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Tutor

160Mhz for Mesh?

I know the Orbi 6 AX6000 doesn’t support 160mhz currently. Could it ever (is this a hardware limitation or firmware)?

I ask because I have gigabit internet and see some routers do 160Mhz and get top speeds closer to or in excess of 1000mbps — on my AX6000 I’m capping around 800mbps sitting near the router, presumably because this is the close to the observed max speed at its 80Mhz band.

Are there any mesh devices (not just Netgear) that do 160Mhz, or is this only found in stand-alone single point routers?
Message 1 of 23
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Tutor

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Okay — so I see another thread where it’s mentioned the 160mhz band is part of the 802.11ax standard. This may be true, but then why do some AX standalone Netgear routers clearly say 160MHz support whereas that’s nowhere to be found for the AX6000 Orbi?

I’m assuming since it’s listed as AX6000 there will never be an intention of having a software option to use the 160MHz band. Has this been confirmed?
Message 2 of 23
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Apprentice

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Because the AX Orbis don't support 160mhz channels on the user available bands. The backhaul channel is 160mhz and it runs at 2400 mbps. There's not many AX clients that currently run on 160mhz channels (some laptops), nothing on iOS. 

Message 3 of 23
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Luminary

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

 


@Rogelio1 wrote:

Are there any mesh devices (not just Netgear) that do 160Mhz, or is this only found in stand-alone single point routers?

I know the Asus ZenWifi AX that has two 5 GHz bands, the second has 160 MHz channel bandwith and by default is used for the wireless backhaul up to 4800 Mbps.

But thanks to the configuration settings available, each of the 3 bands (2.4 GHz + 2 x 5 GHz) can be used as the wireless backhaul, so the 2nd 5 GHz band can be devoted to wireless clients.

Moreover, if using a wired backhaul, all the 3 bands can be used by wireless clients.

 

 

Message 4 of 23
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Tutor

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Doesn't support it on user available bands (as in, not implemented in firmware... or not supported by hardware)?  I would think since the two 5GHz radios are identical in hardware, and since the one dedicated to backhaul is operating at 160MHz channel width, that the other radio dedicated to the actual client-end broadcast would similarly be capable of broadcasting at 160Mhz width.

Message 5 of 23
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Apprentice

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Depends on the 5ghz radios that are used. It may be a firmware update or they can't do 160mhz because of hardware. I'd ask Netgear. 

 

Message 6 of 23
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Tutor

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Can somebody clarify the radio situation in the ax6000. I’m looking at this table and narrowing to spatial streams:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQXoEYLGWrR1aGyGaTXOOaDQSPLfeC4rv70KRFuRP6eZ5fL-Ku_Y...

From what I understand 80mhz AC is capped at 866mbps on a 2x2 radio (2 spatial streams). This is reflected by speed tests in my iPhone X which only has 2x2 AC mimo radios and so i get around 600mbps next to the router (due to overhead / transmission loss).

Is the AX6000 basically 12 radios — 4 streams (or 4x4) with three broadcasts, 1 at 2.4Ghz and 2 at 5Ghz? If this is correct, can somebody point to where on the table represents the max speeds for this router.

Also, can somebody explain what the heck “HT80 with mimo” means on the new 2020 iPad Pro — it’s clearly wifi6 but I can’t translate this into discerning what the max rate is on the table above (I.e how many spatial streams — if it’s 2 or 4).
Message 7 of 23
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Guru

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

https://www.netgear.com/images/datasheet/orbi/RBK852.pdf


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK853 v3.1.16.6(Router Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK50, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 8 of 23
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Tutor

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Still can’t discern form the specs what the Max number of client side streams is. It says 1024QAM MU-MIMO and 8 internal antennas. Does that mean 4x4? (4 up and 4 down)?

Specs also don’t indicate anything about 80 vs 160mhz.

Most devices are 2x2 Mimo but I do see some 4x4 (rarer). I think there will be more in the future but want to understand if the ax6000 can stream to a 4x4 client or if it can only do 2x2.
Message 9 of 23
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Guru

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Most clients are only 2x2. Something to confirm with the Mfr of client devices. 

Heres the specs of my AX-11000 router:

https://www.asus.com/ca-en/Networking/ROG-Rapture-GT-AX11000/specifications/

They do list 160Mhz for this product. 

For for most speeds 1733Mbs and above, 160Mhz is needed I believe. 

 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK853 v3.1.16.6(Router Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK50, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 10 of 23
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Tutor

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

So then is the ax6000 Orbi capable of transmitting 4x4 on the 5ghz ssid (non backhaul) broadcast ?
Message 11 of 23
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Luminary

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Apparently no, max transfer rate on 5 GHz bands should be 2400 Mbps (2x2 ??), both for users and backhaul.

 

4x4 for 5 GHz AX = 4800 Mbps

Message 12 of 23
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Star

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

WIFI 6 at 80Mhz (Orbi RBK852) for a 4x4 configuration will max at 2400Mb/s for both clients and the Orbi Backhaul.

600Mb/s (80MHz, 1 spatial stream)  - Max of 2400 Mb/s for a 4x4 Configuration

1200Mb/s (160Mhz, 1 spatial stream) - Max of 4800 Mb/s for a 4X4 configuration

 

This review mentions the Orbi RBK852 currently lacking 160Mhz support.

https://dongknows.com/netgear-rbk852-orbi-wifi-6-system-ax6000-review/#Triband_WiFi_6_but_no_support...

 

Although other mesh systems have 160Mhz support and a higher potential maximum speed, there are numerous reports that these systems still won't connect at 160Mhz due to limited # of channels and regional restrictions on their use, and still connect at 80Mhz.

 

Most Wifi 6 clients are still 2x2 configurations, so will connect at a maximum speed of 1200Mb/s for the Orbi AX.

 

 

Message 13 of 23
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Tutor

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Still not getting how their math on advertising adds up. Each of the 5ghz bands are allegedly capable of 2400mbps so if what you’re saying is it can only do 80Mhz 2x2 that doesn’t add up. Either it should be able to do 4x4 at 80Mhz or 2x2 at 160mhz in order for them to advertise 2400mbps per 5ghz band.

How is that 2400mbps calculated if what you’re saying is theoretical max or 1200mbps?

Is that shady advertising of 1200 up + 1200 down? When I connect to the Orbi on a new dell yoga laptop with a 2x2 mimo AX card it says linkrate of 1200mbps in the Orbi app. Am I correct in assuming the AX6000 can’t achieve a download theoretical max of greater than 1200 mbps?
Message 14 of 23
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Luminary

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Here it's possible to find the max speeds of all the wifi protocols:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ckfrx8lHCQuYKEiu6F-XUFAygobckSdFLTwGj1EpE_Y/edit#gid=0

Message 15 of 23
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Tutor

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Thanks. Yeah I saw the same numbers on the other link I posted. It says 1200 for 2x2 and 2400 for 4x4 at AX speeds. (@80mhz that is)

If both 5Ghz are rated at 2400 (Both backhaul and actual Broadcast) I would have to believe the broadcast is 4x4 if it’s 80Mhz and they are making the claim of AX6000 (1200 @2.4ghz Broadcast+ 2400 @5Ghz broadcast+ 2400 @5Ghz Backhaul). Thoughts?

Do any AX 5ghz 4x4 client cards even exist? The intel Ax200 is only 2x2 but does support 160mhz. I cannot find any AX cards that do 4x4.
Message 16 of 23
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Star

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

From all I have read the broadcast is 4x4, for each of the bands on the Orbi RBK852

 

"Performance of the industry leading Orbi Mesh Wi-Fi Systems is improved by adding 1024 QAM with a 4x4 Wi-Fi 6 backhaul, increasing the speeds, coverage and capacity of this dedicated wireless link between the Orbi router and satellites.  It does this by maintaining the 4x4 wireless backhaul of the previous generation Orbi router, but bumps it to Wi-Fi 6 (802.11ax) for a theoretical link of 2.4 Gbps compared to 1.73 Gbps on the older Orbi RBK50"

 

The only 4x4 WIFI 6 clients I'm aware of are other Routers, Access Points, or extenders, not adapters.

 

For example, I'm using the Netgear EAX80 4x4 WIFI 6 Extender as a media bridge connected wirelessly to the Orbi RBK852.  This allows devices wired to the EAX80 Media bridge to get closer to WIFI 6 speeds compared to wireless AC 2x2.

 

https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/wifi-range-extenders/EAX80.aspx

Message 17 of 23
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Luminary

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

 

 

From duckware.com:

Why haven't devices switched to 4×4? Because (1) there is (currently) no compelling need for that speed today (there is no app that 'requires' 300 Mbps to function) and (2) the increased speed is not worth the tradeoff in reduced run time for battery powered devices (4×4 takes more power, and for battery powered devices, runtime is FAR more important).

 

 

Message 18 of 23
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Tutor

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

The power draw for phones on 4x4 may be significant, but I don’t think for laptops it would be (compared to screen power draw and CPU); power usage for 4x4 would also be irrelevant for desktop PC’s.

I’m on Comcast’s gigabit Ethernet and am using the CM1100 with 802.11AD link aggregation to the AX6000 which actually lets me pull in beyond gigabit — a speed test on the QoS of the router shows it’s getting 1.2gbps. When I use an AX 2x2 client right in front of the router (Lenovo Yoga laptop), it only pulls in 800mbps (on the link rate max of 1200)... so losing 400mbps. If I could get my hands on a 4x4 card, I should find it maxes out my internet connection (however that would only be if I was connected to the router... I have the other satellite hard wired and so that would cap devices connected to it at 1gbps and not the 1.2gbps).

I hope we start to see 4x4 client wireless cards come into the market — with gigabit speeds and beyond being offered by ISPs, it starts to make sense to want to have parity on WiFi transmit speed, albeit at increased battery consumption in laptops and desktops. They could even allow turning off 4x4 in favor or 2x2 if Not connected to a power source within the drivers / settings.
Message 19 of 23
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Guru

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Users should see beyond 1Gb speeds on wireless. Yes it takes specific HW and ISP services need to also support speeds on the down beyong 1000Mbps. Also remember for wired speeds, you'll not see anything much over 900Mpbs on the wire. LAN Ports are rated at 1000Mpbs so thats the max. I usually see around 930Mpbs on mine. 

 

1200+2400+2400=AX6000. This is a marketing number of the combination of the connection speed rates of the wifi radios. These are connection rates only between the Orbi system and conneted devices which differ from actual thruput speeds and will not be the same. 

 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK853 v3.1.16.6(Router Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK50, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 20 of 23
Highlighted
Tutor

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

I get the max speeds can never be attained. When I sit right next to the router on my 2x2 AC iPhone radio with a max linkrate of 866, I get 600. 70-75% of the max link rate is pretty good on average.

I guess my question now is more so around what prospect is there of getting a client WiFi card, adapter, etc. that will have a 2400mbps linkrate that can connect to this AX6000 Orbi.

It seems like since 160mhz is out of the question (because this isn’t permitted on the broadcast / non-backhaul band of the AX6000 from what I’ve read), then that only leaves the option of 4x4 on AX 5ghz 80Mhz if we’re to believe 2400mbps is attainable. I see none of these client facing cards, so maybe 2400mbps on the broadcast band is more advertising mojo than realized speeds (if no devices exist).

Edit: I should clarify that I see wireless AP’s that do 4x4 AX at 80Mhz... I’m referring to a client device. I see some 4x4 AC cards that will do 2100mbps but none that are AX; also don’t see any external USB 3.0 devices with 4x4 at all
ASUS PCE-AC88 AC3100 4x4 802.11AC PCIe Adapter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H9QMOMY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_nQ1WEbPA2Y29R
Message 21 of 23
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Luminary

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

Actually there aren't yet also wifi 6 USB dongles at all...Smiley Sad

Message 22 of 23
Highlighted
Guru

Re: 160Mhz for Mesh?

AX is still fairly new and I believe still hasn't been approved fully from it's draft forum. So seeing any AX supporing PCI or USB adapters maybe on the drawing boards still and Mfrs havn't gone to do anything until the AX standard gets fully approved and certified. I heard some rumors it was supposed to be this year. With what happening in the world currently, this could be delayed. 


@Rogelio1 wrote:
I get the max speeds can never be attained. When I sit right next to the router on my 2x2 AC iPhone radio with a max linkrate of 866, I get 600. 70-75% of the max link rate is pretty good on average.

I guess my question now is more so around what prospect is there of getting a client WiFi card, adapter, etc. that will have a 2400mbps linkrate that can connect to this AX6000 Orbi.

It seems like since 160mhz is out of the question (because this isn’t permitted on the broadcast / non-backhaul band of the AX6000 from what I’ve read), then that only leaves the option of 4x4 on AX 5ghz 80Mhz if we’re to believe 2400mbps is attainable. I see none of these client facing cards, so maybe 2400mbps on the broadcast band is more advertising mojo than realized speeds (if no devices exist).

Edit: I should clarify that I see wireless AP’s that do 4x4 AX at 80Mhz... I’m referring to a client device. I see some 4x4 AC cards that will do 2100mbps but none that are AX; also don’t see any external USB 3.0 devices with 4x4 at all
ASUS PCE-AC88 AC3100 4x4 802.11AC PCIe Adapter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H9QMOMY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_nQ1WEbPA2Y29R

 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK853 v3.1.16.6(Router Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK50, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
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