Re: RBS850 - How to prevent 'wired' backhaul via Sonos

PTWA · ‎2020-08-16

My Orbi RBR850 and two RBS850 with Sonos Boost connected to RBR850 runs perfect. To increase SonosNet coverage outdoor I connected a second Boost to RBS850. This temporarily did run perfect, boosting SonosNet as expected... until RBS850 decided to reconfigure automatically and use the very slow SonosNet as 'wired' backhaul replacing the Netgear fast wifi backhaul. How do I force Netgear RBS850 to solely use its very fast wifi backhaul ? (and prevent changing to the slow wired backhaul)

Chuck_M · ‎2020-08-16

I had this exact issue about a year ago with an additional boost I put on the network.

My speeds for that network segment dropped to under 10Meg (which is the limit of the boost).

How many boosts do you have? How many speakers? How far apart are the speakers and boosts?

Just to validate: Are your Sonos speakers on SonosNet or Wifi? (I recommend moving them to their own network)

PTWA · ‎2020-08-16

Alle speakers are on SonosNet, currently 2xBoost in network, one wired to RBR850. Amount of speakers more than 10, physical distance of some is close. SonosNet shows a few yellow spots in the matrix, with additional Boost connected to RBS850 it shows alle green. Would be perfect if this RBS850 does not switch to wired backhaul.

Chuck_M · ‎2020-08-16

For lack of a better description, I found that the boost was "backfeeding" the network... and when it did, it limited the bandwidth to the capability of the boost (10MB).

Check the ports on the back of the boost -- I believe there is one that is specifically "IN" and one that is "OUT" -- perhaps you have the ethernet cable plugged into the wrong one. Can you try that and tell us the results?

PTWA · ‎2020-08-16

Thanks, with the Right port of Sonos Boost connected it worked well more than a day until RBS850 did reconfigure to wired backhaul. With the Left port of Sonos Boost connected it did the same within an hour. I did not manage the RBS850 to stay on wifi backhaul. The mentioned RBS850 serves outdoors, I need the wired boost connected to this RBS850 for the same.

Chuck_M · ‎2020-08-16

Regarding your constellation of Sonos speakers... Are any "hard wired"? I see you have two Boosts..., but are any other speakers connected via ethernet?

PTWA · ‎2020-08-16

Only one Boost and no other Sonos device is connected by wire with Netgear (RBR850). The second Boost serves the SonosNet wifi mesh network and is not wire connected.

Chuck_M · ‎2020-08-16

So the second Boost is not connected to the network via ethernet? It is stand-alone?

Please read this article (if you havent seen it already)

https://freetime.mikeconnelly.com/archives/6050

Mikey94025 · ‎2020-08-16

@Chuck_M wrote:
Please read this article (if you havent seen it already)

https://freetime.mikeconnelly.com/archives/6050

Wow! 🙂

PTWA · ‎2020-08-18

The article is great and exactly explains why it is important to have all BOOST devices wire connected tot the router. I do achieve the mentioned SonosNet improvement initially when connecting the additional BOOST devices tot the RBS850 satellite, until it decides tot reconfigure from wifi backhaul tot wired backhaul. The article hints at the preference of an ethernet switch between BOOSTs and router. I am not an expert in this domain, do cannot measure network data packages, nor its types, however I am running An experiment with ethernet switch between BOOST and satellite. Not sure of this makes sense, but it is stable now for 12 hours, showing all green in the SonosNet matrix. Will keep you posted with results.

Chuck_M · ‎2020-08-18

I look forward to hearing about the results of that; Please make sure you tell us the type of switch (brand/managed/unmanaged) -- and preferably any kind of network diagram. of how you have it configured under your Orbi.

When this occured in my LAN I ultimately removed the offending Boost without replacement since I had enough SONOSNet coverage.

By the way, are you running S2 on your SONOS system? Since updating to S2, mine has really performed well with Orbi RBR850 and -- although I may have talked myself into it -- I believe the sound quality has dramatically increased.

PTWA · ‎2020-08-18

I do run S1 for 5 devices wireless without SonosNet. I do run S2 for 15 devices wireless with SonosNet via BOOST, one Sonos Move via wifi, and additional BOOSTs according earlier discussion. Target of discussion is to improve outdoor (incl. garage) coverage without digging for ethernet.
For my experiment I used unmanaged NetGear GS105. According expectation it solved the issue until within 36 hours this time, RBS850 reconfigured automatically from wifi tot ethernet backhaul. Would be great tot have a setting (telnet?) that prevents the backhaul to reconfigure automatically. In general RBS850 should not prefer a slow wired connection over a fast wifi connection.
Any insights in possibilities of settings for RBS850 ?

PTWA · ‎2020-08-24

For a further experiment I did remove the wired BOOST from router RBR850 and instead I wired the BOOST to a first satellite RBS850 and I wired a second BOOST to a second satellite RBS850. In this setup the second RBS850 automatically re-configured and its backhaul did no longer use wifi. So, again no succes. Looking forward to a solution.

Chuck_M · ‎2020-08-25

Sonos Boosts are -- supposedly -- just a Sonos speaker "guts" without the speaker -- making it a bidirectional relay.

You can achieve the exact same desired effect by replacing the boost with a Play One.

I wonder if the issue is actually a Sonos issue and not an Orbi one. Have you engaged Sonos about this at all?

Can you try one more experiment?

Move a Play one temporarily to where the Boost is -- hard wired -- and disconnect the boost. The play one SHOULD feed SonosNet (allowing other speakers to work) -- but does it drag down backhaul?

Then do the same experiment without it being hard wired -- e.g. remove the ethernet cable from the Play One.

PTWA · ‎2020-08-29

Two further experiments and a conclusion. When replacing the wired BOOST by a wired speaker, the network matrix shows a clear difference between the first and the matter. A wired BOOST is classified root bridge and speakers get priority to wirelessly connect the BOOST. A wired speaker may stay secondary or tertiary node, and other speakers do not wirelessly connect the wired speaker with priority. The backhaul issue exists with wired BOOST devices as well as with wired speakers. In a second experiment I wired a speaker in the S1 network that does not run SonosNet. This keeps the Orbi WiFi backhaul alive. My conclusion from experiments is that wired SONOS devices shall all be wired to the same Orbi device. There is no difference in wired to router, or wired to satellite. A wired BOOST is predictable root node. In my network I limit to one BOOST connected to RBS850 satellite that serves outdoor. This guarantees the outdoor SONOS speakers to connect to the BOOST with priority. Resulting connections show all green in the network matrix. Sonos outdoor runs smooth and stable. Would still Like to add a second BOOST to a second satellite. But Happy with current state.

Chuck_M · ‎2020-08-31

Nice rundown.... some interesting conclusions there that I wasn't aware of.

This is most significant:

@PTWA wrote:
My conclusion from experiments is that wired SONOS devices shall all be wired to the same Orbi device.

Have you changed the root node at all?

Look at this article about Sonos on another vendor's mesh system (and how they solved it)

https://en.community.sonos.com/setting-up-sonos-228990/setting-up-a-sonos-system-and-can-t-connect-t...

Does anyone know if (and which version) Spanning Tree Protocol is operating/implemented on Orbi AX6000 systems?

A good article on that and Sonos:

https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/sonos-and-the-spanning-tree-protocol-16973

SONOS ZonePlayers use 802.1D Spanning Tree (STP) for loop prevention between wired ZonePlayers and the wireless SonosNet Mesh Network. The Spanning Tree running on ZonePlayers is compliant with IEEE 802.1D and can inter-operate with other IEEE 802.1D and IEEE 802.1w compliant devices. Note: IEEE 802.1w is an updated version of the Spanning Tree protocol called Rapid Spanning Tree. The two types of STP protocols are compatible and 802.1w should revert to inter-operate with 802.1D devices (such as Sonos). Therefore, 802.1w Ethernet switches will work with Sonos ZonePlayers

PTWA · ‎2020-09-02

In case changing the root node refers to SONOS advconfig capability, I did not experiment with this.

Now I have to report that today the satellite with wired BOOST stopped working. The Orbi app showed a Network diagram with the satellite having a red dot instead of a green dot, and still a dotted line for wifi backhaul. Power off and on with BOOST wired did not resolve the issue. The satellite white light kept blinking. After removing the wired BOOST and power cycle the satellite, it was ok again. Adding the wired BOOST again resulted in the same dead state of the satellite. Router and other satellite continue unhindered.

Now I moved the BOOST, and wired it directly to the router. I have no longer any SONOS device wired to any satellite. Waiting for the result...

I may have to withdraw my earlier conclusion that it does not make a difference whether a BOOST is wired to a router, or to a satellite.

Given the current state, and my outdoor SONOS no longer shows green in the SONOS matrix, I may experiment with a second BOOST not wired but assigned root bridge via the advconfig capability.

Question is what happened to the satellite, ending up dead. It may stem from the satellite again switching from wifi to wired SONOS backhaul, but now even a slow path did not exist, since a second wired SONOS device was not in the network??? Just a (idiot?) guess... no clue how to debug this one.

Chuck_M · ‎2020-09-03

@PTWA wrote:
In case changing the root node refers to SONOS advconfig capability, I did not experiment with this.

Now I have to report that today the satellite with wired BOOST stopped working. The Orbi app showed a Network diagram with the satellite having a red dot instead of a green dot, and still a dotted line for wifi backhaul. Power off and on with BOOST wired did not resolve the issue. The satellite white light kept blinking. After removing the wired BOOST and power cycle the satellite, it was ok again. Adding the wired BOOST again resulted in the same dead state of the satellite. Router and other satellite continue unhindered.

Now I moved the BOOST, and wired it directly to the router. I have no longer any SONOS device wired to any satellite. Waiting for the result...

I may have to withdraw my earlier conclusion that it does not make a difference whether a BOOST is wired to a router, or to a satellite.

Given the current state, and my outdoor SONOS no longer shows green in the SONOS matrix, I may experiment with a second BOOST not wired but assigned root bridge via the advconfig capability.

Question is what happened to the satellite, ending up dead. It may stem from the satellite again switching from wifi to wired SONOS backhaul, but now even a slow path did not exist, since a second wired SONOS device was not in the network??? Just a (idiot?) guess... no clue how to debug this one.

I read in one of the listed articles that the boost had to be connected directly to the RBR (not a satellite) to avoid this loopback condition.

BucksCountyPand · ‎2021-01-27

Has anyone figures this out?

It's absolutely crazy to me that the RBS thinks that a connected device is a wired backhaul to RBR.

I have the same issue and it's driving everyone in the house absolutely crazy. Is there a way to force the backhaul path in Orbi so it connects to a specific IP address back to a specific RBR or RBS.

I have the same issue that after time or any type of internet flapping or instability the RBS reconfigures itself to shift from wireless backhaul to Ethernet backhaul via a hard wired Sonos speaker.

Current setup
FiOS to RBR
RBR wired to RBS1 to Arc and Sub
RBR wireless to RBS 1 to Sonos One
RBR wireless to RBS 2 to Sonos One

I have about 20 Sonos speakers on Sonos net

PTWA · ‎2021-01-27

Looking forward to any stable solution !
In the meantime I run S1 wireless and S2 SonosNet with two Boost devices that are both wired to RBR. All further Sonos speakers not hard wired. This setup runs smooth, however still it would be great to get rid of the long wire between RBR and Boost for Outdoor.

BucksCountyPand · ‎2021-01-27

Interesting...

I've noticed that my
hard wired Sonos ARC to RBS
hard wired RBS to RBR never experienced this issue. It's only when an RBS is wireless backhaul to RBR that I connect a Sonos speaker hard wired to RBS is when this issue happens

PTWA · ‎2021-01-27

I observe the same. To work around I hardwire Sonos devices only to RBR and do not hardwire Sonos devices to any RBS. As a result the wireless backhaul between RBR and RBS is stable.