RBR850 Continually Reboots after Firmware Upgrade V7.2.6.21_5.0.20

[vader716]

I have an RBR850 with two satellites.  The two satellites are using wired backhaul here is the setup

• ISP-->Router/FW (DHCP)-->Managed Switch-->RBR850, RBS850 and RBS850 all on separate ports on the switch
• RBR in AP mode
• I can access all 3 devices via their web interfaces on local 192.168 addresses. 
• All have connected devices on both 2.4 and 5.0 bands

I have upgraded to the newest firmware V7.2.6.21_5.0.20 on all three.  (The RBR kept rebooting so I factory wiped all three and started over but now I'm thinking it wasn't directly the firmware)

RBSs are both stable and remain up.

Here is where it gets crazy to me:

If I plug the RBR into the switch with the yellow "Internet" port on the RBR it is stable but via the web GUI it shows no satellites connected and only a dozen or so devices

If I plug the RBR into the switch on one of its 4 LAN ports (how it was working for a year prior to firmware upgrade) it will continually reboot.  I can see this via a continual ping test and loss of GUI Web access.  However, when it is up it shows  both satellites connected and 30+ devices.

I'm walking away for a while with it plugged into the "Internet" port, at least its up and running but feels wrong.

Anyone seen something similar or have suggestions? 

[FURRYe38]

The Internet port is required in router or AP mode for the RBR to work correctly. 

What brand and model is this switch? 

Be sure that the RBS are ethernet connected to the back for the RBR or with the switch connected to the back of the RBR then RBS connected to the switch in this configuration:

https://kb.netgear.com/000051205/What-is-Ethernet-backhaul-and-how-do-I-set-it-up-on-my-Orbi-WiFi-Sy... 📡 ‌‌🛰️

[CrimpOn]

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@vader716 wrote:

I'm walking away for a while with it plugged into the "Internet" port, at least its up and running but feels wrong

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We are seeing more posts on the forum lately about Orbi routers in AP mode with all units connected directly to a switch that is between the Orbi router and the ISP router.  As @FURRYe38 commented, Orbi  routers expect that Orbi satellites will be connected directly to the router, either (a) using a 5G WiFi connection with a hidden SSID, or (b) using an Ethernet connection.  It does not expect that satellites can be found through the WAN port. 

Having everything connected to the switch (ISP router, Orbi router, Orbi satellites, possibly other user devices) creates an IP subnet where "lots of things work"***(see note), but the router cannot gather information from the satellites because "they're not connected": not through WiFi and not through one of the LAN ports.

Moving the switch from "in front of" to "in back of" the Orbi router will create a working solution:

• With the Orbi router connected directly to the ISP router with the WAN port, everything will flow through the Orbi router.
• With satellites connected to the Orbi through the switch, traffic will flow in a way that the Orbi expects.
• User devices connected ot the switch will be accessible from everywhere because this remains one IP subnet.

Because this is a managed switch, it would be possible to manufacture a similar solution using port based VLANs.  i.e.

• In addition to the WAN connection to the switch, also connect one router LAN port to the switch.
• Create a port based VLAN consisting of the ports that the router and the satellites are connected to.
• This will result in all traffic from the satellites passing through the switch to the Orbi and then to the rest of the network.

Personally, I would just move the switch.  Unless, of course, the Orbi is not physically located near the ISP router and the switch.  Then things are a bit more complicated because there is probably only one Ethernet cable from the switch location to the Orbi router location. (there is solution for that involving VLANs as well, but it requires another swtich.)

*** Things "work" because the Ethernet hardware in the ISP router, Orbi router, Orbi satellites, and the switch "learn" where to reach devices by their hardware MAC address.  Ethernet switch modules have internal address tables, often capable of thousands of MAC addresses.  In an IP subnet, data packets are addressed by the hardware MAC of the machine they are intended for.  It goes something like this:

• Send a packet to IP xx.xx.xx.xx
• OK, is this on our IP subnet, or is it "somewhere else"?
  • If it is on our subnet, do I know the MAC address?  If not, use ARP to find it.
  • If it is not on our subnet, address it to the gateway and let the router deal with it.
• Send the packet.

All this happens at the hardware level. User programs think only in terms of IP addresses.  The hardware takes care of all the details.

[plemans]

You can't (without issues) do it the way you have it set. 

It should go modem/gateway--->RBR (into its wan port---->switch/satellites. 

If you're going to put the switch before the RBR, then the satellites need to direct connect to the RBR's lan ports. Or a 2nd switch used connected after the RBR for the satellites to connect it (if you're needing more ports)

[CrimpOn]

One situation that has come up on the forum is adapting network gear to existing in-house wiring. It is now common to find a house "pre-wired" with Ethernet jacks located in many rooms of the house, each with a single Ethernet cable running to a patch panel in some location.  Often this location was chosen because at the time it seemed a good compromise between cost, ease of installation, and other factors.  The installation often included coaxial cable to bring the Internet Service Provider signal to the patch panel.  (Optical fiber is a relatively recent development. Often WiFi was limited to 2.4G which has greater coverage area than more modern 5G - and now 6G.)

From posts on the forum, it has become clear that some users do not find the patch panel location suitable for their WiFi router.  They want to place the WiFi router somewhere else and also locate satellite units in other locations.  Alas, there is only one Ethernet cable from the patch panel to each location. While it may have been routine to install cable when the walls were open, retrofitting more cables can be a nightmare (expensive, disruptive, etc.)

This can lead to situations like this discussion.  Place the ISS router and a switch at the patch panel and connect everything in the house to the switch.  Netgear's Orbi product, however, is not designed for this.  (Maybe other products are?)

There was a discussion on the forum about how to use one Ethernet cable to carry:

• The ISP connection from the patch panel to the router WAN port, and
• The router connection from LAN ports to satellites

The concept is illustrated with this diagram:

The managed switch at the patch panel has two port based VLANs:

• VLAN1 connects the ISP router and any miscellaneous devices around the house.
• VLAN2 connects the Orbi satellites to the swith

There is one "Tagged" VLAN port, which carries VLAN1 and VLAN2.

At the WiFi router location, there is a second managed switch with two port based VLANs:

• VLAN1 carries traffic to the router WAN port
• VLAN2 carries LAN traffic destined for Orbi satellites

There is one "Tagged" VLAN port, which carries VLAN1 and VLAN2 traffic.  In addition, if the user desires, miscellaneous devices can be connected to this second switch as Port Based VLAN (1 or 2. Doesn't really matter.)

The "magic" comes from VLAN tagging.  Once the Ethernet switches have used ARP to discover where everything is, they know which port to use to reach every device.  None of the devices themselves are aware of the VLANs.  If a packet comes into the switch on a VLAN1 port, it can only go to other VLAN1 ports. (Same for VLAN2)  So, packets from the ISP router will never go directly to Orbi satellites, because they are on VLAN2.

[vader716]

I think this is close to my solution minus the VLAN tagging which I can implement.  Apologies for the rudimentary diagram but here is the current network topology.

I do not understand why I should/would put an ORBI in front of either the first managed switch in the basement or worse yet the first device after the ISP.  

With ARP and IP addressing I'm unclear why RBS 1 and 2 can't reliably find RBR.  

As of now all three APs are working and passing wireless traffic but RBR can't "see" the RBSs in the App or Web GUI.

I can VLAN them but it too seems odd to me.

You'll notice the purple dotted line was one answer given.  When that happens the RTR goes pink and all traffic is lost on that AP.  Feel like that is creating a network loop and bringing a halt to traffic.

[vader716]

I guess I could relocate the RBR to the basement (hurting wireless coverage) but if it is in AP mode and just relaying traffic what is the technical reason it has to be in front of an actual managed switch. Unless there is just some limitation in the Orbi to find other devices on the network.

[vader716]

I guess I don't understand the "Orbi expects" part

I posted the diagram and you aren't far off from the situation.

I can phyiscally relocate the RBR and could technically put the RBR between the Firewall/Router and managed switch but no way can I get the other two RBSs directly connected.

I just dont understand (it's me and ignorance I'm sure) why with one IP domain 192.168/24 and switches these Orbi devices can't find each other.

RBS should say "Hey I'm looking for RBR, this IP or MAC" managed switch says "I don't have it, ARP anyone?"...the other managed switch says yea here.... and traffic flows.  Sort of the way IP and Ethernet was designed.  No?

Appreciate the time you took to respond. 

[schumaku]

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@CrimpOn wrote:

Operating a very similar config for the normal standard router configuration and testing.

Connecting an MR60 with the WAN on a DMZ VLAN and IP subnet, plus the LAN on a dedicated VLAN and subnet (with IPv6 operational in Auto mode) to connect one or two MS60 on an access port for the LAN VLAN - and all hell does break loose on my all of my networks.  8-/

[CrimpOn]

Thanks for posting the diagram.  Very helpful.  I am guessing that the green lines are manufactured Ethernet cables with RJ45 plugs on each end and the red line is Ethernet cable terminated at one end in an RJ45 jack on the wall and at the other end in a patch panel.

Remember, the network is stable, but Attached Devices is a problem:

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@vader716 wrote:

If I plug the RBR into the switch with the yellow "Internet" port on the RBR it is stable but via the web GUI it shows no satellites connected and only a dozen or so devices

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The network functions because it is an IP subnet.  If you are willing to ignore the Orbi Attached Devices problem and use the primary router to administer the network, leave everything alone.

Attached Devices does not display the satellites and devices connected to them because the Orbi router, even in Access Point mode, will not communicate with satellites through the WAN port.  The solution is to connect the satellites to the LAN side of the router.

Just moving the router to the basement will not make this possible because of the upstairs satellite.  In addition to one Ethernet cable connecting the router to the basement, there is one Ethernet cable connecting the upstairs switch to the basement, which will also require VLAN isolation to reach the router.

There are two solutions:

• Install a second Ethernet cable from the basement to the router to connect a router LAN port to one of the Port based VLAN ports on the basement switch.  This will avoid purchasing another managed switch so that the single cable between basement and router can carry both WAN and LAN traffic.
• Purchase another managed switch to place near the router so that the single Ethernet cable to the basement can carry both VLAN1 and VLAN2.

The cable would cost less than another switch.  Depending on the building structure, installing another cable might be almost trivial (or a nightmare!)

No matter which solution is chosen, the upstairs switch also needs to have VLAN1 and VLAN2 implemented and the port linking the upstairs switch to the basement switch needs to be a Tagged VLAN (also on the basement switch) so that both regular traffic and the router-satellite link can use the single Ethernet cable.

Netgear could have programmed the router differently, but "it is what it is".

[FURRYe38]

Manages switch are known to cause problems for Orbi systems and the connecting RBS. Router or AP modes. Especially for ethernet connected RBS. Some users have been able to make them work with managed switches by disabling all IGMP Protocols and Green Ethernet features on thise switches. However when those don't work, un-managed switches are recommended in between the RBR and RBS for best connection and operation for ethernet connected RBS.

This is the commended configuration for ethernet connected RBS if you have a LAN swtich in the mix:

https://kb.netgear.com/000061710/What-is-an-Ethernet-backhaul-connection-and-how-do-I-set-it-up-on-m...

NG GS-105/108v4 and GS308v3, D-Link DGS-105/108 and HP ProCurve 1400 series non managed switches work for Orbi systems.

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@vader716 wrote:

I guess I could relocate the RBR to the basement (hurting wireless coverage) but if it is in AP mode and just relaying traffic what is the technical reason it has to be in front of an actual managed switch. Unless there is just some limitation in the Orbi to find other devices on the network.

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