Reply

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

mzguy
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

Google Cast cannot completely explain this issue. For starters, this occurred for me when I upgraded firmware, though I had Android and cast devices already. Second, it continued to occur for me when there were no Android or iOS devices in the house trying to link to my single cast device. Also, reverting to older firmware didn't fix the issue (why?), but sometimes the problem didn't occur for a few days. Did the Android and Cast devices suddenly decide to not communicate for a few days?

Again, I now believe that Netgear damaged some routers with it's firmware, causing instability in one or more chips in the devices. Now under certain conditions, they start failing. I still think it may be temperature dependent.

Why are some third party firmwares working? Who knows, but my guess is they aren't using the hardware in the same fashion. Perhaps Netgear's firmware over clocks some components, or perhaps Netgear's firmware simply requires more processing in some sense.
Message 301 of 434
rogier64
Luminary

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

Google Cast does not help stability, but it is not the only reason for the problems with the R7000. It is the NG firmware that has a number of bugs. And flashing an older firmware will no longer help, even though some users report a stable router after flashing old firmware. The hardware is not damaged. If you flash an alternative firmware like XWRT-Vortex the router is stable again.

Message 302 of 434
mzguy
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@rogier64 wrote:

Google Cast does not help stability, but it is not the only reason for the problems with the R7000. It is the NG firmware that has a number of bugs. And flashing an older firmware will no longer help, even though some users report a stable router after flashing old firmware. The hardware is not damaged. If you flash an alternative firmware like XWRT-Vortex the router is stable again.


How do you know these things? How is it possible for your two statements (which I made bold above) to both be true?

 

Like any computing environment, if I run a test with one software setup, I expect the test to behave the same unless I change something in the environment / input, or the hardware. Given that the environment isn't changing, and neither was the specific type of input, a change in the hardware is the only explanation.

 

For those who haven't been following.... I and others were on  1.0.9.12  or earlier firmwares for months /  years without problems, with the same devices on the network doing the usual things. Then, we switched to 1.0.9.14 or later. Now, switching back to 1.0.9.12 or earlier firmware yields different results.

 

Conclusion: either the software never completely reverted (because things stay behind between firmware versions), or the hardware is no longer the same. Right?

 

Message 303 of 434
Retired_Member
Not applicable

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

Doesn't this mean all the phones / tablets / laptop / desktops on the network must be running the same OS with the exact same apps doing the same thing, and all TV / receivers / game consoles / security cameras running the exact same firmwares, etc.?

A truly hermatic test environment is practically impossible outside a carefully crafted test lab. The explanation from TP Link sounds plausible, and Google has already admitted to causing problem. Different brands and firmwares may have different tolerance to the bad behavior from the Google issue, but the magical alignment of Android Oreo release to issues starting to crop up seemed too convenient to be coincidence.

Personally, I've reverted as far back as 1.0.7.12, but continued to experience disconnects. As soon as I disabled the Android cast media control on all my devices, as suggested by the TP Link post, I had 24 hours free of disconnects. I've since then upgraded back to 1.0.9.18 for about 18 hours now without any issue (fingers crossed).

Netgear should've done much better in identifying the issue sooner, but I think Google might end up being the one to blame.
Message 304 of 434

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

 


@mzguy wrote:

Conclusion: either the software never completely reverted (because things stay behind between firmware versions), or the hardware is no longer the same. Right?

 


 

I disagree with none of that. I simply add that you need to add another factor. After people made these firmware changes – up or down – did they "factory reset" their hardware?

 

If they don't do that then there is a good chance that settings from the earlier (or newer) firmware are still there, lurking in the current setup.

 

For some reason, past reports of problems fixed – look for the solved tags – suggest that wifi behaviour is particularly susceptible to these hangovers.

 

 

 

Just another user with a set of boilerplate macros.

My network DM200 -> R7800 -> GS316 -> PL1000 -> Orbi RBR40 -> Orbi RBS50Y -> RBS40V
Message 305 of 434
rogier64
Luminary

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity



How do you know these things? How is it possible for your two statements (which I made bold above) to both be true?

 

 

Conclusion: either the software never completely reverted (because things stay behind between firmware versions), or the hardware is no longer the same. Right?

 


Like I said, a few users report a stable R7000 after flashing old firmware, but most of them have a instable R7000. Read the complete topic. By flashing XWRT-Vortex (or Tomato) you will be surprised. All problems will be gone. Probably the CFE bootloader will be changed during flashing. It is probably the reason that you cannot simply revert to stock NG firmware. It requires a special procedure.

Message 306 of 434
HWAM
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

@Retired_Member Forget it. It is not Google. Don't jump to ridiculous conclusions. Unbelievable you do that. I don't use any cast device and there was nobody at home for hours when my Wi-Fi dropped. I updated the Netgear firmware the same day, that was the only change!!
Message 307 of 434
mzguy
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

@Retired_Member wrote:
Doesn't this mean all the phones / tablets / laptop / desktops on the network must be running the same OS with the exact same apps doing the same thing, and all TV / receivers / game consoles / security cameras running the exact same firmwares, etc.?

Well sure. However, a lot of data goes through our networks, under all sorts of conditions. The point is, that the networks were all resilient enough to handle these various cases with varying data, as they should be. Then suddenly they weren't. Not one network, not ten, but thousands. Almost all were breaking. I wasn't referring to strict input / output comparability, but rather the stability of the systems as a whole within certain parameters. Something changed after firmware 1.0.9.14 was installed. It changed in an apparently irreversible fashion.  Sure, if you run totally different software (e.g. Tomato), you might get different results. However, my point was that thousands of stable networks don't change into thousands of unstable networks, merely because we're not launching the same apps or connecting the same devices in the right sequence. I still see only three reasonable explanations: the hardware changed (damage), the software changed (reverting firmware doesn't truly revert everything; something lingers), or there is a date trigger somewhere (malware-based or firmware-hardcoded). I see no other options. I vote hardware damage with consequent temperature sensitivity. Why? I have an experienced-based hunch, and I've debugged tech for fun and as a profession for decades. The fact that this issue leads networks to fail after minutes in some cases, but they stay stable for over a week in other instances, is very suggestive evidence to me.

A truly hermatic test environment is practically impossible outside a carefully crafted test lab. The explanation from TP Link sounds plausible, and Google has already admitted to causing problem. Different brands and firmwares may have different tolerance to the bad behavior from the Google issue, but the magical alignment of Android Oreo release to issues starting to crop up seemed too convenient to be coincidence.

I don't run Oreo anywhere, and most others don't either. Oreo market penetration is less than 2%. I don't double there's a Chromecast issue. But it's not the issue that started this thread.  Ironically, I did install a Chromecast Audio about 3 to 4 weeks prior to my problems starting. However, the problems started not after that, but on installing firmware 1.0.9.14. Others experienced the same. Furthermore, others here reported Chromecast in their environments much longer before issues started. Now, I would buy that the Cast issue is exposed by certain firmware versions. Nonethless, that wouldn't explain this issue, as people can't get stability by going back to very old firmware.

Personally, I've reverted as far back as 1.0.7.12, but continued to experience disconnects. As soon as I disabled the Android cast media control on all my devices, as suggested by the TP Link post, I had 24 hours free of disconnects. I've since then upgraded back to 1.0.9.18 for about 18 hours now without any issue (fingers crossed).

As I mentioned, I and others had 1 week or more of stability on older firmware, and even on newer firmware. Then, we sometimes suffered 5 disconnects a day following that.

Netgear should've done much better in identifying the issue sooner, but I think Google might end up being the one to blame.

 

Google is to blame for a lot of things, but not what we've been posting about here. 


 

Message 308 of 434
mzguy
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@rogier64 wrote:


How do you know these things? How is it possible for your two statements (which I made bold above) to both be true?

 

 

Conclusion: either the software never completely reverted (because things stay behind between firmware versions), or the hardware is no longer the same. Right?

 


Like I said, a few users report a stable R7000 after flashing old firmware, but most of them have a instable R7000. Read the complete topic. By flashing XWRT-Vortex (or Tomato) you will be surprised. All problems will be gone. Probably the CFE bootloader will be changed during flashing. It is probably the reason that you cannot simply revert to stock NG firmware. It requires a special procedure.


I've been here since the beginning of this problem and have read every post. There might be one (only one) user who is still stable on an old firmware, but I don't think so. I think even that person came back after a couple weeks and said that problems have returned. As I mentioned, I agree that third-party firmware might fix the issues. That doesn't mean the hardware wasn't damaged though! That simply means the firmware may not be pushing the hardware like the stock firmware does. I've heard that most third-party firmware doesn't take advantage of hardware acceleration like the stock firmware does. That fits neatly with what I'm saying.

 

I had a PC once that was stable for years. Then suddenly it started crashing (blue screens, freezes). I could prevent it from crashing by running office apps. Once I started pushing it  with games or other heavy processing, down it went. Now, someone could come along and tell me that if I just ran different "firmware " / software / apps, it wouldn't crash. However, the hardware was damaged due to my overclocking. How do I know? I could reduce the overclocking and avoid problems completely.

 

I think we have some version of that issue here.

Message 309 of 434
rogier64
Luminary

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@HWAM wrote:
@Retired_Member Forget it. It is not Google. Don't jump to ridiculous conclusions. Unbelievable you do that. I don't use any cast device and there was nobody at home for hours when my Wi-Fi dropped. I updated the Netgear firmware the same day, that was the only change!!

Exactly, I don't have a Google Cast. Although the problems became massive with a recent FW update, I had issues about 8 months ago starting with disconnecting WAN to my (bridged) Cisco cable modem. A FW update did not solve it but added instability on 2.4GHz WiFi. 

Message 310 of 434
HWAM
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

@JamesGL @droman Give us information and stop those useless discussions!!!!
Come on Netgear, community!!!
Message 311 of 434

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@Case850 wrote:

@HWAM, @mzguy, we could be dealing with two issues, the first issue has Google at the source of the problem. It remains to be seen if Netgear firmware has damaged some R7000s.

 

Only two? The history of this issue is now so complicated that many factors could be involved.

 

Some people turn up here with a wifi issue and automatically assume that they have the same problem as everybody else. That's a reasonable guess, but life is often more complicated than that.

 

I'm surprised that we haven't seen any suggestions that the latest version of Windows is implicated. (I have seen messages about that doing other wifi damage.) It is, after all, a recent change that many of us have been through.

 

Given all those links you provide, it does seem perverse to deny any link to Google Chrome for at least some of those meltdowns.

 

 

 

 

Just another user with a set of boilerplate macros.

My network DM200 -> R7800 -> GS316 -> PL1000 -> Orbi RBR40 -> Orbi RBS50Y -> RBS40V
Message 312 of 434
mzguy
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@Case850 wrote:

@HWAM, @mzguy, we could be dealing with two issues, the first issue has Google at the source of the problem. It remains to be seen if Netgear firmware has damaged some R7000s.

 

http://www.tp-link.com/us/faq-2050.html

 

http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/09/12/mystery-nexus-players-android-8-0-oreo-uploading-hundreds-gi...

 

https://www.androidauthority.com/google-home-max-wifi-830129/

 

https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!msg/googlehome/MmnsVnSxdQc/qBJF2KJ1AQAJ


Thanks for the info. We definitely have two different problems. From my understanding, what distinguishes the Cast problem from the one posted about most in this thread are:

  • The Netgear problems started with firmware 1.0.9.14, not with any addition of a Cast device.
  • The Netgear problems cannot be fixed by moving to a version of firmware prior to 1.0.9.14 that anyone has discovered.
  • The Netgear problem results in a disconnect of the entire 2.4GHz band. The only way to resolve this loss of connectivity is to "reset" the band through a change of certain router settings, toggling the 2.4GHz band off/on, or a router reboot. The Cast problem reportedly allows reconnection after "a short time".

I'm sure there are other obvious differences in behavior.

 

During the holidays, I lost connectivity on my home network despite no Android or iOS devices in the house. During that time, connectivity was dead for days. None of this fits what we know about the Cast problem.

 

Message 313 of 434
rogier64
Luminary

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@mzguy wrote:


I've been here since the beginning of this problem and have read every post. There might be one (only one) user who is still stable on an old firmware, but I don't think so. I think even that person came back after a couple weeks and said that problems have returned. As I mentioned, I agree that third-party firmware might fix the issues. That doesn't mean the hardware wasn't damaged though! That simply means the firmware may not be pushing the hardware like the stock firmware does. I've heard that most third-party firmware doesn't take advantage of hardware acceleration like the stock firmware does. That fits neatly with what I'm saying.

 

 


XWRT-Vortex unlocks regional restrictions. You can set each WiFi channel in both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz, which is normally not available for your region. TX power can also be adjusted in increments of 5 mW up to 500 mW (100%), well above what is permitted in some countries. All without damaging the router. XWTR-Vortex also uses the HW accelerator drivers of Broadcom. You will not lose speed, in most cases it will increase.

Message 314 of 434
mzguy
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@michaelkenward wrote:

Only two? The history of this issue is now so complicated that many factors could be involved.

 

Some people turn up here with a wifi issue and automatically assume that they have the same problem as everybody else. That's a reasonable guess, but life is often more complicated than that.

 

I'm surprised that we haven't seen any suggestions that the latest version of Windows is implicated. (I have seen messages about that doing other wifi damage.) It is, after all, a recent change that many of us have been through.

 

Given all those links you provide, it does seem perverse to deny any link to Google Chrome for at least some of those meltdowns.

 


And no doubt some people come here to report a dead router because they forgot to plug it in. I'm not saying other problems don't exist, but I think the evidence is in that we have two distinct problems that a significant number of people are experiencing, with most on the thread here posting about the first:

  1. Netgear released a firmware that killed stability for the 2.4GHz band . This problem has symptoms that include an inability to fix the problem through many combinations of firmware downgraded, upgrades, and factory resets. There's a lot of misinformation in this thread because people report "stability for 48 hours" and assume they've found a fix. I'm 100% confident that many posters with this issue aren't idiots, and are getting the basics right. In other words, there's a real problem, and they haven't simply forgotten to plug in their routers. 🙂
  2. There's a Cast issue for people who have those devices on their networks. It has been documented and seems well understood by the companies involved. It's not the same as problem #1, has a different root cause, etc.

I don't have Windows 10. Other than that, I wouldn't think to implicate Windows because people by the dozens have come here and said that their problems started after a Netgear firmware update, not after a Windows upgrade!

 

 

Message 315 of 434
mzguy
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@rogier64 wrote:

@mzguy wrote:


I've been here since the beginning of this problem and have read every post. There might be one (only one) user who is still stable on an old firmware, but I don't think so. I think even that person came back after a couple weeks and said that problems have returned. As I mentioned, I agree that third-party firmware might fix the issues. That doesn't mean the hardware wasn't damaged though! That simply means the firmware may not be pushing the hardware like the stock firmware does. I've heard that most third-party firmware doesn't take advantage of hardware acceleration like the stock firmware does. That fits neatly with what I'm saying.

 

 


XWRT-Vortex unlocks regional restrictions. You can set each WiFi channel in both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz, which is normally not available for your region. TX power can also be adjusted in increments of 5 mW up to 500 mW (100%), well above what is permitted in some countries. All without damaging the router. XWTR-Vortex also uses the HW accelerator drivers of Broadcom. You will not lose speed, in most cases it will increase.


And those will be fine for some people. I used Tomato for years prior to buying my R7000. Ability to run Tomato was a criterion for buying the R7000 in the first place. I won't run it now though, because security fixes (such as KRACK) are non-existent and may be for a very long time.

 

As for explaining the issue at hand, I still vote for hardware damage. It could simply be that Netgear's firmware has some inefficient operations that trigger crashes (high processor load). It might still be possible to crash those routers with third-party firmware, and perhaps no one has yet actually done so. The number of people with this issue probably numbers in the thousands. The number of those people who moved to third-party firmware is probably in the dozens. If the hardware is damaged, some warmer temperatures (we're in a cold spell in much of the nation), along with some heavy loads might crash the third-party firmware too. We simply don't know, and I wouldn't be too confident of any conclusion with such a small sample size and short testing period. We're talking about a dozen or fewer testers who post here, over about 2 weeks of testing... with who knows what kinds of environments. 

 

What I do know is that old Netgear firmware worked fine on these thousands of routers for years, and now it doesn't. That speaks volumes.

Message 316 of 434
rogier64
Luminary

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

Krack is fixed in XWRT-Vortex version 380.69. 

Message 317 of 434
mzguy
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@rogier64 wrote:

Krack is fixed in XWRT-Vortex version 380.69. 


Only for bridge & repeater mode though, according to the release notes? A better fix is mentioned here:

 

https://www.krackattacks.com/#ap-mitigations

 

That said, I don't even know if Netgear stock firmware has these mitigations. Netgear won't say.

 

Message 318 of 434
Retired_Member
Not applicable

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

It sounds more likely that they added or changed a nvram variable that is not getting reset by the loading of previous firmware.
Message 319 of 434
rnauth
Aspirant

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

I have this problem for a while I did end up resetting and changing to another firmware and had the same problem. It seems like restarting gets me a day then just all the devices gets disconnected. All the phones and computers say not internet available. I do not mind helping to try and troubleshoot with netgear but would like to know if it is a one time thing or all the time until it is resolved.
Message 320 of 434
hellspawn69
Guide

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

Well, days back I said I thought I had the fix and would report back. I haven't had the 2.4 band drop since I made the changes. No factory resets, no downgrading firmware, just some looking into the settings.

Here is what I did-

Don't enable Smart Connect

Disable the SSID Broadcast of the 2.4 band. (currently testing to see if this is necessary)

Disable the 20/40 MHz Coexistence

Set channel manually (I picked 5, but currently testing to see if this is necessary)

 

I also have a 2.4 Guest SSID, it was dropping along with the 2.4 band originally, I didn't make any changes on that, and it has not experienced any drops since making the above changes to my main 2.4 SSID.

See if this works for you folks, if it does, here is a link to my GoFundMe.

https://www.gofundme.com/ford-mustang-gt-netgear

Maybe if this fixes the issue for more than just myself, Netgear can just make a full $ amount donation for all the time/effort/lost customers I would have just saved them.

Message 321 of 434
stuckincube
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

I'm also have the issue for a few weeks now after I had updated the router firmware when I was doing some other network changes.

 

This reminds me of the same issue I had with this router a few years ago when 2.4G was dropping and Netgear worked for months on a new firmware, in the end they had to disable all the new Arlo functions which for whatever reason were causing the 2.4G wifi to stop responding after hours/days.  I think this is an old related thread:
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-WiFi-Routers/R7000-2-4ghz-not-working-but-5ghz-is-fine/td...

 

Hopefully they fix this quicker than last time!

Message 322 of 434
mzguy
Apprentice

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

@hellspawn69

So, how cold has it been where you're located? Really cold perhaps? 🙂

Let me know if your router remains stable after temperatures go above 50. 😉
Message 323 of 434
hellspawn69
Guide

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity

My router is in my living room, temp in the house doesn't swing much.
Message 324 of 434
djjaeger82
Star

Re: R7000 keeps losing 2.4GHz wireless connectivity


@mzguy wrote:

@Case850 wrote:

@HWAM, @mzguy, we could be dealing with two issues, the first issue has Google at the source of the problem. It remains to be seen if Netgear firmware has damaged some R7000s.

 

http://www.tp-link.com/us/faq-2050.html

 

http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/09/12/mystery-nexus-players-android-8-0-oreo-uploading-hundreds-gi...

 

https://www.androidauthority.com/google-home-max-wifi-830129/

 

https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!msg/googlehome/MmnsVnSxdQc/qBJF2KJ1AQAJ


Thanks for the info. We definitely have two different problems. From my understanding, what distinguishes the Cast problem from the one posted about most in this thread are:

  • The Netgear problems started with firmware 1.0.9.14, not with any addition of a Cast device.
  • The Netgear problems cannot be fixed by moving to a version of firmware prior to 1.0.9.14 that anyone has discovered.
  • The Netgear problem results in a disconnect of the entire 2.4GHz band. The only way to resolve this loss of connectivity is to "reset" the band through a change of certain router settings, toggling the 2.4GHz band off/on, or a router reboot. The Cast problem reportedly allows reconnection after "a short time".

I'm sure there are other obvious differences in behavior.

 

During the holidays, I lost connectivity on my home network despite no Android or iOS devices in the house. During that time, connectivity was dead for days. None of this fits what we know about the Cast problem.

 


Not true, I was able to completely fix my R7000 2.4g wifi disconnects by rolling firmware back to the very first ever release and hard resetting.  Since then I've upgraded to 1.0.7.12 but have not pushed further than that firmware release, things have been stable almost a month now.

Message 325 of 434
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