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R7800

This question was posed slightly different.

The list of attched devices , as well as the list of devices in acces control seems to be limited. It doen't show all my devices.

 

Model: R7450|Nighthawk AC2600 Smart WiFi Router
Message 1 of 18
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Master

Re: R7800

Not sure what you are talking about with 2 different routers mentioned, but if it is the Access Control list or Attached Device list, you should know it seems to be broke on most if not ALL NG routers. Probably using the same defective code in all router f/w versions. Someday, it might just be fixed.

 

Mobile apps, like NightHawk seem to work better than the Browser Genie. Can even EDIT names and Icons with it.

Message 2 of 18
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Apprentice

Attached Devices List

This has bugged me for some time now.  What device on one's LAN should know best what is connected to that LAN?  Well one would think it to be the router that is managing said LAN.  But, NO, at least with my R7800 it seems to miss some devices, and not always the same ones.

 

This is a security issue!  One should be able to see ALL devices, both wired and wireless (std and guest.)  I have to use an app on my smart phone to see all my devices. Really poor on the part of Netgear.  I thought this was just a weakness of the R7800, but to make matters worse  if IrvSpMaster is right:

 

Master
 

... you should know it seems to be broke on most if not ALL NG routers. Probably using the same defective code in all router f/w versions. Someday, it might just be fixed.

This is a REALLY bad show for Netgear!

 

bc

R7800 w/v1.0.2.62

Model: R7800|Nighthawk X4S AC2600 Wifi Router
Message 3 of 18
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Master

Re: Attached Devices List

@RNASguy, first, I am not a 'master', that is just a tag (which I never figured out the ranking, but can guess it has more to do with how many Kudos, Solutions made, or even posts one made, that Netgear Forum gives to people. Basically, it is just a measure of something, not of knowledge :-)....

 

I 'feel' Netgear has finally figured out something is wrong with Support process, especially the coding, testing, QA, and release of firmware. I don't know the last Firmware released, but it has been a long time ago I believe. I think they have gone back to 'square one' and looked and reviewed everything. There are lots of 'small' things to fix. Like the Access Control and Attached Device list, and I'd add Logging to it too, too many false positives showing. I think Support was focused (before) on functionality problems, drops of Wifi, slow speeds, etc. The R7000 had a V1.0.9.60 release of the firmware. It really broke a lot of things... and soon after, the 'repair' V1.0.9.64, which was even worse. That was many months ago. The .60 was released on Dec. 4th, 2018, and the .64 (if the numbering is correct, 4 build later) on Mar. 26th, 2019. Nothing since then. Possible the build number would indicate 1 per month... if so, maybe one out soon for the R7000 and it actually fixes things.

 

However, common files (if they are using them) if fixed would fix any router using them.

 

I have ZERO insight as to what is going on, it is just my guess. I could be entirely wrong, but we shall soon see if NG Support can fix glaring errors and problems.

 

I attribute this to either Management losing control, new program coding staff ill trained, a 3rd party change, testing not rigerous, or poor Quality Assurance, maybe even combinations of them. May take some time to fix this, I sure hope it is happening.

 

Netgear may not be alone like this either. Suggest you look at other Residential router forums... Now here is one, ASUS, https://www.snbforums.com/forums/asus-wireless.37/, and it is not an ASUS forum as they don't even have one on the Internet (they did have this one but dropped out of it). Look familiar in terms of subjects compared to here? LinkSys, D-Link, TPLink, and others, basically mirrors of each other in terms of topics at least.

Message 4 of 18
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Apprentice

Re: R7800

 
Message 5 of 18
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Master

Re: Attached Devices List

@IrvSp 

One can hope that you are correct about Netgear rethinking the firmware process. With the newer version numbering it appears they may be headed to a consolidated build for common parts of the firmware and then via compile statements to bring in the pieces for the individual routers. That is how I would do it. 

 

I does seem like management let things get away from them and did not have proper oversight and QA in place. Therefore the same issues release after release. That should not happen with proper oversight, IMHO. They took an older, but still vary capable router the R7000, and turned it into a POC with the latest firmware. I had one when they first came out and they just worked after a couple of kinks were worked out with the firmware, now it has the same issues as the newer routers. Just should not happen! 

 

You are also correct about other vendors having similar issues especially with wireless. That makes me wonder if the issue is out of the manufactures hands as they are relying on firmware from the clip manufacturer I assume. If the driver for a chipset crashes so does that wireless connection, but the whole router would not go down I suspect. So in that case the firmware will only be as good as what is provided to Netgear. 

 

As I have said many times before, Netgear was always my go to consumer grade router, however no more. 

--Bill
ISP Comcast, Modem-Netgear CM1150V, Router-Unifi Security Gateway-Pro4, AP-2 Unifi AP-LR
Tesla > Edison
Message 6 of 18
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Master

Re: Attached Devices List


@myersw wrote:

@IrvSp 

One can hope that you are correct about Netgear rethinking the firmware process. With the newer version numbering it appears they may be headed to a consolidated build for common parts of the firmware and then via compile statements to bring in the pieces for the individual routers. That is how I would do it. 

 

I does seem like management let things get away from them and did not have proper oversight and QA in place. Therefore the same issues release after release. That should not happen with proper oversight, IMHO. They took an older, but still vary capable router the R7000, and turned it into a POC with the latest firmware. I had one when they first came out and they just worked after a couple of kinks were worked out with the firmware, now it has the same issues as the newer routers. Just should not happen! 

 

You are also correct about other vendors having similar issues especially with wireless. That makes me wonder if the issue is out of the manufactures hands as they are relying on firmware from the clip manufacturer I assume. If the driver for a chipset crashes so does that wireless connection, but the whole router would not go down I suspect. So in that case the firmware will only be as good as what is provided to Netgear. 

 

As I have said many times before, Netgear was always my go to consumer grade router, however no more. 


I seriously doubt the problem is a chipset one, 99.9% sure because if it hit others too the chipset maker would have notified vendors and it would be an easy fix. Get the new binary and recompile and release. Would not have any effect on some 'features', like the Attached Device list.

 

Even if it were, it would be a subset of routers only and some do have different wireless chip vendor products in them.

Message 7 of 18
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Apprentice

Re: Attached Devices List

In reading this thread, and having experienced issues with the attached devices feature on my Nighthawk R7800 several things occur to me:

 

* We are speculating as to why attached devices has been broken for so long. We variously ascribe it to chip vendors’ drivers, Netgear code, poor QC, and poor management.

 

* What is clear, is that wherever the actual problem might live, poor management and oversight are key.

 

* Netgear as a company does not care that it is broken, as shown by it being broken for such a long time. And, no Netgear response here in the forum is very telling.

 

Now some personal notes and speculation:

 

* I am a long standing user of Netgear ReadyNAS, ReadyData, and both managed and unmanaged switches. I currently have 8 boxes of the afore mentioned types, and had 2 or 3 more that have passed on to the history pile. I say that to emphasize my shock at the poor firmware in the R7800. This R7800 is my first NG router. And, it was not at all what I was expecting. Like the hardware, don’t like the software.

 

* The R7800 has been on the market for some time, and that fact makes firmware issues even more shocking. I do not know if any of the issues that I see in the R7800 go across the Nighthawk line, but I suspect that many do so.

 

* The menu structure is cumbersome and crude. I like the BASIC/ADVANCED bifurcation, but little else.

 

* I was both curious and annoyed by the issues in the R7800 that I opened support tickets. The men and women that I spoke with were friendly and tried to help, but the emulators they used had problems. One tech even did an RMA on the theory the router had a defect. Nope, the second one acted the same way. A very poor show.

 

* I think it is true that the demographic that care about these issues is smaller than the public at large that is buying consumer routers. What NG fails to realize is that most of that small demographic are the ones who advise and recommend to the general consumer group.

 

* With IPv6 and IoT soon home LANs will have an avalanche of connected devices. NG had better get on the stick or be left behind.

 

* I currently use freeware stand alone programs to scan my LAN and produce a list of attached devices. But why . . . the router is sitting at the center and is managing all those connected devices. One would think it could come up with a good list.

 

As IrvSp wrote: we can hope they are addressing the problem.

bc
R7800 w/v1.0.2.62
Nighthawk X4S AC2600 WiFi Router

Message 8 of 18
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Master

Re: Attached Devices List

@RNASguy, it is easy to asses blame and try and figure out what is going on. But it really isn't. There are different problems even, and some are considered non-critical I imagine. Also so probably are across the product line and on more than one router. I almost get the feeling the non-critical are left alone, the ones across the product line, well, the specific person working on your router might not 'own' that code?

 

Bad Support. I got news for you, it is NOT new. I bought an R7000 a long time ago, shortly after it came out. I immediately hit a major snag with the DLNA server. NG's support answer for ANY problem they didn't understand nor know how to recreate, you have a bad router, we'll RMA it. JUST LIKE TODAY!!! I cost me $15 USD to send it back. New one came, it wasn't new, it was a refurbished, AND had the same problem. Only then did Support work on the problem in earnest. However they tried to close it as they couldn't recreate it and I refused... just like the crap I went through with SMB 1 problem, stall, point fingers. Little did they know I was no dummy with a DLNA server. I knew HOW to read the SQL catalog file. Dumped it to show them the problem of duplicate entries and entries that would not open the file... Case stayed open for 2 months with little or no progress or e-mails to me. Eventually I was told it would be fixed in the next release in a week or so... and it wasn't! A few releases more and it was fixed... painful to be sure.

 

Oversight of the programmers is questionable, and has been for a long time. This is NOT new. The problems that happen are new. If it is with something everyone uses and MUST have, the noise ramps up here. What percentage of people use the USB drive capability? I'd say low based on the number of complaints about it. How many use Wifi, almost all I'd say, and problems there show here in a big way.

 

Everything is relative.

 

Let's face it, routers compared to OS's are simple. They have limited tasks and hardly any things that attach (s/w) to it but they can have many many devices attaching. However those devices all work the same. Sure, if your router doesn't support AC speed and you have an AC only device you might blame the router. A USB drive is tricky, clearly some don't work (I think if they work in a PC the Filesystem in the router should be able to handle it, but it doesn't. An OS can be used upteen different ways, have all sorts of h/w with different drivers to work with, and programs can do a lot of different things.

 

So what does that mean to me? Once the f/w is solid and shipped with the router, it should just work. Find a missed testing problem, fix it. Here though is where the problem starts. New features come along, one of those being a SECURITY fix. There are no simple fixes that an inexperienced programmer might be able to make possibly. Add new Feature (usually listed in the README file), same thing. I see that as the problem. Program testing method... I'm sure the 'new' code/feature is tested. Is there a total operational REGRESSION test done? It doesn't seem so.

 

I feel things like the Access Control/Attached Device function should be an easy fix. It seems to be ignored? Why? Don't know, but I'm guessing it isn't that important as it doesn't hinder operation of the router. Those are the problem (and there seems to be many) that is getting the attention now.

 

Of my soapbox.

Message 9 of 18
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Master

Re: Attached Devices List


@RNASguy wrote:

 

* With IPv6 and IoT soon home LANs will have an avalanche of connected devices. NG had better get on the stick or be left behind.


You might never see the 'avalanche'. Why? Each wireless radio is limited on the NG Residential routers to 32 devices... (https://kb.netgear.com/24043/How-many-clients-can-you-connect-wirelessly-to-a-NETGEAR-router). On top of that, the ISP speed with be distributed over those devices if all active... have the effect of slowing the speed down on each device. Tri-bands, 96 devices vs. 64 for a dual band. Need faster CPU's and chipsets, and probably commercial h/w. There is a difference between connected and active, but NG doesn't seem to care, 32 per SSID...

Message 10 of 18
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Apprentice

Re: Attached Devices List

@IrvSp I think we are pretty much on the same page here. Your point about the code module for one feature that is used across the line, not being owned by the person doing the code for a specific router does ring true. But bottom line, I come to judge a company by how they treat their customers, and how they develop their products, and the score is not coming up too well for the router division.

 

There is a lot of mfg hype in the router segment, esp as it relates to marketing to gamers. And, it seems NG has fallen deeply into it, I would guess for competitive reasons. So, attached devices, menu clarity, and other UX issues are not on the radar for gamers, ping time, bandwidth being front and center.

 

A quick sidebar: About the middle of 2013 I bought two NG 516 NAS boxes. This was shortly after they introduced their OS6 to run the boxes. It was a bit of a rough haul. I was posting reviews with negative issues and calling NG support trying to get the boxes to run smoothly.

 

I one point I received an email from the CTO (Chief Technology Officer) at NG, after some back and forth to establish that he really was the CTO at NG, and who I was, he put me in touch with the Director of Product Development for Storage. To cut to the chase, they really were interested in smashing bugs, and making changes to the UI for a better UX. So for several months I had occasion to be on conference calls with the product dev director and the guys actually doing the code. They would send me test f/w, even a test box full of drives to ring out.

 

The point here is that they cared, and wanted to make a better product.

 

So yes, it is not easy or productive to pint fingers. But, management is responsible for the corporate culture, and the balance between technical excellence and marketing. Sad to say but the scale seems to be tilting to marketing currently.

 

I’ll get off that soap box now.

bc
R7800 w/v1.0.2.62
Nighthawk X4S AC2600 WiFi Router

Message 11 of 18
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Apprentice

Re: Attached Devices List


@IrvSp wrote:

@RNASguy wrote:

 

* With IPv6 and IoT soon home LANs will have an avalanche of connected devices. NG had better get on the stick or be left behind.


You might never see the 'avalanche'. Why? Each wireless radio is limited on the NG Residential routers to 32 devices... <sniped> On top of that, the ISP speed with be distributed over those devices if all active... have the effect of slowing the speed down on each device. Tri-bands, 96 devices vs. 64 for a dual band. Need faster CPU's and chipsets, and probably commercial h/w. There is a difference between connected and active, but NG doesn't seem to care, 32 per SSID...


@IrvSp What you say is true.  

But consider this: mfgs are going full speed with delivering IoT stuff, both useful and frivolous. (My new washer, dryer, and oven all have WiFi radios.) And, don't get me started on security with these gizmos. Not only is there a 32 device limit per radio, the reserved IP list is limited to 64 addresses (as per a discussion with tech support.)

 

Couple this with poorly thought out access control, and the future looks grim for the consumer that starts to buy heavily into stuff with WiFi connectivity. So yes, it will require faster CPUs, and perhaps even segmenting the bands with several radios. But forget commercial APs and LAN management, that stuff will be only for the high end homes where installation and contract service is handled by a company to automate the house. The average home owner will be trying to juggle the WiFi jungle on connectivity, and left to wonder why it all doesn't work.

 

I just hope NG has some stuff in the pipe line to handle it.

bc
R7800 w/v1.0.2.62
Nighthawk X4S AC2600 WiFi Router

Message 12 of 18
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Master

Re: Attached Devices List

@RNASguy, well with NEW products they do care. Bad press on something new, big problem. Older products, well, like I said, look at the other vendor forums. No different in subjects. Bad reviews and major problems on Gaming routers, poof, you'll lose business in a hot market. Don't forget, those gaming routers have DUMAS OS on them. Dumas people are in the forums.

 

There is a big difference in 'awareness' by NG between new products and old ones.

Message 13 of 18
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Master

Re: Attached Devices List

@RNASguy,, with respect to IoT stuff, yeah, in the future (who knows that time period though) they will overrun the home router (as we know it) capabilities. The real question is 'when' will it be the average user though. Every 'new' technology spawns new businesses. PC created computer repair shops. Cell phones created phone and screen repair shops. At the same time radio and TV repair placed disappeared. Both because prices to repair were so high, and the level of technology needed to repair it. It became cheaper to replace than repair.

 

ISP's will probably be the first to institute that type of service needed in a home, connecting everything. The do it now, they will supply the router and connect everything. Cost, usually $5/mo. Others when they buy a new house they will have the h/w installed and devices connected included in the price.

 

Meanwhile manufacturers will need to create the h/w that can do it. At some point 10Gbps speeds will be the norm, and that means many more devices can be connected without deteriorating services...

 

Rigth now I've resisted to install some camera's and a doorbell. If I had security service though they would be doing it and connecting to my Wifi as they know how to do it. Heck, I've got a Keurig that connects to my wifi to report back to them some usage data and can be updated when needed. I don't even know how often it is active... See it isn't the number of devices that are connected that is the root of the problem, it is the number active at the same time and how much data they required when active.

 

DHCP can hand out way more IP Addresses than can be used, when would one know they hit a 'wall'? At least with Reserved addresses you'd know when you can't do anymore. I can almost see homes with cascading Access Points, each with 64 or 96 devices funneling into another one and another. ISP speeds better be able to handle that load. Subnets to subnets... until nothing works.

Message 14 of 18
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Apprentice

Re: Attached Devices List


@IrvSp wrote:

 <snipped>

I can almost see homes with cascading Access Points, each with 64 or 96 devices funneling into another one and another. ISP speeds better be able to handle that load. Subnets to subnets... until nothing works.


Smiley LOL Heart

 

bc
R7800 w/v1.0.2.62
Nighthawk X4S AC2600 WiFi Router

 

Message 15 of 18
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Aspirant

Re: R7800

My Attached Devices page is almost empty, showing no devices. The Chrome Dev tools shows: 


08:39:42.419 QOS_list_device.htm:1 Uncaught SyntaxError: Invalid or unexpected token
at XMLHttpRequest.xmlHttp.onreadystatechange (QOS_list_device.htm:144)

 

Is this useful?

 

Any hope of any updates from Netgear?

 

Erik

 

 

Model: R7800|Nighthawk X4S AC2600 Wifi Router
Message 16 of 18
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Master

Re: R7800

You posted to an almost 3 month old thread. Unlikely that many people will look at it.

 

I'd start a NEW thread with some subject that was meaningful, like R7800 Browser GUI error. Might get a Netgear moderator to look at it.

 

I'd also try another browser as well. Some browsers could have errors due to not being able to handle everything or in some cases there is code if the prior statements should fail. Even today, MS's IE can display pages that Firefox has problems with.

Message 17 of 18
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Aspirant

Re: R7800

Model: R7800|Nighthawk X4S AC2600 Wifi Router
Message 18 of 18