Re: Intermittent DNS Errors and WiFi Issues

bullm00n · ‎2021-04-12

@Ace321 wrote:
I installed 3.2.18.1 and seem to be stable so far. Can anyone share a specific site that consistently show DNS errors. I get random errors and not able to test with 3.2.18.1 unless I wait for couple of days.

Have not seen that version for the RBR850 yet.

Ace321 · ‎2021-04-13

Sorry to report that DNS error is still there with 3.2.18.1.

energie · ‎2021-04-13

It really makes you wonder how bad the QA department of Netgear actually is. I guess they have accepted this issue as acceptable, because I really can't imagine Netgear not knowing about this. What I think is the problem: their firmware is such a mess that it takes too much time to fix it. Therefore the problem is also not getting acknowledged, as this would uncover the fact that developers/Netgear have messed up. And now simply have moved on to developing newer products.

vajim · ‎2021-04-13

@energie wrote:
It really makes you wonder how bad the QA department of Netgear actually is. I guess they have accepted this issue as acceptable, because I really can't imagine Netgear not knowing about this. What I think is the problem: their firmware is such a mess that it takes too much time to fix it. Therefore the problem is also not getting acknowledged, as this would uncover the fact that developers/Netgear have messed up. And now simply have moved on to developing newer products.

and to add fuel to the fire, there are folks in this forum who will talk all around the firmware issues trying to make out they don't exist. In the end, many users in here have unknownly become beta testers.

Ace321 · ‎2021-04-13

If I enable IPV6 6to4 Tunnel, I do not see these DNS errors.

Garwoofoo · ‎2021-04-13

@energie wrote:
What I think is the problem: their firmware is such a mess that it takes too much time to fix it. Therefore the problem is also not getting acknowledged, as this would uncover the fact that developers/Netgear have messed up. And now simply have moved on to developing newer products.

This is almost certainly the case. QA departments are generally well aware of a product's faults. However fixes are prioritised by management, and in this case it appears they are prioritising smaller, easier updates (does anyone even know what the new firmware actually does?). That's not the fault of the QA department.

What I genuinely don't understand about this whole thing is that people in this thread are reporting that the exact same DNS problem was reported and fixed in their corporate line of routers last year. That suggests Netgear know the underlying cause, so what is stopping them applying the same fix to their home range of products? I can't believe the firmwares are radically different.

msinex · ‎2021-04-13

I tried the 6 to 4 tunnel over the weekend, and started seeing the errors come back to the same devices after about 24 hours.

I personally think this has something to do with them integrating the Armor service and that being a priority. Once they have our hardware purchase they aren't really focused on getting us to be repeat purchasers because consumer frequency of this sort of purchase is way to low. They are looking at ways to monetize us further via ongoing payments for things like Armor. If they have fixed this issue on the coporate side of things, I'm betting they haven't addressed it on this side because of some sort of issue with that software. It's not based on much besides the fact they continue to push it so much and I'm assuming they are more interested in keeping that stream going then fixing any other issues.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-13

Just curious do you have Armor enabled or disabled or have you ever had it enabled at any point?

@msinex wrote:
I tried the 6 to 4 tunnel over the weekend, and started seeing the errors come back to the same devices after about 24 hours.

I personally think this has something to do with them integrating the Armor service and that being a priority. Once they have our hardware purchase they aren't really focused on getting us to be repeat purchasers because consumer frequency of this sort of purchase is way to low. They are looking at ways to monetize us further via ongoing payments for things like Armor. If they have fixed this issue on the coporate side of things, I'm betting they haven't addressed it on this side because of some sort of issue with that software. It's not based on much besides the fact they continue to push it so much and I'm assuming they are more interested in keeping that stream going then fixing any other issues.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-13

Was Armor enabled any?

Was a factory reset and setup from scratch performed since v1 was applied?

@Ace321 wrote:
If I enable IPV6 6to4 Tunnel, I do not see these DNS errors.

ed-win · ‎2021-04-13

I solved my issues by buying three ASUS ZenWiFi AX (XT8). Work great and have a lot of configuration options I was missing in the Netgear Orbi. Will not be buying Netgear again.

Good luck to the rest of you still on the Orbi AX.

msinex · ‎2021-04-13

No, I have never had Armor or Circle enabled. My point is that there has to be some things in the firmware that allow Armor to operate regardless of whether you enable it. I'm no expert, but I'm assuming there are some things in that connection that impact how the DNS operates. Perhaps them fixing the DNS issue on the consumer side impacts Armor functionality in some way. If so, perhaps they would rather screw a small group of people who have already laid down the money for the hardware then risk impact to a likely larger group of people that they are collecting ongoing revenue from.

BriceLB · ‎2021-04-14

I solved my issue by :

- adding a 3rd satellite to my network

- upgrading the RBR850 and the 3 RBS850 to Firmware Version: V3.2.18.1_1.4.14

- switching the Orbi in AP mode

- using a peplink Balance 20X router 😉

Now I got a stable wifi network with Orbi Wifi 6 mesh performances and a decent router doing the DHCP server, the DNS server, Firewall, load balancing, failover (between cable connection. And LTE), etc.

arlomike · ‎2021-04-14

All you needed to do to solve the DNS issue is to put Orbi into AP mode and install a router. The 3rd satellite and firmware update were not needed.

BriceLB · ‎2021-04-15

The firmware update fixed the daily reboot at random time of the Orbi RBR850 and RBS850. I rarely had them up for more than 48 hours. That was a real nightmare. It would crash and reboot in the middle of a Team meeting or while watching a Netflix. We went on holidays for a week and without any human activity on the network, it rebooted twice !

The third satellite was key to lower wireless backhaul network drops that also required either waiting +15 minutes or a reboot of the whole setup to get connection up. I have a fairly large house (actually two that I joined) and 3 floors. So now I have a satellite doing the relay between two others and I haven't had any connection drop since 36 hours !

My cable operator drop the connection at night weekly but without notice for maintenance on their network. And they also have long downtime when some company cut the fiber to install a trainline or something else. Adding the peplink Balance 20X router was a fix for removing DNS issues AND add failover of my 400 Mbps cable connection with a backup 150 Mbps LTE connection.

Netgear has an Orbi that allow failover on a LTE but's is a small wifi 5 model so I picked a peplink Balance 20X ($399 on Amazon).

It's not a consumer router, it's a fairly advanced router that has many smart features : solid dns server, L2TP IPSec VPN access, remote management via InControl, SpeedFusion connection bonding, etc.

With it's 5Ghz backlink the Orbi AX is still the best Wifi 6 mesh on the market so in combination with a peplink router for failover and advanced routing, I have a state-of-the-art Wifi meash solution. The total cost ($1400) is still competitive when I look to other comparable solutions.

rgautier · ‎2021-04-18

My PC is PHYSICALLY wired to the Orbi - I've overridden my PC DNS to point straight out to Google DNS due to the errors I get from the Orbi...but I wanted to upload this benchmark to demonstrate just how slow, compared to an actual local caching DNS server (my cable modem) it is in comparison. (This doesn't account for errors/rejected lookup issues.)

rgautier · ‎2021-04-18

Image didn't upload right..

tak1313 · ‎2021-04-20

I PERSONALLY think Netgear has fudged with dnsmasque for the purpose of data harvesting - to track all the websites users visit for data collection.

The reason why they can't seem to fix the issue, TO ME, is that it likely breaks their data collection. They can't figure out how to implement dnsmasque properly without breaking their data collection process.

Dnsmasque is a pretty straightforward implementation that no one else seems to have problems with unless the base dnsmasque code has problems.

msinex · ‎2021-04-21

I've reached the end of my rope with this DNS issue. I love the performance of the router outside of the DNS issue, and since I can't return it I'm thinking the best route forward is to throw it in AP mode and put another router in. That seems utterly ridculous in my mind to solve such a basic glaring error, but I feel it's cost effective to at least give it a try.

It sounds like others have gone down this route. Can you provide what router you used that behaved well with the Orbi? I'm not looking for something super complex, just stable and won't impact the speed. Would like to avoid Netgear products for that for obvious reasons. Thanks for the help!

tak1313 · ‎2021-04-21

@msinex wrote:
I've reached the end of my rope with this DNS issue. I love the performance of the router outside of the DNS issue, and since I can't return it I'm thinking the best route forward is to throw it in AP mode and put another router in. That seems utterly ridculous in my mind to solve such a basic glaring error, but I feel it's cost effective to at least give it a try.

It sounds like others have gone down this route. Can you provide what router you used that behaved well with the Orbi? I'm not looking for something super complex, just stable and won't impact the speed. Would like to avoid Netgear products for that for obvious reasons. Thanks for the help!

I've been using my trusty Asus RT-AC68U, which is what i used before going mesh (yes, I know Asus has AiMesh, but wanted to try something different).

It's been working great - all the features and controls that Orbi lacks (QOS) or wants to rip people off for (Armor/parental controls), without the DNS issues that apparently Netgear's coders are not capable of/don't have the skill to fix.

I change routers every few years anyway, even if there's nothing wrong. In the switch from Asus, as stated earlier, I wanted to try mesh because I was using a TP-Link extender with the Asus for a certain part of my house.

So in a few years, when it's time to try something new, it won't be Netgear. Too bad, I USED to use Netgear stuff many years ago ala the WNDR4500 and was completely satisfied with it, which is why I gave Orbi a shot.

msinex · ‎2021-04-21

This has been a constant issue for many of us through multiple firmware iterations, so I don't think it is a firmware update issue.

msinex · ‎2021-04-21

Thanks @tak1313 , do you use it in combination with the Orbi mesh in AP mode?

tak1313 · ‎2021-04-21

@msinex wrote:
Thanks @tak1313 , do you use it in combination with the Orbi mesh in AP mode?

Yes - 68U as the router > Orbi in AP mode connected to the LAN port of the Asus (wireless backhaul to the satellite).

The one disadvantage if you're the type to contantly looks at what's connected to the satellite versus main router signal is that you have to log in to Orbi's page to see - the list of connected devices on the router (Asus in this case) will always show all devices as a wired connection.

My service is only 100mpbs so the Asus does not introduce any speed issue, but if you have a gig service, you may want a router with a bigger WAN input (2.5gbe, etc.), or you won't get TRUE gig service out of the LAN ports - though most people wouldn't even notice, because the NEED for TRUE gig service tends to be in the mind for most consumer users.

I don't remember what thread I posted my OPINION in, but my OPINION is that Netgear's coders don't have the skill/can't fix the DNS issue because I THINK they fiddle with dnsmasque to do data harvesting of IPs users visit (rather than using the vanilla/raw dnsmasque). They can't figure out a way to make dnsmasque work properly AND have their data harvesting cake too.

tak1313 · ‎2021-04-21

Forgot to mention - turn off the router's wifi/radios since you're using Orbi for wifi. Also, I use the LAN ports of the Asus for the three things I keep wired (two Synology's and a printer) - the fourth LAN port being used for the Orbi.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-21

If you want to do something on the cheap, Ubiquity's ER-X router works wonders. Wired router only. Have had my Orbi system behind one of those. Works great. There pretty inexpensive as well.

tak1313 · ‎2021-04-21

@FURRYe38 wrote:
If you want to do something on the cheap, Ubiquity's ER-X router works wonders. Wired router only. Have had my Orbi system behind one of those. Works great. There pretty inexpensive as well.

I also have an Edgerouter Lite (a little more expensive than the ER-X (Edgerouter X)). It would actually be faster for this purpose - especially with hardware offloading enabled. If you have gig service, the Edgerouter 4 will be even faster. Went with my trusty Asus, as I like the UI (cooler graphics), and it does everything I want from the router side, especially running Merlin.

Edgrouter (like MikroTik) can be a double edged sword if you're a home user and not a network geek. They have GREAT network information/control having a history in enterprise networking, but if you're not familiar, it will be a STEEEEEEP learning curve to get everything out of them.

FYI if you want to go this route, at this time, I believe the MikroTik hEX (RB750Gr3) goes for a little less than the Edgerouter X, and is just as capable.

If you're an open source kinda guy, you can also run OpenWrt on the Edgerouter.