SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
I have a need to use a use a switch in between the SXR80 router and SXS80 satellites. Customer wants to use an MS510TX, MS510TXM, or MS4300-16X for the switch. Will multiple VLANS (admin, guest, IoT, and office) work in this scenario? I’m guessing this would be using the satellites in AP mode. The MS510TX(M) switches support IP routing, but being Smart Pro switches lack much of the other managed switch functionalities. What is the best way to use the SXK80B3 mesh product with one of the multi-gig switches? The customer needs >1Gbe LAN connections. Would the M4250-12M2XF be a better multi-gig switch in this use case? Please feel free to be specific on how to connect the products all together. The customer has a CM2000 cable modem that has a 2.5Gbe port. The customer has gigabit Internet connection that is over provisioned to 1.5 gig. I told the customer the SXR80 only has one 2.5Gbe port. The customer is rather upset that it doesn’t have two… one for WAN duties and one for LAN to connect to the satellites. Why hasn’t Netgear added this yet… or at least an SFP+ port or two on the SXR80 and SXS80’s?
Please feel free to suggest other product groupings.
Are there no multi-gig routers with multiple multi-gig ports? Is the SXR80 the only VLAN aware router at Netgear?
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
@kc6108 wrote: I have a need to use a use a switch in between the SXR80 router and SXS80 satellites.
So you intend to create a wired backhaul - OK
@kc6108 wrote: Customer wants to use an MS510TX, MS510TXM, or MS4300-16X for the switch.
Nothing wrong with these ideas. Depends of course on how many wired MultiGig and 10G devices they want to connect to this new wired network enviornment, beyond of the just three Orbi Por 6 devices.
@kc6108 wrote: IWill multiple VLANS (admin, guest, IoT, and office) work in this scenario?
Yes, of course. Needless to say, the VLANs and ports must be configured accordingly, either using the local UIs, or using Insight.
@kc6108 wrote: I’m guessing this would be using the satellites in AP mode.
Well, the wired backhaul can be used with the Orbi Pro WiFi 6 system in router as well as in AP mode.
@kc6108 wrote: The MS510TX(M) switches support IP routing, but being Smart Pro switches lack much of the other managed switch functionalities. What is the best way to use the SXK80B3 mesh product with one of the multi-gig switches?
Don't think you need inter-VLAN routing initially anyway. What "features" do you think are missing on the Smart Managed Pro switches in general, and specifically on the MS510TXM? When considering any Orbi Pro this is unlikley an enterprise network with the related staff to set-up, maintain, and operate isn't it?
@kc6108 wrote: The customer has a CM2000 cable modem that has a 2.5Gbe port. The customer has gigabit Internet connection that is over provisioned to 1.5 gig. I told the customer the SXR80 only has one 2.5Gbe port
Yeah, sometimes it's the job for the system integrator to show the limitations and unpopular answers.
Comes the question for how long the over-provisioning will retain overall - eg. of the ISP does add more bandwidth hungry customers ot the headend for example.
You might consider configuring a LAG using the two designated LAN ports to the new added switch. For concurrent usage (by more than just one client on the [W]LAN), this would allow to make use of the over-provisioned bandwith. If however the customer is speedtest blinded and unhappy if he does not get this speed on a single computer on the [W]LAN, well.
@kc6108 wrote: The customer is rather upset that it doesn’t have two… one for WAN duties and one for LAN to connect to the satellites.
Well, nobody ever promised something different - this is well visible as part of the marketing and the product specs, including the Data Sheet.
@kc6108 wrote: Why hasn’t Netgear added this yet… or at least an SFP+ port or two on the SXR80 and SXS80’s?
Different scope - Orbi Pro WiFi 6 is intended mainly as a throw-in Mesh system, being on a wired or wireless backhaul ... not as a platform for a MultiGit/10G networks.
@kc6108 wrote: Are there no multi-gig routers with multiple multi-gig ports?
Sure these exist, the market is still very niche. Especially where other technology is used, like XGS-PON ... where using own routers is becoming a very difficult thing, and then not allowing seemless IPTV and VoIP ...
@kc6108 wrote: Is the SXR80 the only VLAN aware router at Netgear?
No, however there isn't much beyond their and the BR500/BR200 with plain GbE only.
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
That is not what I wanted to hear. Maybe the MS510TXM or a fully managed switch would work. I really need to get my hands on a SXK80, MS510TXM/UP, and XSM4316PA/B to fully vet the new Orbi Pro line myself. I have had so many clients asking about the SXK80 along with Netgear's new multi-gig switches. 1Gbe connections just aren't fast enough for some of my clients. 2.5/5Gbe ports are becoming a must feature for a lot of my clients. Netgear's software implementation of LAGs are okay, but not what the client needs a lot of the time.
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
Afraid, have no SRK80 system available - simply unable and unwilling to buy each kit of $$$$ hardware just to assist here in the community (not paid, sponsored, or backed in any way by Netgear - not even a Happy New Year card with a thank you...)
@TonyTest and @kc6108 you can please try this on the MS510[any] or for the sake on any other Web or however manageable switch:
Enable STP [Switching -> STP] (Note: This is network wide, not limited to the VLANs used by the SRK80 system)
STP Configuration Revision Level 32768 (that's a prio in fact allowing the consumer and classic Orbi Pro to prefer the wired over the wireless backhaul)
Disable the L2 Loop Protection [Switching -> L2 Loop Protection]
...or make it behave like a non-managed "dumb" switch...:
Disable STP [Switching -> STP]
Enable Forward BPDU while STP Disabled
Disable the L2 Loop Protection [Switching -> L2 Loop Protection]
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
Using a switch between may not be supported by the Pro models still. It didn't work for me or my clients in the past. Notice how the Orbi Pro models aren't listed in this KB...
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
Just FYI...
[Switching -> L2 Loop Protection] isn't an option included in the original MS510(TX/TXPP) models. They added that to the MS510(TXM/TXUP).
I haven't purchased any of the SXK80 Orbi Pro systems either. Nor the newer MS510TXM/TXUP models. I have spent countless hours trying to get the previous Orbi Pro systems working... or trying to get them to meet the specific needs of clients.
This time I have reached out to Bret at Netgear simply asking what topologies they have tested in lab. It took me years to deploy the previous Orbi Pro systems and BR500s I purchased. Those products were/are so lacking. I'm willing to test use cases for Netgear, but I'm not going to purchase all the equipment ahead of time this go around.
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
@TonyTest Have you tried different Multicast combinations [Switching -> Multicast]? I think I remember reading somewhere that some IGMP options have caused issues when using a switch in between the Orbi router and its satellites (wired backhaul).
I have sent @BretD a private message asking what topologies that Netgear have actually tested in their lab regarding this subject.
It would be nice if Netgear would test this scenario with several of their smart and fully-managed multi-gig switches. Perhaps with their fully-managed multi-gig M4300-16X (XSM4316PA/XSM4316PB), as well as, with their newer MX510TXM/MS510TXUP and original MX510TX and MS510TXPP smart multi-gig switches. It looks as if the newer MS510 switches have basically the same feature set as the original models, but also include Insight support like the Orbi Pro SXK80's. Maybe that's the key to getting this to work at this point? I'm grasping at straws.
Any help from Netgear would be awesome though. Your solution of using a non-managed gigabit switch in order to get wired-backhaul to work with a switch in between the router and satellites is not going to fly with my clients. We are talking about deploying Netgear's newest/lastest Orbi Pro's marketed with multi-gig support here. These devices are NOT cheap. Netgear needs to get their multi-gig smart switches to work in the scenario/topology we are talking about.
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
Crippling the network IGMP and other multicast capabilities (for live IPTV, for UPnP SSDP or Bonjour discovery among others) can't be an option on this product class.
Considering Netgear does promote using Insight for the management of the Orbi Pro and Orbi Pro WiFi 6 product which should allow integrated management of the complete network including the newer MS510 variants launched in January for example (e.g. for the VLAN configuration) it's more than odd there is zero documentation or assistance for such a basic set-up. Had a Zoom meeting yesterday talking to a high tier Netgear marketing person (thank you for your time!), and had this point on the list of discussed items.
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
RBK850 is orbi wifi6 router for home， And I had try RBK850 and satellites connect to Netgear switch MS510TXPP before, And It can work for wired backaul. But SXK80 ( Orbi Pro) routers for business can not work in the same network diagram.
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
As I have mentioned before, I don't have an SXK80 Oribi Pro system on hand... and as @schumaku has mentioned, with the SXK80, there are multiple VLANs at play.
From the manual it looks like there are four pre-defined VLANs:
• LAN 1. This LAN is set as the default VLAN profile (default IP address is 192.168.1.1). • LAN 2. This LAN is set to the employee VLAN profile (default IP address is 192.168.20.1). • LAN 3. This LAN is set to the IoT VLAN profile (default IP address is 192.168.30.1). • LAN 4. This LAN is set to the guest VLAN profile (default IP address is 192.168.40.1). • LAN 5. You can set a custom VLAN profile for this LAN (default IP address is 192.168.50.1).
The manual also mentions needing to make changes to RIP, port to be trunk vs access, etc.
I wouldn't expect this to be a plug and play solution, but I do think Netgear would have already tested all of this in their lab already. The SXK80 is a business solution, and they would have known the need to use a switch between the router and satellites would be a common use case. We just need Netgear to provide better documentation for this type of scenario/topology.
Re: SXK80 2.5Gbe Wired Backhual with Switch in between
What VLANs are actually configured and in use on the Orbi router and satellites by default? My guess is 1, 20, 30, and 40. Maybe even 50. There is that 5th VLAN that you can customize for the 5th LAN port that I mentioned earlier (there are one 2.5Gbe and four 1Gbe LAN ports, so it makes sense that they would allow for five VLANs).
Have you added any of these VLANs (20 for Employee, 30 for Guest, and/or 40 for IoT) on the MS510TXPP?
Per the Orbi manual, you need to set the LAN ports you are using for wired backhaul to Trunk in the Orbi router, even the satellite as well I think. I'm thinking you probably need to do all of this same stuf for the ports on your MS510TXPP that you are using to connect the Orbi satellites and router.
The MS510TXPP has IP routing turned on by default. I'd turn that off since the Orbi router is VLAN-aware and has a DHCP server for each VLAN. Make sure those DHCP servers are enabled in the Oribi router of course (for any VLANs in use anyway). The MS510TXPP may have IP routing, but it definitely doesn't have DHCP server capabilities.
Hopefully I'm making sense here.
This is what I'd do:
Add these four VLANs in [Switching -> VLAN -> Advanced -> VLAN Configuration] (20 for Employee, 30 for Guest, 40 for IoT, and 50 for Custom or whatever it's named in the Orbi router).
Change ports 5-8 to 'T' (for Trunk) for each of the four VLANs (including for VLAN 1, if necessary) you just created in [Switching -> VLAN -> Advanced -> VLAN Membership] assuming you are using those four ports to connect an Orbi router and three satellites using the four multi-gig ports on that switch. That's how I do it. I'd be using LAN port 2 (configure it for WAN duties instead of the LAN 1 2.5Gbe port) on the router to connect to the modem and LAN port 1 (the 2.5Gbe port) on the router for wired backhaul.
Change the 'VLAN Member' and 'VLAN Tag' for ports 5-8 to be '1, 20, 30, 40, 50' in [Switching -> VLAN -> Advanced -> Port PVID Configuration]. I'd change 'Ingress Filtering' to be 'Disable' for all ports and LAGs while you're in there. That's typically the default for all of the Smart Managed Pro switches... I think they realized this mistake cause I noticed they changed it to 'Disable' in the newer MS510TXM/UP switches.
I'd also turn off 'Routing Mode' in [Routing -> IP]
Just how much does the new MS510TX(M/UP) supporting "full Insight management" (as of firmware v1.0.1.5) get us?
It seems to me that if those switches are in fact fully supported by Insight, not only should we be able to get them to work as I'm requesting (using wired backhaul with one of those switches in between the new Orbi Pro router and its satellites), but we should also be able to utilize the switch's full potential (i.e. use ACLs for InterVLAN Routing for printer sharing, etc). Would you agree?
Also, since the Orbi Pro router is VLAN-aware, the setup I'm describing would, in many ways, would be comparable to using a BR200 (or BR500), an MS510TXUP, and WAX610s.
This is what my clients are asking me for. Well, actually they want to be able to use one of the few smart-pro/fully-managed multi-gig switches that Netgear offers (i.e. the MS510TX, MS510TXPP, or M4300-16X)... not just one of the newer MS510 models. But I'll take what I can get.
Just how much does the new MS510TX(M/UP) supporting "full Insight management" (as of firmware v1.0.1.5) get us?
Not sure where this citation is coming from. That's not how Insight works. There are select features available for an Insight managed network which can be used over the selection of routers, switches, and APs. In no mean Insight does provide a fully featured control access to all bells and whistles.
It seems to me that if those switches are in fact fully supported by Insight, not only should we be able to get them to work as I'm requesting (using wired backhaul with one of those switches in between the new Orbi Pro router and its satellites), ...
Bringing up an Orbi Pro WiFi 6 system and the switch(es) for adding VLAN and assigning to the ports should be a snap - just as it is for switches, WAC/WAX, and the router.
I never had the pleasure to set-up a test environment with Orbi Pro WiFi 6 alone, and then in combination with a matching switch. Yes, I prefer the classic approach. But I would be happy to test it - with Netgear's support, backing, and a direct contact to device engineering. Specifically for the Orbi Pro WiFi 6 and switch combo, I would expect some specific terms and features (like a simple one-click definition or selection for the wired backhaul satellite ports).
...but we should also be able to utilize the switch's full potential (i.e. use ACLs for InterVLAN Routing for printer sharing, etc). Would you agree?
I would agree, however - switch based inter-VLAN routing isn't part of the Insight features, and so there is no ACL config (which is in it's full extent ways beyond of whee I see Insight). Be aware that the BR[2|5[00 firewall configuration must be done locally on the device as of writing.
But ... when I read the "simple" things like "just" a printer sharing ... well, today's modern mobile and dynamic printer driver configs require printer discovery (UPnP SSDP resp. Bonjour), so basically Multicast ... a feature which does not exist, neither on the switch interVLAN routing nor on the BR[2|5]00. Now that will make even more fun for allowing/controlling visibility/denying the printer access. So you could "print" if you use say IP:lpr or IP:9100 or IP:lpp ... this is not what the User 2021 want to hear. At least not my customer base.
This is what my clients are asking me for. Well, actually they want to be able to use one of the few smart-pro/fully-managed multi-gig switches that Netgear offers (i.e. the MS510TX, MS510TXPP, or M4300-16X)... not just one of the newer MS510 models.
Netgear has started with Insight on the purpose designed cloud switches like GCxxxx[X]XP]P!PP], then select Smart Managed Pro were added to the cloud management portfolio. The two new MS510TXM/TXUP are to my knowledge the first to Smart Managed Pro models coming with Insight cloud support from scratch.
The Managed switch families are, just like the Smart Managed Plus (lack of resources and capabilities), not intended for cloud management. What I'm completely missing is the availability of the XS 10G models for cloud management ... the highest end for a "core" switch is are the two new MS510's.
Fair enough? I would like to hear and learn what other prospect say Orbi Pro WiFi 6, MS510xxx, and in general customers for Insight Pro provider managed (that's what we use) think about. In my prospctive, the Orbi Pro WiFi 6 management - and specially the monitoring capabilites - are definitively not there where I would expect to see it (like wireless clients by satellite not just "per Orbi").
