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FTTH & GPON

WishIknew
Aspirant

FTTH & GPON

This area in Central Oregon now has FTTH and the ONT on my house is by Calix. There is a 722GE inside the ONT. I'm subscribed to just 100mbps and don't need speed. No TV, no phone. CAT5 brings internet into the house. The ISP supplied gateway (?) is an Actiontec T3200M. This works, of course, but I don't need the monthly fee for renting the Actiontec. 

 

So the issue is the ISP can't (or will not) get the R7000P  connected to their network. Talking to Netgear tech support, the MAC address of the Actiontec was substituted (spoofed) into the configuration of the R7000P and connects to the ISP's network. Works great, good speed, etc. The ISP never noticed for weeks until I called and wanted to use my router/MAC address. 

 

Hate to point fingers, but what could I be missing. At my level the only difference is the MAC address. Is GPON that fussy? I'm all ears.

Model: R7000P|Nighthawk AC2300 Smart WiFi Dual Band Gigabit Router
Message 1 of 12
schumaku
Guru

Re: FTTH & GPON

The ISP router might have troubleshooting information available for the ISP (by TR-069 and CPE WAN Management Protocol (CWMP), SNMP, by any kind of CLI accessfor example). This is not a GPON thing.


Be happy there is an ONT and not just the naked fiber with GPON or XGS-PON - there you can't connect a generic router, even with SFP resp. SFP+ and a matching fiber module. 

Message 2 of 12
WishIknew
Aspirant

Re: FTTH & GPON

Well..............you lost me, sorry. This is above my level. I'll look at your suggestions (check Google). The information pertaining to the 722GE and Actiontec is scarce. Seems the ISP equipment provided, is sold only to an ISP and not to individuals. 

 

Without the option to purchase and little or no documentation, we the customers have a tough nut to crack. 

Message 3 of 12
schumaku
Guru

Re: FTTH & GPON


@WishIknew wrote:

The information pertaining to the 722GE and Actiontec is scarce. Seems the ISP equipment provided, is sold only to an ISP and not to individuals. 


That's correct - and there is nothing you need or can do. The Netgear routers can be run, and the ISP does not enforce you to use it's own equipment. It just makes a little disadvantage for the ISP support. The typical hand-over point between the ISP and the owner equipment is the Ethernet port, at least on cable modem or ONTs.

 

Even if you could buy ISP equipment in the free market, it won't be customized to the ISP requirements and defaults. TR-069 (ff.) requires for example a signed certificate owned by the ISP. 

 

This can be different in markets where telephony and TV is coming in over the single fiber. Replacing the ISP CPE will lead to a loss of the phone service, the IPTV part requires some tech know-how, while the pure Internet can be made workable relatively easy.

 

No nutcracking required. All the information provided is just background for the interested reader. Or have I missed any real problem caused by using the Netgear router?

Message 4 of 12
WishIknew
Aspirant

Re: FTTH & GPON

"Even if you could buy ISP equipment in the free market, it won't be customized to the ISP requirements and defaults. TR-069 (ff.) requires for example a signed certificate owned by the ISP." Ok, this I understand............but.

 

"Or have I missed any real problem caused by using the Netgear router?"............but.

 

Without the ISP knowing, spoofing the Actiontec's MAC address into my R7000P, my Netgear router has access to the internet and works. 

Upon letting the ISP know my R7000P is connected to the "hand over point", using its own MAC address it doesn't work. 

 

It could be when the ISP didn't know about the spoofing,  they were not asking for that TR-069? Or since I can't see what the ISP is doing, my Netgear router's MAC address is not given their blessings. Yes I understand using my router there is no support from the ISP. No TV or phone service from the ISP, but the information given is good to know. 

 

So the "real problem" is not being allowed to use my router and paying rental fees for the Actiontec. When I have a little more time, one more experiment for grins & giggles. 

Message 5 of 12
schumaku
Guru

Re: FTTH & GPON


@WishIknew wrote:

Without the ISP knowing, spoofing the Actiontec's MAC address into my R7000P, my Netgear router has access to the internet and works. 

Upon letting the ISP know my R7000P is connected to the "hand over point", using its own MAC address it doesn't work.


This is the reason this feature exits on Ethernet routers for decades - because few ISP "lock" the connection to either thier own or to the first MAC connected.

 


@WishIknew wrote:

It could be when the ISP didn't know about the spoofing, 


Of course they know ... 

 


@WishIknew wrote:

So the "real problem" is not being allowed to use my router and paying rental fees for the Actiontec. When I have a little more time, one more experiment for grins & giggles. 


Guess they want you to pay, then to pay, and then to pay again ... for no added value. Is there anything the like in the contract disallowing to use a different router?

 

Message 6 of 12
WishIknew
Aspirant

Re: FTTH & GPON

"Guess they want you to pay, then to pay, and then to pay again ... for no added value. Is there anything the like in the contract disallowing to use a different router?"

 

Giving away the ISP: Fiber-to-the-Premises. Certain types of our High Speed Internet services are delivered by FTTP. For those services we install a Media Converter or Optical Router at the customers premises. The Media Converter or Optical Router then connects via a cable to a customer provided device (e.g. Switch, Hub, etc.). If you have questions...............bla, bla, bla

I had to dig deep and search a while to find the above. Could be more elsewhere. 

 

What the ISP will not discuss is what will work on their network. In phone calls their employees will not mention or suggest any brand, model, etc. for fear of legal issues if that brand, model, etc. does not work. Catch 22.................

Message 7 of 12
WishIknew
Aspirant

Re: FTTH & GPON

I have a question for other R7000P owners or Netgear experts. The MAC address on the box is 3C:37:86:59:21:73.

 

Going into the router config: ADVANCED-HOME under Router Information the MAC address is 3C:37:86:59:21:73 and

under Internet Port the MAC address is 3C:37:86:59:21:74

 

At ADVANCED-INTERNET SETUP there are three options. Under Use Default Address we have 3C:37:86:59:21:74

and under Use This MAC address we have 3C:37:86:59:21:74. The other option is use another MAC address and there is where to spoof. 

 

In the past with other Netgear routers the MAC address on the box was the go to MAC address to use. I've never seen two different MAC addresses. No doubt 3C:37:86:59:21:73 does not work, or the ISP is blocking. Is something in the config amiss? I've pushed the RESET several times. 

 

Maybe time to purchase another router?

 

 

Message 8 of 12
antinode
Guru

Re: FTTH & GPON

> [...] I've never seen two different MAC addresses. [...]

 

   Every network interface has a MAC address.  A typical router has a
LAN interface and a WAN/Internet interface, each of which has its own
MAC address.  I'd expect an ISP to care about the MAC address of the
router's WAN/Internet interface (the one to which it connects).  If
you've been giving your ISP the MAC address of your router's _LAN_
interface, then that might explain the problem.

 

> In the past with other Netgear routers the MAC address on the box was
> the go to MAC address to use. [...]

 

   I can't account for what's on the box.  On the box of the one
D7000[v1] for which I have the box, the MAC address on the label on the
box is for the LAN interface.  So far as I know, no one cares about the
MAC address for a DSL modem+router, but the pattern might extend to
cable-TV gizmos, too.

 

   If you haven't yet completely alienated your ISP support people, then
you might try giving them the same MAC address that the router would be
giving them (for its WAN/Internet interface), and see how that works.


   In case you were thinking about trying it, I would expect trouble if
you tried to configure the MAC address of the router's WAN/Internet
interface to match the box/label, because that would put the same MAC
address on both its LAN and WAN/Internet interfaces.

Message 9 of 12
WishIknew
Aspirant

Re: FTTH & GPON

The MAC address on the box is the same as the one on the bottom of the R7000P router. Which begs the question as to how would all customers know to look into the config and give the ISP the correct MAC address. Which is the correct one? This older medicare crowd can't handle a smartphone let alone play with the config on a router.

 

Not being able to see the ISP side; can the ISP see the MAC address? They surely can see their own ONT.............and from there see the router? In my other Netgear routers I can see the MAC address of every device connected and those trying to connect! Thus Access Control. 

 

The ISP doesn't offer support for the customer's equipment, which I understand. But.....................................

 

Message 10 of 12
antinode
Guru

Re: FTTH & GPON

> [...] Which is the correct one? [...]

 

   My claim is that the only possible correct one is the one on the
interface that the ISP sees.  I've suggested one way to find out.

 

> [...] This older medicare crowd can't handle a smartphone let alone
> play with the config on a router.

 

   One might argue that anyone who can't cope with router configuration
might be better off sticking with the ISP-supplied router.

 

> [...] can the ISP see the MAC address? [...]

 

   Don't ask me.  I believe that they have no way to see the LAN side of
your router, so, if they want _any_ MAC address, then it'd need to be

the one on the interface closer to them.

 

> [...] They surely can see their own ONT.............and from there see
> the router? [...]


   Plausible.  The WAN/Internet side of "the router", that is.

 

> [...] In my other Netgear routers I can see the MAC address of every
> device connected and those trying to connect! Thus Access Control.

 

   Yup.  This one, too, I'd guess.  All on your LAN.  Not of any
interest on the other (ISP) side of the router.

 

> The ISP doesn't offer support for the customer's equipment, [...]

 

   If you can get them to accept a MAC address of your choice, then
that's all the support you should need from them.  If, of course, you
give them the right one.

 

   I don't have one handy, so I know nothing, but I'd guess that when
dealing with a cable modem(+router), which is the usual situation where
the MAC address is crucial, the easily visible MAC address is the right
one.

Message 11 of 12
schumaku
Guru

Re: FTTH & GPON


@WishIknew wrote:

The MAC address on the box is the same as the one on the bottom of the R7000P router. Which begs the question as to how would all customers know to look into the config and give the ISP the correct MAC address. Which is the correct one?


The "easy" way would be to read the WAN/Internet adapter MAC address from the carrier supplied CPE.

 

If your ISP does allow you to send them your own router MAC address, it's on Advanced / Advanced Home -> Internet Port 

 


@WishIknew wrote:

Not being able to see the ISP side; can the ISP see the MAC address? They surely can see their own ONT.............and from there see the router?


Of course, they can. For example on a cable modem (the WAN/Internet connection is a simple Ethernet link). In the case of PON, GPON, XG-PON (all make use of a shared fiber with many more customers) the ONT does create kind of a virtual L2 link for each customer - thus they can see again the MAC like you can see the local attached devices on their PON switches.

 


@WishIknew wrote:

In my other Netgear routers I can see the MAC address of every device connected and those trying to connect! Thus Access Control. 


No idea what home users is riding to add a MAC based white list aka. Access Control - it's tedious, it's a pain in the back, and last but not least it became kind of obsolete because more and more devices use random MAC addresses out of the box for "privacy" reasons by default for new connections. So even more tedious to manage one more detail on each connected client.  I hope you know the people having access (physical or wireless LAN)... 

 


@WishIknew wrote:

The ISP doesn't offer support for the customer's equipment, which I understand. But.....................................


....but they don't prohibit it - be happy!

 

 

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