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Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

When Configured in "Access Point Mode" (or when manually configured as a swtich by turning off DHCP), the r7500 has many limitations.

 

A better know example is that the r7500 in "Access Point Mode" disables NetGear's "Quality of Service" (QoS) to function.

 

A lesser know example (at least I didn't know this, and nor do I find it in their literature): one might expect the r7500 to function as a normal switch in "Access Point Mode" (as does the r7000), but the r7500 does not... at not least in high traffic situations.  I bought four units, all configured in "Access Point Mode" with DHCP disabled and manually entered Gateway/DNS info.  The units seem to function as a normal switch for both Wired and WiFi, low traffic situations.  But if put in a high traffic situation (more users, higher throughputs), the units would failing to pass all traffic (WiFi or wired) after 2-5 minutes of operation ... UNLESS the WLAN port (yellow) was connected directly to the upstream Gateway/DNS server, then it would function something like a switch, or at least it would pass all traffic upstream.  If the Gateway/DNS server is connected to any other port, the unit fails.  True for R7500 and R7500v2.  I'm running the latest firmware (v1: 1.0.0.94; v2: 1.0.0.28)  

 

Up to this point, NetGear's customer service has generally been very responsive and professional... but they did not seem to know about this problem until I pointed it out to them. (Problematic- I'm not a fan of relying of companies that rely on their customer base for testing and troubleshooting, or keeping secrets from consumers).  They responded: "But as per the router is concerned, it is not designed to work as a switch, it has its own chipset for the firmware and hardware installed to work as a router or as an access point and there are limitations on this router when configured as an access point. "  I'm not buying this.  Many routers are designed to be configured as swtiches, and that is how thier "access point" mode works in the r7000.  If what they say is the case, NetGear needs to disclose that in the user manual and elsewhere.

 

I am waiting to hear if they intend to fix this particular "limitation" or even see it as a problem (they seem a little bit flippant).  If this router is to work for me, it will have to operate as a full feature switch while in Access Point (like the r7000).  I would also expect them to disclose (inform, warn) their future customers of any such "limitations", with details in the user manuals to keep new users from wasting their time (as I have).

 

Has anyone else encountered this problem? Any solutions?

 

 

Message 1 of 23

Accepted Solutions

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

Update: limited failover protection.

Netgear engineers seem to have identified the "problem" and written an updated firware that allows limited failover protection (using the WAN and a LAN port).  Awesome, thanks!  Now the WAN and LAN ports R7500 should function more like the R7000 while in Access Point Mode ("switch-like" with limited "failover")

 

It is nice to know that NetGear did get the message and took the issue seriously and fixed it.  While it was a bit more painful than necessary to get the feedback through to the design team so they could make the change (I think most customers would have given up long before me),  I am confident that NetGear does listen to their customers needs and is committed to getting their products to work in the way their customers need. 

 

Thanks again.   

 

DK

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Message 16 of 23

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Babylon5
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

I have an R7000, not an R7500, configured as an AP and don’t have any issues. I have the WAN port connected to the rest of my LAN, so it has a connection to the Gateway only on its WAN side. I believe this is the intended mode of operation when you have selected the AP mode function in the router GUI, and connecting the gateway to one of the LAN ports instead would not be following the intended design.

 

The initial setup of the R7000 is designed to detect this situation, a router connected to the WAN port, and in that case it will suggest to the user that AP mode is appropriate. If the user instead connected the gateway router to one of the LAN ports then that automatic setup detection would most likely fail.

 

If you manually configure the router as an AP by disabling DHCP, connecting only to LAN ports, but not selecting AP mode in the GUI do you see the same issue that you described? Or does the issue only occur if you select AP mode?

 

Message 2 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

Thanks Andy. 

 

Yeah, I have no problems with the r7000 either.  (In fact, I probably should have just stuck with them rather than buying the more probalematic r7500.)  The r7000 functions as a normal switch when in AP mode.  And it doesn't matter if the WLAN port is connected.  Try this yourself- change ports so you are not using the WLAN port.  You will see it works just fine. (more info Below)

 

I assume your asking about configuring the r7500 by manually turning off the DHCP.  With NetGear's customer service reps help (a few days ago) I did exactly that, I configured the r7500 as a "switch" by manually turning off the DHCP.  It made no difference.  It opperated exactly as if I had configured it using you wireless "Access Point" mode.

 

Any other ideas?

 

DK

 

------------------

More info about AP Mode on the r7000 & r7500

------------------

r7000In my system the r7500 is replacing older r7000 units that I have.  That r7000 is configured in AP mode and it works just fine as a switch.  I have, in fact, configured multiple r7000 units, each one using a differnet LAN ports (not just the WLAN).  When I set them to AP mode, these r7000's all acted like a switch should act.  Tthe Gateway can be connected to any port (not just the WLAN, like any switch), and it routes peer to peer traffic (LAN to LAN) without need of routing the traffic upstream (using the WLAN port).  When the r7500 fails, I am able to put the r7000 in its place without any worry about which cable is connected to which port. 

 

r7500The r7500 is able to be setup using ANY LAN port (not just the WLAN)...  and then it acts like a switch.  But that only for about 2-5 minutes in a high traffic situation.  After that, it freezes all traffic, even peer to peer traffic.   But I do have two r7500 units operating in a low traffic situation, and they seem to acting like switchs... operating just fine (not using the WLAN port at all).  I don't know why they work.  I have have been asuuming that it is because they are in a low traffic situation, but it may be some other reason...

 

Speculation about the Root Cuase.  When the r7500 in AP Mode is put in high traffic scenario, does it actually begin to route ALL traffic -- even peer to peer (LAN port to LAN port) traffic -- upstream on the WAN for the upstream switch or router to sort out?  If so, this is highly problematic... a major problem in the design.  All traffic local traffic would unnecessarily be routed via the WLAN to the upstream device for sorting by the upstream switch/router.  That would unnecssarily overloading the WLAN connection and the upstream switch.  Or is it the case that the router is "forgetting" the setup info (gateway, routing tables, etc.).  I've noticed another discussion thread where the r7500 was "forgetting" things...

 

 

Message 3 of 23
PEHowland
Apprentice

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

You're just connecting it incorrectly.  It's not a fault.  When using the R7500 as a switch, the upstream connection has to be to the WAN port.    I'm not sure what the problem is and why you find this a limitation?

Message 4 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

@PEHoward.. so the operator is connecting the "switch" "incorrectly"? If it were a switch, there would be no need to connect the upstream to the WAN port.... and thus no operator error.  That there is a posibility for operator error already suggests that something it malfunctioning as a switch... but I digress.

 

To answer your question, one thing my current network has with the r7000 (that I no longer have if the r7500 cannot act properly as a switch) is the ability to have more than one upstream connection, with dynamic shifting of traffic based on loading of the network or should one of the upstream switches/lines/powersupplies... go down.  The moment I loose the WLAN line, this something-other-than-a-switch (r7500) is out for the count and the entire system goes down.  Don't have that problem with the r7000.  Not acceptable for a network that needs reliability.

 

Do you have any ideas on how to get this box to function properly... which is to say, as a "switch" (like the r7000 and every other router I've ever seen when in "switch" mode)?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Message 5 of 23
Babylon5
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

It seems that ‘Switch Mode’ is a term you have created to support your argument, but the fact is that while Netgear used to have a KB article describing an AP mode for older routers bypassing the WAN port this was not a supported method, not guaranteed to work. For newer models that have a designed AP mode, that design is based on the use of the WAN port, which you highlighted in green in post 1 as working correctly.

 

So my point is that you are suggesting that the router is faulty but that fault is created by an undocumented use of the router. If you want Netgear engineers to fix something then they have to work with the current design, otherwise what you are asking for is a feature request or design change.

Message 6 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

@AndyI'm sorry about the vocabulary.  Clearly the r7500 is NOT acting as a LAN switch when in Access Point mode.  So you are correct that it is confusing to use this language.  UNLESS... it is supposed to be acting like a switch and it isn't... which is still my perspective.  And that is what I am tryng to clarify.

If your point is true, that the r7500 isn't supposed to be designed to work as a switch... at least as far as the upstream connection to the WAN port is concerned, than the issue is clarified.  I was hoping that the engineering department was quitely working behind the scenes to 'fix this problem'... er I mean, 'add a design feature' to make it work like the r7000.  Until I get a definitive answer on whether they are, I will have to write off the r7500 (and I suppose the r8000 and the r8500) as not doing what I need it to do.  

Thanks for your help,

DK

Message 7 of 23
PEHowland
Apprentice

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

@DK I get the feeling from your rant above that you think that you are getting answers from Netgear staff.  You're not.  This is a Community forum.  Every answer you get is from another user.  Use at your peril.

Message 8 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

Thanks @PEHowland. I thought the Netgear "moderator"  was an employee (and I suspected you were as well).

 

That changes everything.  I understand better the perspect of your comments and those of @Babylon5.  Just trying to work with what they gave us.I'll try to keep my comments directed at the "community" and not netgear (as I had been doing).

 

I appreciate the way you guys donate your time to help others, I've benefited much from these sorts of posts over the years.

 

Dennis

 

 

Message 9 of 23
Babylon5
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

I don’t work directly for Netgear, my day-job is a defence systems engineer. I do however work ‘with’ Netgear, a subtle difference that needs a little explaining. I work on the forums for Netgear offering advice, and where I consider it necessary or beneficial to Netgear or customers posting in the forums.

 

I can report this issue back to Netgear, but if I suggest that it is a ‘fault’ then I would expect the feedback to be along the lines of ‘it’s working as designed’. I can propose it as a requested change which will also be in line with other models in the same range.

 

The point made by PEHowland about the forums was correct up to the point where the forums were re-vamped this year, but since the forums changed many of the moderators are now Netgear employees, the main aim being to create better interaction between Netgear and the community.

Message 10 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

Thanks @Babylon5for the clarification.  Now I understand better your situation, as well as your comment about whether it is

   a "fault" or a

   a "feature request" or a "design change".

 

For me, the classification depends on whether NetGear's design team wanted the r7500 to work like the r7000 while in "Access Mode"... including the "switch-like" behavor of the r7000 I have come to depend on... of which perhaps they were not even really aware.... but hopefully they are now. 

 

If they intend (or intended) the two units to be functionality the same in a way which includes--intentionally or unintentionally--this obscure "switch-like" behavor of the r7000 of which I talk... then the lack of this "switch-like" behavoir would be a "fault", they will want to "correct". (it all sounds so judgmental, doesn't it?)

 

If they could care less about wether the functionality to be the same for both the r7000 and the r7500... at least when it comes to this so-called "switch-like" behavor (what ever that is...), then my request would obviously be  a "feature request" or a "design change". 

 

As you've probably gathered I would be happier, as a customer, if NetGear did indeed intend the functionality to be the same (even on the minor points).  I would feel safer buying NetGear's new stuff, something I am less willing to do if they don't worry about continuity of service and features in their products. 

 

In any case, I will let you present this ("problem-suggestion") to the engineers in the way you think best... should you even think it worthwhile.  Thanks for your help, which ever way it turns out. 

 

 

Message 11 of 23
Babylon5
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)


@DKinSwitzerland wrote:

 

In any case, I will let you present this ("problem-suggestion") to the engineers in the way you think best... should you even think it worthwhile.  Thanks for your help, which ever way it turns out. 

 

 


I’m happy to try to help and will send a message this evening, but just to be absolutely clear before I do so my understanding is that you want to;

 

  • Use the R7500 as an AP
  • You are setting it to AP mode in the GUI
  • You are not connecting to the WAN port but instead the Gateway/router is connected to a LAN port
  • You may wish to have failover cover so may have more than one Gateway
  • In the above configuration the R7500 fails to pass traffic to the Gateway after 2-5 minutes.
  • You have an R7000 which works in the way you would expect 

 

If any of the above is incorrect please let me know.

 

Message 12 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

You summary should be fine to get the ball rolling.  I will put a slightly more detailed summary below so that they have it all in one place.

 

DK

 

1. Observations.  When configured as an Access point using the GUI and when connected to the Gateway/router via a LAN port (and not the WAN port), the customer notes:

    ●his r7000 works (passes traffic) as expected.

    ●his r7500 fails to "work" (pass traffic) after 2-5 minutes, in most cases.

 

2. Basic Desire.  The Customer desires the r7500 to function as the r7000 does while in Access Point mode. By this he means:

 

    ●Wireless Traffic: r7500 functions as a Wireless Access Point

    ●Wired Traffic: r7500 functions as a "switch"

 

3. Details.  When the consumer says he desires the r7500 to treat wired traffic like as a switch, he means:

    ●the r7500 connects to the router via any wired connection (LAN or WAN)

    ●the r7500 can manage multiple connections to the Gateway/Router (LAN or WAN)

           -Dynamically routes traffic along the quickest path as actual traffic conditions change

           -Dynamically routes traffic around failed upstream connections (failover cover)

 

4. Looking Foward.  What the consumer says about the r7500 emulating the r7000 concerning wired traffic while in Access Point mode, he would also like to apply to the r8000, the r8500 and future NetGear products.  His network requires that Access Points have multiple conncections to upstream devices because reilability is important for him (single fault analysis).  He has many aging access points he would like to replace with NetGear products, but cannot if they do not have this functionality.

 

 

Message 13 of 23
Babylon5
NETGEAR Employee Retired

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

DKinSwitzerland, I will pass your comments on later today.

 

Regards,

 

Andy_in_UK

 

Message 14 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

Update:  My customer service Case was escalated and now an "expert" is also working to resolve the "issue". This has been very helpful, the customer service at this level are extremely professional, competent and attentive.  I am quite impressed. 

 

Failover: If the connection to the DNS/Gateway via the WAN completely failed (the equivlant of a disconnected a cable), it would be nice if the R7500 could to speak to the DNS/Gateway via a LAN port.  The R7000 does this, as does R7500 in certain circumstances.   The "expert" is currently looking into the reasons the units don't connect via the LAN (which is what is keeping me from getting the failover protection I desire). [Observation: It was my impression that the expert did, indeed, think the units were "malfunctioning" if they required a connection to the server via the WAN rather than any old LAN port.  Yet they have yet to say anything "official" on the matter.]

 

Dynamic load balancing: It was helpful that the "expert" was able to explain to me why that the R7500 does NOT offer Dynamic Load Balancing.  The R7500 does NOT have Link Aggregation features (LACP) by which the router monitors traffic on redundant (pre-designated) lines and choses which one to use (or which combination). This is a feature of more "advanced" switches/routers.  The R7500 is expensive and fast, but it is not apparently that advanced.  So no expect dynamic load balacing for the R7500. 

 

... or for the R8500... at least as far as WAN connections are concerned.  The R8500 advertises a very limited form of Link Aggregation (LACP), but this apparently not designed for upstream connections to the Gateway/DNS (WAN), only for certian downstream devices.

 

Message 15 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

Update: limited failover protection.

Netgear engineers seem to have identified the "problem" and written an updated firware that allows limited failover protection (using the WAN and a LAN port).  Awesome, thanks!  Now the WAN and LAN ports R7500 should function more like the R7000 while in Access Point Mode ("switch-like" with limited "failover")

 

It is nice to know that NetGear did get the message and took the issue seriously and fixed it.  While it was a bit more painful than necessary to get the feedback through to the design team so they could make the change (I think most customers would have given up long before me),  I am confident that NetGear does listen to their customers needs and is committed to getting their products to work in the way their customers need. 

 

Thanks again.   

 

DK

Message 16 of 23
jvdstoel
Aspirant

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

Where can I download this firmware?

The latest version in Downloads is 1.0.0.22, which is dated Nov. 16, 2015.

I have a similar issue: does this fix also my problem? See https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-WiFi-Routers/R7500-wireless-AP-Problems/td-p/1023401

 

Thanks,

Johan

Message 17 of 23
jvdstoel
Aspirant

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

I see now this firmware is for r7500v2. For the X4 R7500 (which I have) the latest version is 1.0.0.94. So... where can I download this newest version?

 

Thanks, Johan

Message 18 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

If I understand what is happening in your setup, @jvdstoel, when you try to connect your switch downstream of the R7500, the R7500 eventually shuts down. 

     Router 2 (Gbit)--> [WAN] R7500 [LAN] ---> Switch (GS742T)

 

Not exactly the same as mine, since my unit works fine when router/gateway is connected via the WAN

     Router --> [WAN] R7500 [LAN] ---> Switch

and fails when the router/gateway is connected via a LAN Port with high traffic:

     Router --> [LAN] R7500 [LAN] ---> Switch

 

Comments:

Based on my own discussions with NetGear about the problems I am seeing on my R7500, I suspect you are correct in identifying an error in the R7500 when in Access Point.  And it is probably related to the error I am finding when I start running  in high traffic through my downstream switch.

 

Clearly, NetGear's primary concern for Access Point operation is the WiFi, not the LAN ports. (The name "Access Point" describes what is happening with the WiFi, but says nothing about how the LAN ports should operate... and their documentation is silent as well).  Quite dissappointing!  The Nighthawk line is their flagship line, and for the price they charge you would expect the LAN ports in Access Point mode to work like a fully managed switch (QoS, Dynamic load balancing, aggregate links, etc), or at least like an unmanaged switch.  But since their design team obviously gave very little thought to the LAN ports in Access Point mode, the functionality of the LAN ports is sub par on R7500 in Access Point mode (as you will see if you follow my thread).  

 

I would guess that as the traffic increases (or perhaps it is only certian kinds of traffic), the wired features of the R7500 are unable to keep up, and that is causing both of our problems.  I'm hoping the firmware update they gave me addresses the problem, but I'm out of time for the moment on troubleshooting and won't get back to this for a few months.  I hope you are able to get somewhere.

 

You will have to contact NetGear directly for the firmware upgrade they provided me.  I am not sure it solves either of our problem, but at least they tried.  And if it doesn't, I'm relatively sure they will take the feedback and try again.

 

Message 19 of 23
Seekerng
Tutor

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

I have a R7500V2 running on V1.0.2.2.

 

When running as a router mode, R7500V2 behaves as designed.

 

When R7500V2 runs as an AP,

 

1. Devices connected to it via wireless work OK (i.e. wireless PC --> AP of R7500V2 - WAN port of R7500 --> gateway router). However, wifi guest can NO longer be restricted from accessing resources attached to R7500V2 as clearly the case under router mode. 

 

2. Any device connected to R7500V2 via its LAN ports started working but then dropped out after a while.  I tried it several times to be able to say that it was not an isolated incident. On reflection, I think DkinSwitzerland accurately described the symptom.

 

I agree with DkinSwitzerland that R7500V2 fails as an AP device. On this point, I understand his frustration having bought four units if R7500V2.

 

For me, I wait till an Open Source firmware available for R7500V2, I will flash it over R7500V2's original firmware. Netgear s/w dept needs to lift up its game. I do hope this is taken as a constructive comment.

Message 20 of 23
jvdstoel
Aspirant

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

>> Not exactly the same as mine, since my unit works fine when router/gateway is connected via the WAN

     Router --> [WAN] R7500 [LAN] ---> Switch

 

This works in my situation as well.

 

This situation fails:

  Router --> [WAN] R7500 [LAN] ---> Switch (works fine)

                               R7500 [WIFI]  (fails)

To be more precise: 

- the wifi connection remains operating (as my wifi client, mobile phone for example indicates the connection remains available).

- their is no data traffic between the wifi client and the internet after some time (I think WIFI data traffic stops when LAN data traffic starts).

- the Netgear logging reports a wifi security issue (so points you towards a wrong conclusion).

- there are no problems with the LAN devices.

- the problem can be cleared by saving the WIFI settings (after which the problem comes back some time later).

- my conclusion: software bug in R7500.

Message 21 of 23
jvdstoel
Aspirant

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

I posted too fast...

 

How to contact Netgear directly? I am not willing to pay them for solving obvious bugs as I bought the unit a few months ago. I learned through their website that you only can get support after 3 months when you are willing to pay them.

Message 22 of 23

Re: R7500 'Limitations' in Access Point Mode (Nighthawk X4 r7500 ac2350, r7500v2)

I found the NetGear support phone number on their website (under support).  I don't remember which number I called.  Good luck.

Message 23 of 23
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