised upgrades to the chipset including UL OFDMA. Plus the user reports on firmware instability have dramatically reduced. However, that version hardware never has made it to the UK market (version 1 is still on sale here). I therefore bought RAX120 v2 in the USA and imported it. As soon as it arrived, I installed and started using it. Fortunately, the power adapter it came with was compatible with UK 240V AC 60Hz electricity supply.

The model number on the box is RAX120-100NAS. Prior to using the router I have updated it to the latest production firmware V1.2.3.28 and made a factory reset.

 

The router rebooted while in use without any warning during the first 48 hours. And then continued to reboot randomly as per many threads and posts in this forum.

 

It came with this power adapter:

USA adapter, as supplied in the boxUSA adapter, as supplied in the box

Message 202 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

I noticed that the UK version of RAX 120 was supplied with a different adapter model, though an equivalent one to the one I got from the USA  does exist for the UK market.

This is the UK power brick

NETGEAR ADS-65MIA-19 for RAX120 2.pngNETGEAR ADS-65MIA-19 for RAX120.jpg

Message 203 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

As you can see it is quite substantial in size. I started wondering why has Netgear chosen to change the adapter model though they have a perfect equivalent to the one in the USA?

Here it is:

NETGEAR-800x800 AD2003D00-UK.jpg

 

Message 204 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

Please note, all three adapters have the same output voltage, current and power (19V, 3.16A, 60W). I concluded, that the European arm of Netgear was aware of the potential instability of the RAX120 router with the adapter model AD2003200 and replaced that model with a different one for a reason.

 

So, with great difficulty (Netgear doesn't sell their power adapters directly) I sourced the correct UK/ EU supplied power adapter (model ADS-65MIA-19), powered the RAX120 V2 router with it and hey presto - it has been stable for exactly one week without a reboot.

 

The router is stable, does not restart, does not drop connections, the cooling fan comes on and switches off regularly - as it should.

 

Therefore,  the root cause of the random reboots problem is not in the firmware, not in the poor cooling, but in the inadequate features of the AD2073F20 power adapter the RAX120 v2 model is supplied to the US customer base.

 

Ironically, Netgear themselves state in their help pages on their website that incorrect power adpater may cause their routers to 'misteriously reboot'. Information about power adapters on Netgear products.

However, up until now thet have not found the source of the random reboots problem with the RAX120 v2. 🤣

Solution: RAX120 v2 owners in the US nag Netgear for a replacement power adapter

 

 

 

 

 

Message 205 of 358
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

I suppose this could be one possible solution. Though if all your adapters you've tried supplied same voltage and amps. I would have checked the voltage and amps with a test meter across all three adapters to check for any differences. Could have been a faulty or out of spec adapter. I believe the 120 I have came with the non AD2003 adapter. I'll have to check on this. 

 

Though other have found that there maybe a cooling issue that the units are not cooling properly and thus users have found that either enabling the thermal fan on the router or adding extra cooling, i.e. laptop cooler under the router has stopped these random reboots and not a power adapter replacement. Also there is a beta FW available for RAX120v2 users as well that is supposed to help resolve these random reboots as well. 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 206 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

The same Netgear help article that I linked says that router could be also overheating due to the incorrect power adapter being used. So knowledge is there it just not applied properly. My findings point out that the random reboots will not be sorted by firmware.

 

Message 207 of 358
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

Though the KB article doesn't specify a heat issue due to incorrect power adapter being used. I presume the KB article summarized that the use of incorrect power adapters, other than what came INBOX, could cause damage or incorrect operation of the router. 

 

Though still all 3 adapters you tested would need to be checked by a power meter or oscilloscope to see if there are any differences between them that may cause something to happen. 

 

Here is my RAX120 PS:

IMG_1206.jpg

 

 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 208 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

Yes indeed, the adapter included in the box is the one you showed AD7023F20 (I used stock picture in my first post and could not replace it later).

This power adapter - AD7023F20- is the one that's causing the random reboots, as it clearly doesn't meet the requirements of this particular router.

Are you going to relay this information to Netgear to

1) stop their work on the firmware for the reboot issue, which clearly is not going to help it

2) make them replace the power adapters for all their USA RAX120 V2 customers, who lodged numerous complains  about the issue with no resolution?

I assume you have some connection to Netgear in the USA, considering the frequency and nature of your posts in this forum?

 

NETGEAR-ADAPTER.jpeg

Message 209 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

Here is my RAX120 V2 log that shows that the router did not restart since last Saturday when powered with UK / EU / Asia adapter Model ADS-65MIA-19 with the current firmware installed.

Netgear log.jpg

Message 210 of 358
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

Well this is the adapter that is working for my RAX120 though. Have Not seen any reboots here. 

Only items I have seen is the internal temp does get hot and adding the thermal fan and cooling helps here. 

 

Can you take a meter reading of the volts and amps with all the power adapters you have? Especially the amp at the tip of these power adapters...

 

IF your not in the USA, then we presume the UK versions of the power adapters should work. USA adapters are not ment for use outside of the USA and would probably present this problem if used in other countries. 

 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 211 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

@FURRYe38if you 'have not seen any reboots' you must be an outlier, as the community forums are full of user complaints about router randomly rebooting, replacing it with another unit does not change that behaviour and none of the fixes you mention work. These are all signs of the hardware having an issue in a typical user environment. We do not know anything about your environment, do we?. Have you had your mains treated in some way? Are you running it from a power conditioner or UPS? All this may or may not matter.

 

What I know is that changing the power adapter stops this router rebooting problem and therefore it is that part of the hardware that makes a difference. Instead of trying to diffuse the situation and blame everything but the power adapter, why would you not pass my information to Netgear and get their official reply? They could at least do some of the measurements you suggested or other to understand what triggers the reboots of RAX120 V2 with the AD7023F20 adapter model.

Message 212 of 358
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

Can you take a meter reading of the volts and amps with all the power adapters you have? Especially the amp at the tip of these power adapters...

 

The community has also taken in that there is a heat issue as well and others HAVE posted that turning ON the thermal Fan or adding extra cooling HAS resolved this. Mains are not treated nor do I run my router off a UPS. I'm also in the US region as well. I also have two other routers with same model and voltage and amps adapters, R7960P and R8000 and have never seen this problem on these as well. I've had the R7960P for a long time as well. All 3 adapters show same volt and amps on the output. 

 

Anything would be possible as we would not know of what goes on out side of the US region in regards to power. It's presumptive to assume that what doesn't work out side the US region would be the same with in it with out deeper review of all the adapters taking into consideration the differences between US and non US regional power configurations. 

 

I'll pass this along and see if we get any feedback.

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 213 of 358
Topology
Luminary

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

@_NDS_ , your research into the RAX120 reboot problem is intriguing. Two comments to consider….

 

(1) “This power adapter - AD7023F20 - is the one that's causing the random reboots”

I used a RAX120 (V1) with the supplied AD2073F20 power adapter for over two years and never experienced the reboot problem. If the AD2073F20 power adapter is the root cause of the problem, then it should be producing reboots even with version 1 of the RAX120?

 

(2) “my RAX120 V2 log that shows that the router did not restart since last Saturday when powered with UK / EU / Asia adapter Model ADS-65MIA-19”

Based on other forum posts, it appears that the RAX120 exhibits the reboot problem when under heavy load. Thus, elapsed uptime by itself may not be a good indication of stability?

Message 214 of 358
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

@Topology Do you have access to a power meter device by chance? Would be good to know what volts and amps your seeing at the tip of your power brick. 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 215 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

@TopologyThank you for your comments! We do not know for sure if the reboot issue is only a problem for the RAX120V2 hardware, but it looks that way. The RAX120 V2 came out quite early on in the USA in late 2020. It is not sold outside the USA currently.

 

What is really intriguing is that I have not come across the random reboot complaints anywhere outside the USA - just network connectivity and speed issues with older firmwares. There are clearly two variables here - the power adapter, as per my original post, and the router hardware (V2 vs V1). It could be that V2 with its updated chipset has more challenging requirements for the power adapter. Some testing will be required to solve this and my expectation is that Netgear will do it. Here is hope.

 

As far as the load on the router during the week I showed it was stable - it was just typical family use. Some streaming, some online gaming, some P2P. What supports my theory is that previously with this type of usage the router would not stay on for longer than 48 hours. I did not find that reboots were directly linked with the load on the router. They were random, both in frequencey and in the router load, as reported by others.

Message 216 of 358
Topology
Luminary

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

@FURRYe38, I no longer have the RAX120 (V1) and thus am unable to measure the output of the AD2073F20 power adapter, unfortunately.

Message 217 of 358
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

No worries. Thanks. 


@Topology wrote:

I no longer have the RAX120 (V1) and thus am unable to measure the output of the AD2073F20 power adapter, unfortunately.


 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 218 of 358
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Feed back: NG feels that this is not a power adapter issue. They found some Kernel panics happening that can cause more CPU usage and thus also increase the internal heat with in that seems to be causing the random reboots. Especially under stress or load. So this gives those who turned on the thermal fan or added additional cooling and stopped the reboots from happening the work around solution for this which has already been posted about.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-Routers-with-WiFi-6-AX/RAX120-V2-Constant-Random-Reboots/...

 

The beta that's being offered is supposed to help with these Kernel panics and should stop the random reboots. 

The RAX120 is sold outside of the US region. 

 

I recommend that any user place a laptop cooler under any router they have. Helps keep the router cooler 24/7 and helps with electronics longevity. 

 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 219 of 358
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

@FURRYe38 wrote:

The RAX120 is sold outside of the US region. 


Thank you for contacting NG. Where else is the RAX120 V2 is sold and with what power adapter, please? What version is your RAX120 V2 or V1?

 

Could it be that 'kernel panics' NG has identified draw more power from the adapter and causing the USA version AD7023F20 to fail and trip the reboot? Very often electronics behave differently under peak loads, that's why I feel it would be useless for an end user to measure voltage and current at the power adapter output. I fully expect it to be nominal for both adapter models.

 

My router just switches on its cooling fan from time to time when it feels right, but doesn't feel hot and doesn't reboot.

Message 220 of 358
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Only UK was mentioned. 

 

The kernel panics are causing the CPU to unnecessarily be over worked, this is causing more CPU usage thus more heat is generated. And under normal or abnormal stress in operation would raise the heat and temp to maybe exceed limits. Probably causing some other internal comments to heat up and maybe for unknown reason, the internal fan doesn't trigger. I was told at 60C(140F) is a internal trigger temp for the internal fan. Weather this is triggering the fan or not is unknown. Others have mentioned there routers were hotter than normal but no fan was ON. Thus users started enabling it or adding additional cooling. Also since there hasn't been a flood of users still posting that there having this problem, seems like the beta FW being offered has resolved this issue for users. Along with also adding additional cooling for general purpose doesn't seem to hurt as well. So I presume we can rule out this being a power brick issue. 

 

 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 221 of 358
Müser17
Initiate

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

How do we get a copy of the beta firmware?
Message 222 of 358
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Send @DarrenM a PM. 

Also recommend turning on the Thermal Fan on the routers debug page as well or installing a laptop cooler for additional cooling. 

 


@Müser17 wrote:
How do we get a copy of the beta firmware?

 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CAX80 Modem Mode |  Wifi Router RBK953 (Router Mode) 2.5Gb Wired Backhaul | Switches NG GS105/8, GS308v3, GS110MX and XS505M | XR1000 (Router Mode) and RBK853 AP Mode  | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: MK63, R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700

Message 223 of 358
Killhippie
Prodigy

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

I beta tested the original unit in 2018 (release was 2019) My RAX120 has never rebooted but it has the UK variant power supply, same as the beta unit. The v2 has no new features and was not available in the UK, its sku was RAX120NAS (north American) the UK only ever sold V1 units RAX120EUS, Amazon for a while sold v2 units but as I said they have no different features from the v1 even though the v2 chip is compliant with both UP and DL OFDMA it still only does UL only. It would be good to have a new firmware after 10 months, that's a big gap and there must be security issues not patched in the 120's buy now, that I find a concern. Also it does make the router feel somewhat abandoned.

Message 224 of 358
Topology
Luminary

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

This article may be relevant to the dialog: Understanding and Measuring Power-Supply Transient Recovery Time

 

In the spirt of brainstorming, perhaps the ADS-65MIA-19 (UK) and AD2073F20 (US) power adapters have different load-transient recovery times – namely, the former (with a larger size) is able to provide a steadier voltage as changes in load current occur as a consequence of varying demands placed on the router?

 

Could transient voltage variation, perhaps more of an issue with the AD2073F20 (US) power adapter, be one factor (among potentially others) producing kernel panics that cause high CPU utilization, increased internal temperature, and ultimately a reboot of the RAX120v2?

Message 225 of 358
Top Contributors
Discussion stats
Announcements

Orbi WiFi 6E