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Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

Can you take a meter reading of the volts and amps with all the power adapters you have? Especially the amp at the tip of these power adapters...

 

The community has also taken in that there is a heat issue as well and others HAVE posted that turning ON the thermal Fan or adding extra cooling HAS resolved this. Mains are not treated nor do I run my router off a UPS. I'm also in the US region as well. I also have two other routers with same model and voltage and amps adapters, R7960P and R8000 and have never seen this problem on these as well. I've had the R7960P for a long time as well. All 3 adapters show same volt and amps on the output. 

 

Anything would be possible as we would not know of what goes on out side of the US region in regards to power. It's presumptive to assume that what doesn't work out side the US region would be the same with in it with out deeper review of all the adapters taking into consideration the differences between US and non US regional power configurations. 

 

I'll pass this along and see if we get any feedback.

Message 226 of 707
Topology
Virtuoso

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

@_NDS_ , your research into the RAX120 reboot problem is intriguing. Two comments to consider….

 

(1) “This power adapter - AD7023F20 - is the one that's causing the random reboots”

I used a RAX120 (V1) with the supplied AD2073F20 power adapter for over two years and never experienced the reboot problem. If the AD2073F20 power adapter is the root cause of the problem, then it should be producing reboots even with version 1 of the RAX120?

 

(2) “my RAX120 V2 log that shows that the router did not restart since last Saturday when powered with UK / EU / Asia adapter Model ADS-65MIA-19”

Based on other forum posts, it appears that the RAX120 exhibits the reboot problem when under heavy load. Thus, elapsed uptime by itself may not be a good indication of stability?

Message 227 of 707
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

@Topology Do you have access to a power meter device by chance? Would be good to know what volts and amps your seeing at the tip of your power brick. 

Message 228 of 707
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

@TopologyThank you for your comments! We do not know for sure if the reboot issue is only a problem for the RAX120V2 hardware, but it looks that way. The RAX120 V2 came out quite early on in the USA in late 2020. It is not sold outside the USA currently.

 

What is really intriguing is that I have not come across the random reboot complaints anywhere outside the USA - just network connectivity and speed issues with older firmwares. There are clearly two variables here - the power adapter, as per my original post, and the router hardware (V2 vs V1). It could be that V2 with its updated chipset has more challenging requirements for the power adapter. Some testing will be required to solve this and my expectation is that Netgear will do it. Here is hope.

 

As far as the load on the router during the week I showed it was stable - it was just typical family use. Some streaming, some online gaming, some P2P. What supports my theory is that previously with this type of usage the router would not stay on for longer than 48 hours. I did not find that reboots were directly linked with the load on the router. They were random, both in frequencey and in the router load, as reported by others.

Message 229 of 707
Topology
Virtuoso

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

@FURRYe38, I no longer have the RAX120 (V1) and thus am unable to measure the output of the AD2073F20 power adapter, unfortunately.

Message 230 of 707
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots - actual fault and solution

No worries. Thanks. 


@Topology wrote:

I no longer have the RAX120 (V1) and thus am unable to measure the output of the AD2073F20 power adapter, unfortunately.


 

Message 231 of 707
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Feed back: NG feels that this is not a power adapter issue. They found some Kernel panics happening that can cause more CPU usage and thus also increase the internal heat with in that seems to be causing the random reboots. Especially under stress or load. So this gives those who turned on the thermal fan or added additional cooling and stopped the reboots from happening the work around solution for this which has already been posted about.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-Routers-with-WiFi-6-AX/RAX120-V2-Constant-Random-Reboots/...

 

The beta that's being offered is supposed to help with these Kernel panics and should stop the random reboots. 

The RAX120 is sold outside of the US region. 

 

I recommend that any user place a laptop cooler under any router they have. Helps keep the router cooler 24/7 and helps with electronics longevity. 

 

Message 232 of 707
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

@FURRYe38 wrote:

The RAX120 is sold outside of the US region. 


Thank you for contacting NG. Where else is the RAX120 V2 is sold and with what power adapter, please? What version is your RAX120 V2 or V1?

 

Could it be that 'kernel panics' NG has identified draw more power from the adapter and causing the USA version AD7023F20 to fail and trip the reboot? Very often electronics behave differently under peak loads, that's why I feel it would be useless for an end user to measure voltage and current at the power adapter output. I fully expect it to be nominal for both adapter models.

 

My router just switches on its cooling fan from time to time when it feels right, but doesn't feel hot and doesn't reboot.

Message 233 of 707
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Only UK was mentioned. 

 

The kernel panics are causing the CPU to unnecessarily be over worked, this is causing more CPU usage thus more heat is generated. And under normal or abnormal stress in operation would raise the heat and temp to maybe exceed limits. Probably causing some other internal comments to heat up and maybe for unknown reason, the internal fan doesn't trigger. I was told at 60C(140F) is a internal trigger temp for the internal fan. Weather this is triggering the fan or not is unknown. Others have mentioned there routers were hotter than normal but no fan was ON. Thus users started enabling it or adding additional cooling. Also since there hasn't been a flood of users still posting that there having this problem, seems like the beta FW being offered has resolved this issue for users. Along with also adding additional cooling for general purpose doesn't seem to hurt as well. So I presume we can rule out this being a power brick issue. 

 

 

Message 234 of 707
Müser17
Initiate

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

How do we get a copy of the beta firmware?
Message 235 of 707
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Send @DarrenM a PM. 

Also recommend turning on the Thermal Fan on the routers debug page as well or installing a laptop cooler for additional cooling. 

 


@Müser17 wrote:
How do we get a copy of the beta firmware?

 

Message 236 of 707
Killhippie
Prodigy

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

I beta tested the original unit in 2018 (release was 2019) My RAX120 has never rebooted but it has the UK variant power supply, same as the beta unit. The v2 has no new features and was not available in the UK, its sku was RAX120NAS (north American) the UK only ever sold V1 units RAX120EUS, Amazon for a while sold v2 units but as I said they have no different features from the v1 even though the v2 chip is compliant with both UP and DL OFDMA it still only does UL only. It would be good to have a new firmware after 10 months, that's a big gap and there must be security issues not patched in the 120's buy now, that I find a concern. Also it does make the router feel somewhat abandoned.

Message 237 of 707
Topology
Virtuoso

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

This article may be relevant to the dialog: Understanding and Measuring Power-Supply Transient Recovery Time

 

In the spirt of brainstorming, perhaps the ADS-65MIA-19 (UK) and AD2073F20 (US) power adapters have different load-transient recovery times – namely, the former (with a larger size) is able to provide a steadier voltage as changes in load current occur as a consequence of varying demands placed on the router?

 

Could transient voltage variation, perhaps more of an issue with the AD2073F20 (US) power adapter, be one factor (among potentially others) producing kernel panics that cause high CPU utilization, increased internal temperature, and ultimately a reboot of the RAX120v2?

Message 238 of 707
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots


@FURRYe38 wrote:

Only UK was mentioned. 

 

The kernel panics are causing the CPU to unneccessarily be over worked, this is causing more CPU usage thus more heat is generated. And under normal or abnormal stress in operation would raise the heat and temp to maybe exceed limits. Probably causing some other internal compents to heat up and maybe for unknown reason, the internal fan doesn't trigger. I was told at 60C(140F) is a internal trigger temp for the internal fan. Weather this is triggering the fan or not is unknown. Others have mentioned there routers were hotter than normal but no fan was ON. Thus users started enabling it or adding additional cooling. 

 

 


Hello, @FURRYe38  - we still have not got an answer from you which RAX120 you have in your possession, which is allegedly not rebooting. Is it definitely V2? Are you able to post a router log equivalent to mine showing any significant length of the uptime?

 

I just want to draw your attention to the following message posted at the end of June 2022:

@DannyLin wrote:
Guys, I have helped test and collect debug logs to NG for about a month.
Trust me. I don't think it's related to the heating issue.
There's no way to reproduce the reboot issue. Sometimes, it reboots within 2 days, sometimes every 1 or 2 weeks. Unless it has not been rebooted for more than 3 months, I wouldn't say it is resolved.

I have tried the latest firmware for debugging provided by NG, but it still reboots.
BTW, I have no additional fans installed on the top or bottom of the router. When the reboot happened earlier this month, the router was not hot. I wouldn't even say it is “warm”. But it still rebooted.
Honestly, I think it’s so silly to ask customers, especially paid a premium price longing for a matched performance, to help debug.
It’s hard to find the real reason until NG recalls all defective routers and replaces them with a newer model without issue.

 

I note that you have responded to this message and dismissed it quoting NG theory of 'kernel panics' then, as you are attempting to dismiss my finding that power adapter replacement cures the reboot issue. Why would not you facilitate some actual testing of the RAX120 V2 router behaviour  with these two power adapters by NG? I am sure they are better equipped to do this then us, the end users.

 

I feel that resolving this issue for good - while painful - will save them a lot of cash and customers in the long run.

Message 239 of 707
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots


@Topology wrote:

This article may be relevant to the dialog: Understanding and Measuring Power-Supply Transient Recovery Time

 

In the spirt of brainstorming, perhaps the ADS-65MIA-19 (UK) and AD2073F20 (US) power adapters have different load-transient recovery times – namely, the former (with a larger size) is able to provide a steadier voltage as changes in load current occur as a consequence of varying demands placed on the router?

 

Could transient voltage variation, perhaps more of an issue with the AD2073F20 (US) power adapter, be one factor (among potentially others) producing kernel panics that cause high CPU utilization, increased internal temperature, and ultimately a reboot of the RAX120v2?


Thank you again for your post. I am not an electronics engineer, but this theory matches my findings and also my gut feel 😃.

 

I am a firm believer that NG USA should investigate the root cause and start with the reason why a different model - bigger and bulkier - power adapter was chosen for the markets outside USA for RAX120. Who in Netgear made this decision and on what basis? What are the known technical differences between ADS-65MIA-19 (UK) and AD2073F20 (US) or its visual equivalent AD2003200 (UK) supplied originally here in the UK with Netgear R8000-100UKS routers. All these three adapters are compatible with UK voltage, have the same connector at the router end and deliver equivalent nominal output of 19V and 3.16A.

Message 240 of 707
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots


@Killhippie wrote:

I beta tested the original unit in 2018 (release was 2019) My RAX120 has never rebooted but it has the UK variant power supply, same as the beta unit. The v2 has no new features and was not available in the UK, its sku was RAX120NAS (north American) the UK only ever sold V1 units RAX120EUS, Amazon for a while sold v2 units but as I said they have no different features from the v1 even though the v2 chip is compliant with both UP and DL OFDMA it still only does UL only. It would be good to have a new firmware after 10 months, that's a big gap and there must be security issues not patched in the 120's buy now, that I find a concern. Also it does make the router feel somewhat abandoned.


Thank you for your response. I recognise your name from the SmallNetBuilders forum where you sang praise to RAX120 back in 2020.

I actually bought the V1 router from Amazon UK then -  just to find out that the firmware at the time was littered with problems related to variable connection speeds. The behavour, that you argued with several forum users, was not observed by yourself. Nevertheless, I purchased and returned the RAX120 V1 then just to experience first hand that the forum users were right and you were not.

 

While the comment you left in this thread is kind of benign I find it OTT, as you are not talking about the V2 random reboots experience. More over, I found your other post in early 2021 on this very topic of random reboots, when your received the following reply:

 


@mudbone wrote

I read your recent comment and it took me a little time to figure out how I was going to respond so here it is. First off you sort of gave yourself away with the comment "cant really commit due to the NDA I signed" which tells me your opinion is biased at best. Secondly I think your posts are kind of insulting. You can clearly see by reading the posts in this blog and many others that a lot of Netgear customers are having serious problems with the Netgear AX series routers. So please stop acting like its just something I am doing wrong because its clearly not just me.

 


I think this guy hit the nail on the head - if you signed an NDA with Netgear, please do not post OTT comments to distract the discussion in the thread. I maintain that the current version firmware, while possibly not perfect, is not the root cause of the random reboots. It is the US supplied power adapter that is. Do you have anything to add to this statement backed by my evidence?

 

 

Message 241 of 707
Killhippie
Prodigy

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Right, all beta testers sign a NDA at the time, it does not mean we are biased, it meant we were not allowed to discuss the hardware at that time. That simple. As to your issue I never have had that problem and neither did many others, but I always factory reset after updates and that helps I cant remember you but many people never factory reset and you really need to do that, also your surroundings and other environmental conditions can cause different problems from any I may have had, which have been few and far between although the logging has still got issues.

 As I said the v2 does not have new features over the v1 unit, that simple and if it is a power issue then people who got units from North America should be helped by netgear if possible or if they have any warranty left of course after all this time. Or possibly should have bought units with the SKU RAX120EUS (Europe) not RAX120NAS (North America) unless you lived in the USA of course.

 Now I hope that's answered your question as firmware wont fix a power issue with a router not that was for NA not Europe, anyway this router is 3 years old now and probably approaching EOL, since I have not had reboots I was hoping firmware could be released to cover any security issues tht was all.

 So in short a NDA is a thing all hardware and software beta testers have to sign no matter what company and Netgear do not like you breaking that in any way, its not biased its simply because you are testing hardware the public does not know about and we signed a document saying you would not discuss it which is legally binding. The same goes with firmware under some circumstances, so factory reset your router if you have a V1 or 2 and try a UK power supply, if you were one of those people that said they didn't want to reset then that's your problem not mine. Merlin who does Asus forks recommends factory resets too sometimes, and he writes firmware so he knows what he is talking about. Have a nice day.

Message 242 of 707
Topology
Virtuoso

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

In response to a RAX120 rebooting issue, one individual posted the following comment on Reddit:
The Power Brick is the issue , replace it with this
PN: 332-10631-01 Model: AD2003F10, Output: 19V 3.16A
Input: 100~120V 50/60Hz

If there is an adventurous RAX120v2 owner on this forum who is experiencing the reboot problem, it may be worthwhile to consider purchasing and testing the AD2003F10 power adapter as an inexpensive experiment (while recognizing and accepting any potential risk).

However, as FURRYe38 noted in a very helpful prior post, “NG feels that this is not a power adapter issue” – and, based on NETGEAR’s expertise, the likelihood of success of that experiment therefore may not be high.  Consider that if the power adapter were the single root cause of the reboot problem, then the issue should be ubiquitous.  Alternatively, the power adapter could be a contributing factor.  I remain curious….

 

Message 243 of 707
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

Just to keep everyone updated and some pressure on NG and their advocate @FURRYe38. The router still has not rebooted once since I changed the power adapter to ADS-65MIA-19, but was rebootinig randomly and frequently with the stock unit.RAX120V2 not rebooting #2.jpg

Message 244 of 707
Topology
Virtuoso

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

@_NDS_  , thank you for your continued investigation of the RAX120v2 reboot issue.

 

To clarify, when you use the AD2073F20 (US) power adapter with your RAX120v2 in the UK and experience the reboot issue, how are you converting the Type A plug on the US power adapter to fit into the Type G electrical outlet in the UK? And, are you supplying the US power adapter with 230V/50Hz or 120V/60Hz?

Message 245 of 707
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

@Topology 

According to what is written on the AD2073F20 (US) adapter it is compatible with the UK voltage.

 

It is rated at 100-240V AC and 50/60z. We have 230V +/- 6% @ 50Hz in the UK.

 

Hence I plugged it in straight into the mains socket using one of the these converters, rated at 5A:

adapter.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And, by the way. the RAX120 V2 still has not tripped into a reboot even once. It is solid as a rock. 🙂

Message 246 of 707
_NDS_
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

@Topology 

Here is my current log. As you can see it has now overfilled and runs from Aug 1st. However, the previous one I posted overlaps with this one - it covered the period between July 23rd to Aug 5th. Hence the router has been stable from the new adapter installation date of July 23rd up until today. This is three weeks.

Thankfully, there were no power cuts, so I am convinced that the random reboots problem is solved for good.

Log 14 Aug.jpg

 

Message 247 of 707
Killhippie
Prodigy

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

This looks like good news for V2 users, I'm just wondering if Netgear are ever going to release an update now. Last one was November 2021 we are now in August November 2022, I'm sure there must be security issues with this router possible but Netgear seem to have washed their hands of it in favour of newer models, I would like at least a firmware release is in say two weeks  (or what ever date) from engineering or is this now almost EOL in which case its time to buy a new router, and the RAXE500 at £550 is just to rich for my blood sadly. The RAX200 and other AX routers are all dropping in sales price rapidly which makes me uncertain what to buy next that will have a long lifespan, as these devices are getting old, I mean the RAX80 was replaced with the RAX70,  so what do we do, wait for a new line of 6E routers or spend cash and possibly make a costly mistake on older models?

Message 248 of 707
muniz_ri
Apprentice

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

I found a site from Singapore and ordered the ADS-65MIA-19 power adapter. Fingers crossed!

Message 249 of 707
Topology
Virtuoso

Re: RAX120 V2 Constant Random Reboots

@_NDS_ , thank you for clarifying that you were experiencing the RAX120v2 reboot issue when using the AD2073F20 (US) power adapter in the UK with 230V/50Hz. Although that power adapter claims to be compatible with 230V/50Hz, perhaps its output is in fact outside of the tolerances of the RAX120v2 with a 230V/50Hz input?

 

Nonetheless, your observations may cause others on the forum who are experiencing the RAX120v2 reboot issue to consider testing alternative power adapters….

 

P.S.: It is very encouraging that your RAX120v2 is stable when using the ADS-65MIA-19 (UK) power adapter.

Message 250 of 707
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