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Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

I love my Orbi system (Router + 2 Sats) but the inability to force ethernet backhaul is such a pain.

If the power flickers, all devices reboot and will try to reconnect.

Since the router takes a bit longer to reboot, the sats will try the ethernet... timeout... switch to wireless.

Once the Router finishes booting up, it enables the ethernet and now I have multiple network loops completely clogging my network for about 30 minutes until the stars align.

I have some smart switches and if I enable loop prevention, the ethernet backhaul is never used.

There has got to be a way to avoid this....

 

 

 

 

Message 1 of 18

Accepted Solutions
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

 I did another emulated power cycle. ARP storm happened again with the RBS connected via ethernet with LAN switch, seems to go about 1 minute or a bit longer this time however stopped and the system continued working fine.

10_RBS50WiredBackhaul2RBR50_2ndPowerCycleNetworkActivityARPStormNoBrowserOpen.png

I thought maybe having the web page opened on the RBRs web page was contributing to this but no, happens with the browser closed. Seems that a power outage then back on will trigger the storm however only seems to last for about a minute then stops. 

View solution in original post

Message 16 of 18

All Replies
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

What Orbi model do you have?

What firmware version is loaded? 

What CAT# lan cable  are you using? CAT6 is recommended. 

Is there a lan switch in between the RBR and RBS?

What mode is the RBR in? AP or Router mode? 

 

RBS and RBR sync fully with Ethernet connected RBS. 

IF the RBS are failing to sync after a brown out then there is a problem that should be figured out. Forcing would not solve anything. Orbi RBS should reconnect via wireless as last resort or ethernet, IF, all is in good condition and configuration between the RBR and RBS. 

 

Never have seen this on any Orbi system after a brown out. 

 

 

Message 2 of 18
plemans
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

What system do you have? 

What firmware is on it? 

What modem/gateway is the router connected to?

 

I use a wired backhaul primarily and have a managed switch. I haven't had issues on any of my systems and I've used the 40 series, 50 series, 750 series, 960 series, and the SXK30 series. No issues with them and it looping. 

Message 3 of 18
CrimpOn
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!


@Ozymandias_EBON wrote:

If the power flickers, all devices reboot and will try to reconnect.


If this happens frequently, it might be worth investing in some small UPS units.  All of my network devices are powered through UPS to avoid just this sort of thing. (No help when Edison cuts power for eight hours, but that is fewer than two times a year.)

Message 4 of 18

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

I found a workaround that minimizes the network loops created by the satellites.

To reiterate, the real solution would be a setting where you can select backhaul priority.

1) Wireless Only (Default)

2) Ethernet Only

3) Ethernet First / Wireless Second

Netgear should change the method the satellites connect as the current method causes network loops.

 

Back to the workaround...

1) All devices powered off.

2) Power on satellites

3) Wait until ALL satellites show ethernet activity (it takes about 30-45 seconds for each)

4) Power on Router (main unit).

 

I had another power flicker yesterday.

Using this process I was back up completely in about 5 minutes with no loops.

 

And for good measure, I did pick up some UPS's for the satellites.

Message 5 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

Ethernet backhaul works as intended. Only factors that can cause problems are bad or incorrect CAT# cableing, bad cabling plugs or jacks or bad patch panels, use of managed switches that haven't had there IGMP protocols and green ethernet features disabled. Seen some non managed off branded switches cause problems as well. Not all switches are the same. 

NG GS-105/108v4 and GS308v3, D-Link DGS-105/108 and HP ProCurve 1400/1800 series switches work for Orbi systems. XS505M and GS110MX work great with the 9 series.

 

There would be no reason for force ethernet backhaul. And besides NG keeps the system set for automatic configuration so if something does happen on the ethernet connection, the RBS can fall back to wireless backhaul. 

 

Message 6 of 18
CrimpOn
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

Alas, I fear it would be nearly impossible to convince Netgear engineers that their design is incorrect.  They have sold 10's of thousands of Orbi units and this is not a common experience.  That being said.....

 

The work-around solution appears backward to me.

 


@Ozymandias_EBON wrote:

Back to the workaround...

1) All devices powered off.

2) Power on satellites

3) Wait until ALL satellites show ethernet activity (it takes about 30-45 seconds for each)

4) Power on Router (main unit).


If the problem is caused by the Satellites coming up first and not seeing the router Ethernet connection, then it seems to me that the word-around would be to

  1. Power off the satellites. (Leave the router alone).
  2. Say a prayer (or sing Happy Birthday).
  3. Power up the satellites. 

 

Message 7 of 18

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

Yes, it does seem backward which is why I never tried it before.

Based on what I can discern from the top light on the satellite, and the lights on the switch...

Top light goes solid...15-20 seconds later activity starts on the switch.

 

It "appears" the satellites wireless radio starts first and then the wired connections starts after.

The satellite wireless detects the wireless router and starts config sync.

15-20 seconds later the wired connections connect and starts config sync.

During this time is when the network loop is detected and all hell breaks loose.

 

By NOT having the Router on, AND waiting until the wired connections startup, the satellites are left in limbo.

Once I power on the router, the wired connection starts up first, the sat's wired starts config sync before the wireless can connect... no network loops.

 

 

Message 8 of 18
CrimpOn
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

It's good that you have a recovery method that works for you. The UPS units should help reduce the number of times per year this might happen.  I can't help but wonder if this is somehow related to the specific model of Orbi system or to the switches.

 

The original Orbi (2016) did not support wired backhaul.  The feature was introduced in a firmware update.  It is now been a feature for quite some time.  It seems (to me) that if this is an across the board issue with all Orbi systems, then any user who has satellites connected with wired backhaul would face this issue on every power outage.

 

Actually, it seem that the act of simply powering up a satellite that has a wired backhaul would immediately create a loop storm and this could be done at will.  Power up.  Storm.  Power off.  Power up. Storm. etc. etc.

 

My impression is that the router has a timer that checks periodically, "is there a satellite on the LAN?"  When it finds one, the backhaul changes from WiFi to wired.  If the router says, "damn. it's gone.", then backhaul switches to WiFi.  Both backhaul links would have to be up and running at the same time to create a loop. I cannot imagine what tools it would take to document what is going on.  The WiFi connection is encrypted, but the Ethernet connection may not be. I guess running Wireshark simultaneously on both the Ethernet and WiFi connections would show if there is traffic on both at the same time.

 

This is yet another occasion that I wish my house was "wired".

Message 9 of 18
defjaf
Tutor

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

Silly question, but could you define "network loop"? 

 

This seems to be the crux of your problem, but I'm not sure that people are addressing it, and whether it is an edge case created by what seems to be a pretty complicated network topology (various satellites and switches in addition to the router) in your case.

Message 10 of 18
CrimpOn
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

(From my corporate networking days.....)

 

Sometimes networks create two pathways to reach a device (usually by accident).  When a broadcast packet hits the network, the default behavior is to send that broadcast packet to every device on the entire IP subnet.  (i.e. "broadcast" Some common broadcast packets are DHCP requests and ARP requests).

 

A switch sends that packet out every port, including any uplinks.  Because of the multiple pathways, that packet arrives back at the switch on a different port and then gets sent back out every other port.  Then, it arrives again, and gets sent out again.  In a very short time, so many copies of this (single original) packet are being transmitted around the network that they consume the entire network bandwidth and the network becomes unusable.

 

Here's a description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_storm 

Message 11 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

Message 12 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

I was curious about this aswell and wanted to see if the ARP storm was still happening on my 50 series.

Got the RBS wirelessly connected to the RBR first: 

1_RBS50WirelessBackhaul2RBR50.png

2_RBS50WebPageWirelessBackhaul2RBR50.png

 

The first Down green arrow seems to be interactions of the browser with the RBRs web page as I was on the Connected Devices page and I presume it's updating at these intervals. The 1st Left green arrow is the browser logging into the RBS web page to check status. I logged off soon after. The 2nd Left green arrow me logging out of the RBRs web page. We don't see any interval checks after this. 

3__RBS50WirelessBackhaul2RBR50NetworkActivity.png

I then connect a CAT6 lan cable in between the RBS and RBR and let the RBS do it's thing. After about 2 minutes the RBRs web page finally updated correctly:

4_RBS50WiredBackhaul2RBR50.png

 

 

Logging into the RBS web page shows (Gray) wifi icon between the router and satellite inidcating a wired connection:5_RBS50WebPageWiredBackhaul2RBR50.png

 

I saw no ARP storms happening after I connected the ethernet cable to the back of the RBR. The 1st Down green arrow is where I had connected the RBS to the RBR via ethernet cable and was waiting. The Left green arrow is me logging into the RBRs web page and checking the status. 

6_RBS50WiredBackhaul2RBR50NetworkActivity.png

Saw no storms during this time frame.

 

I disconnected the ethernet cable between the RBR and RBS and let the RBS re-sync over wireless backhaul on it's own and did so successfully. After the RBS was fully back to ready after 3-4 minutes, I connected up a 1Gb non managed LAN switch (HP J9794A) to the back of the RBR with CAT6 and connected my wired PC to this switch as well. I connected the RBS ethernet cable to the back of the LAN switch. I watched the switches LED and the network activity monitor. I waited for about a minute then logged into the RBRs web page. The RBS had connected via ethernet and status showed as Wired as seen above. Again, saw no indications of any ARP storm happening after connecting the RBS via ethernet to the LAN switch. 

 

I emulated a power brown out by pulling the RBR and RBS power adapters for 30 seconds then plugged back in. Montiored the switches LED and my netwrk monitor app for any ARP storms.

 

I logged in to the RBRs web page and RBS was in Config Sync status:

7_RBS50WiredBackhaul2RBR50PowerCycleConfigSync.png

 

After about a minute or more, I noticed my network app saw a short ARP storm at the Left red arrow, that only lasted about 30 seconds then stopped:

8_RBS50WiredBackhaul2RBR50PowerCycleNetworkActivityARPStorm.png

 

Giving it a few more minutes the RBS successfully synced on wired with Good status on the RBRs web page:

9_RBS50WiredBackhaul2RBR50PowerCycleWiredStatusGood.png

 

Seems that maybe a ARP storm could be seen during a power outage and back ON across the system, however, giving the system time to come to full ready and after the storm passes, the system is working as expected in this configuration. 

@Blanca_O @KevinLiT 

Message 13 of 18
CrimpOn
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

(sorry if I missed this in an earlier post)  What is the application being used to record this network activity?

Message 14 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

BitMeter

Message 15 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

 I did another emulated power cycle. ARP storm happened again with the RBS connected via ethernet with LAN switch, seems to go about 1 minute or a bit longer this time however stopped and the system continued working fine.

10_RBS50WiredBackhaul2RBR50_2ndPowerCycleNetworkActivityARPStormNoBrowserOpen.png

I thought maybe having the web page opened on the RBRs web page was contributing to this but no, happens with the browser closed. Seems that a power outage then back on will trigger the storm however only seems to last for about a minute then stops. 

Message 16 of 18

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

It looks like you went deeper and proved out what seems to be happening to my network.

However, it looks like my managed switches add fuel to the fire by temporarily disabling the port when it notices the storm, waits 30 seconds, re-enables the port, rinse, repeat.

 

Since then I added a UPS to each sat (router was already on one) and that helped a little but not much.

There are still random times the router will go into config sync and cause loops.

I've disabled the ethernet backhaul because I can't go around playing whack-a-mole when I'm working.

 

Oh well.  I wish there was a better solution.

Message 17 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Please, Please, Please add "Force Ethernet Backhaul" to settings!!

For any managed switch, try disabling all IGMP protocols and any Green Ethernet features on the switch and try again. If all else fails, use a non managed switch. 

Message 18 of 18
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