Re: 5Ghz channels

Vorhilion · ‎2018-03-28

Hello,

I saw this topic here. But I would like understand why all upper 5Ghz channels are unavailabled for the clients.

In Europe, at least in France, we can use the next channels in 80Mhz :

36, 40, 44, 48
52, 56, 60, 64
100, 104, 108, 112
116, 120, 124, 128

So, we have 4*80Mhz available.

Why Orbi cannot do a channels distribution like this (or another order)?

36, 40, 44, 48 : choice of user to assign them to the Orbi base or satellite
52, 56, 60, 64 : choice of user to assign them to the Orbi base or satellite
100, 104, 108, 112 : choice of user to assign them to the Orbi base or satellite
116, 120, 124, 128 : dedicated to backhaul

With such a possibility, we can avoid signal noise from neighbours and from the other Orbi devices.

Because now, Orbi base uses the same channels as Orbi satellite(s), which is really not optimized.

And I have neighbours with same 5Ghz channels in use.

Can someone explain to me why all 52 to 128 channels are locked for users?

Vorhilion · ‎2018-03-28

I just saw this topic. Someone explains the limitations are also due to DFS.

It can be an answer, but then why? Since DFS is relevant for outdoor access points, not indoor.

Vorhilion · ‎2018-03-28

Thank you for your reply. I understand it.

But as an end user I expect to be able to tweak 5Ghz channels, like on other public hardware.

So I prefer to understand the reasons for the limitations before asking new functionnalities than other people also ask

SimonGT007 · ‎2018-09-20

Hi

I agree with all the points in this thread and submitted an idea to Negear to address this major product flaw. See https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/Please-provide-more-5GHZ-wifi-channel-option...

Please give it Kudos and try and get Negtgear to look at it as it's not even been reviewed yet - Negear keeping asking for product feedback but very very slow in even responding to ideas and so far only 1 idea submitted (out of hundreds) has been implemented.

It definately impacts my 5HGZ performance as I live in a very congested 5GHZ area which means even when I'm only 20 feets from the main Orbi router my iPhone keeps switching to 2.4GHZ signal as it can't lock onto the 5GHZ from the Orbi as too many other signals near by! Which defeats the object of having mesh network as I get worse speeds near the router than I would with my old Apple Airport Extreme!

SimonGT007 · ‎2018-09-20

Follow on from my last post - looks like we need at least 179 kudos points to get this to the top of the idea list. So please if you see this thread and agree this is any issue worth fixing just click on Kudos. Personally I think there are much more marginal improvements on the idea list that would only benefit a small proportion of users, but fixing this issue would improve the product perfoirmance for everyone that lives in an urban area with congested 5GHZ usage.

Thanks for your support!

BrutusNL · ‎2018-12-20

Kudoed (is that even a word *grin*) and hope this gets a lot more attention, especially from Netgear.

FURRYe38 · ‎2018-12-20

Please feel free to post about this here:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/idb-p/idea-exchange-for-home

Good Luck.

@BrutusNL wrote:

Kudoed (is that even a word *grin*) and hope this gets a lot more attention, especially from Netgear.

CrimpOn · ‎2018-12-20

It appears (to me) that Netgear elected NOT to implement DFS in the Orbi. Check this out:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Orbi-Compatible-Smart-Plugs/m-p/1676535#M47405

It seems that 5G devices are supposed to monitor for radar signals when they select channel besides the ones Orbi is using. When they detect radar, they are required to change. Not being compliant is probably a "big deal" to the government. So, it's not a simple matter of adding frequencies to the table and letting the user select from them. There's a good chance that radar signals do not "look like" WiFi signals, so this programming may not be trivial. (sigh)

Would be interested to know if any other consumer 5G WiFi brands implement DFS. (Maybe they all avoid those channels as Netgear does.)

It also doesn't help us that 5G channels do not overlap, only as long as a person wants only a small bandwidth. Netgear gets 866MB bandwidth by combining all the available channels.

st_shaw · ‎2018-12-20

Orbi uses 80 MHz channel width on 5 GHz. There are only two non-overlapping non-DFS 80 MHz channels in the 5 GHz band. Orbi uses one for the backhaul and the other for client data. Unless you allow DFS, which it seems no NETGEAR routers do, there isn't really anything left to tweak. NETGEAR could allow you to choose to use 40 MHz or 20 MHz channel width, but the throughput would be 1/2 or 1/4 and people would then complain about slow speeds.

ekhalil · ‎2018-12-21

@st_shaw wrote:

......... Orbi uses one for the backhaul and the other for client data. Unless you allow DFS, which it seems no NETGEAR routers do, there isn't really anything left to tweak.

..........

I don't think this is completely true.

At least in Europe, the 40 MHz channels 151 & 159 are not allowed to be used (due to Band C licensing) so that leaves only one non-overlapping non-DFS channels according to @st_shaw's statement. I've never seen that my backhaul is using channels 149-161.

Orbi uses the DFS band for backhaul for sure. I can see that my backhaul is changing between DFS channels 100-144, which confirms that Orbi is applying the DFS regulation correctly. Seems that once Orbi detects radar signals on a certain channel it jumps to another channel, which is how DFS should work.

In fact, for my Router (which is located on the ground floor) I can see that Router's backhaul channel is jumping quite frequently between the channels, may be because it's exposed to radar signals more than the Satellite which is located in the basement. The basement rarely changes it's backhaul channels as I can see.

st_shaw · ‎2018-12-21

I'm not sure what you're saying isn't true. Here in the US, my Orbi is using 80 MHz channel 157 for the backhaul.

I suspect Orbi reserves the right to use DFS channels for the backhaul, if necessary, but it's behind the scenes and not something the user has access to adjust.

ekhalil · ‎2018-12-21

@st_shaw wrote:

I'm not sure what you're saying isn't true. Here in the US, my Orbi is using 80 MHz channel 157 for the backhaul.

.........

I meant the statement that "Unless you allow DFS, which it seems no NETGEAR routers do" 🙂

In fact, in Europe, only the DFS channels are being used for backhaul in Orbi!

I think that Orbi will select DFS channels also in the US if channels 149-161 (which are allowed in the US) are busy!

Those DFS channels -by definition- are not to be manually selected by users.

CrimpOn · ‎2018-12-21

I love discussions like this. Some people think Netgear has not implemented DFS in any routers; others assert their routers are exhibiting DFS behavior. (If ONLY Netgear engineers browsed the forums!) Perhaps once they know where the router is located, they adjust frequencies to match?

I am puzzled by ekhalil's comment that his router "changes backhaul frequencies" more often than his satellite. I had thought that the router and satellite have to be on the same frequency to communicate. So, if they change frequency, they would have to change together.

My WiFi Analyzer app shows an ARRIS on channel 132 somewhere nearby. I don't know how that squares with Netgear restricting itself and competing with all the other 5G devices.

ekhalil · ‎2018-12-21

@CrimpOn wrote:

.......

I am puzzled by ekhalil's comment that his router "changes backhaul frequencies" more often than his satellite. I had thought that the router and satellite have to be on the same frequency to communicate. So, if they change frequency, they would have to change together.

.......

Good question! 🙂

If you have Daisy Chain activated then each Satellite will start broadcasting it's own Backhaul Channel to allow other Satellites to connect to.

These Satellite's Backhaul Channels are independent of the Channels that are being used by the Router.

If Daisy Chain is disabled, then you will only see the Router's backhaul channel.

Please see the picture below showing my Roter and Satellite broadcasting at different channels with different bandwidths:

ekhalil · ‎2018-12-21

Please also have a look here:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Understanding-Orbi-Radio-Fronthaul-Backhaul/m-p/1671092#M46569

CrimpOn · ‎2018-12-21

That is a GREAT explanation. Thanks!

So, it appears that a configuration with only one satellite should turn off "Daisy Chain" so that the one satellite will not tie up 5G bandwidth for no reason?

Which app was used to produce the channel information?

ekhalil · ‎2018-12-21

@CrimpOn wrote:

........
So, it appears that a configuration with only one satellite should turn off "Daisy Chain" so that the one satellite will not tie up 5G bandwidth for no reason?

......

Correct!

@CrimpOn wrote:

.......
Which app was used to produce the channel information?

I use the built-in wifi analyser in my Macbook

Chuck_M · ‎2018-12-23

So "turning off daisy chain"... depending on who you talk to, you get "Tribal Knowledge" input that perhaps the setting is backwards on the configuration screen. (e.g. checked is actually off)

What is the authoritative way of ensuring daisy chain is turned off? (Is there something you can monitor to see the intended effect was made?

Thanks! Great discussions!

ekhalil · ‎2018-12-23

@Chuck_M wrote:

So "turning off daisy chain"... depending on who you talk to, you get "Tribal Knowledge" input that perhaps the setting is backwards on the configuration screen. (e.g. checked is actually off)

What is the authoritative way of ensuring daisy chain is turned off? (Is there something you can monitor to see the intended effect was made?

Thanks! Great discussions!

Please tick off Daisy Chain in the Advanced Wireless settings to disable Daisy Chain.

You can check that Daisy Chain is disabled by making a wifi scan. You should only see one "hidden" network (network with no SSID) using one of the upper 5 GHz channells with the MAC address of the Router.

If Daisy Chain is enabled you will see one hidden network for every Satellite as well, with the respective MAC addresses of every satellite.

ekhalil · ‎2018-12-23

@ekhalil wrote:

............

You can check that Daisy Chain is disabled by making a wifi scan. You should only see one "hidden" network (network with no SSID) using one of the upper 5 GHz channells with the MAC address of the Router.

If Daisy Chain is enabled you will see one hidden network for every Satellite as well, with the respective MAC addresses of every satellite.

This is what I meant:

If Daisy Chain is disabled, you will only see the Router's Backhaul in the above wifi scan. Notice the MAC address of the basestation in the wifi scan to see if it's the router or the satellite.

Chuck_M · ‎2018-12-23

Great response and makes total sense! Will try Christmas day when I open the second sattelite!! (I peeked!)

Thanks and happy holidays

ekhalil · ‎2018-12-23

@Chuck_M wrote:

Great response and makes total sense! Will try Christmas day when I open the second sattelite!! (I peeked!)

Thanks and happy holidays

Good luck, and happy holidays

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-25

@ekhalil wrote:

.......

Orbi uses the DFS band for backhaul for sure. I can see that my backhaul is changing between DFS channels 100-144, which confirms that Orbi is applying the DFS regulation correctly. Seems that once Orbi detects radar signals on a certain channel it jumps to another channel, which is how DFS should work.

.......

As mentioned, Orbi uses DFS channels for backhaul, when Radar signals are detected, Orbi will switch to other channels for backhaul.

To see the events when Orbi detects radar signals you can check this in Orbi log as follows:

Enable Telnet in the routers debug.htm page
Telnet to Orbi and enter the following command:
- root@RBR50:~# cat /var/radardetect.log
You will get printout similar to this:

Radar Detected at [Wed Jan 23 23:19:55 CET 2019 ] on channels [116,120,124,128]

Radar Detected at [Wed Jan 23 23:26:20 CET 2019 ] on channels [100,104,108,112]

Radar Detected at [Wed Jan 23 23:26:30 CET 2019 ] on channels [132,136]

Radar Detected at [Wed Jan 23 23:42:35 CET 2019 ] on channels [140]

Radar Detected at [Wed Jan 23 23:45:52 CET 2019 ] on channels [116,120,124,128]

Radar Detected at [Wed Jan 23 23:50:52 CET 2019 ] on channels [100,104,108,112]

Radar Detected at [Wed Jan 23 23:51:58 CET 2019 ] on channels [132,136]

Radar Detected at [Wed Jan 23 23:53:04 CET 2019 ] on channels [140]

Radar Detected at [Wed Jan 23 23:59:20 CET 2019 ] on channels [116,120,124,128]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:00:06 CET 2019 ] on channels [100,104,108,112]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:00:53 CET 2019 ] on channels [132,136]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:07:56 CET 2019 ] on channels [140]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:09:39 CET 2019 ] on channels [116,120,124,128]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:09:49 CET 2019 ] on channels [100,104,108,112]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:12:19 CET 2019 ] on channels [132,136]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:23:17 CET 2019 ] on channels [140]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:28:47 CET 2019 ] on channels [116,120,124,128]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:33:19 CET 2019 ] on channels [100,104,108,112]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:33:57 CET 2019 ] on channels [132,136]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:34:25 CET 2019 ] on channels [140]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:36:27 CET 2019 ] on channels [116,120,124,128]

Radar Detected at [Thu Jan 24 00:37:14 CET 2019 ] on channels [100,104,108,112]

CrimpOn · ‎2019-01-25

"No such file or directory". Looks like radar detection may be location dependent. My Orbi has no file in /var with that name, or anything close to it. (U.S.)

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-25

@CrimpOn wrote:

"No such file or directory". Looks like radar detection may be location dependent. My Orbi has no file in /var with that name, or anything close to it. (U.S.)

If you checked both in router and satellites then I guess that means no radar signals have been detected by your Orbi the past few days. I noticed that values for only the past 24 hours or so are stored.

My router has such a file but my satellite doesn’t, I guess just because the satellite is in the basement and is “protected” from radar signals.