Serious Satellite Connectivity Bug

[benn600]

What I'm saying is that I will set my Orbi satellites wherever I have to so I can rule out this theory.  If I place them so they turn purple, then by definition I'm exceeding the 20% rule.  Yes, my friend did need 2 satellites.  But I'm also in a 2-story where he's not, AND I have a basement garage so technically I'm 3-stories.  If I include that and some courtyard space I'm at closer to 4-5K SF.  Perhaps they need to be placed farther apart.  If this is what you are saying then I will place them farther apart and run a test.

The easiest answer is to go to my friend's and see if his system experiences this.  I'm just afraid to stir up a problem because he bought 2 Orbi Routers and 3 Orbi Satellites at my recommendation and if I discover and show him a problem with the system I'll feel bad.  So I'm aiming for shipping a 3-pack to my parents who can set it up in their 5500 SF house, with a lot of exterior space as well, and test a system in that environment.

My point is that it doesn't matter the footprint of my space.  I should be able to overcome this problem by simply placing them where they need to go.  In other words, where do I need to set the devices so they work and don't exhibit this horrible problem.

[peteytesting]

sorry buy we cant quote parts of converastions here so i have to quote you and then respond

point 1

"What I'm saying is that I will set my Orbi satellites wherever I have to so I can rule out this theory.  If I place them so they turn purple, then by definition I'm exceeding the 20% rule."

no this is not the case as you mis understand the backhaul and connectivity

point 2

 "Perhaps they need to be placed farther apart.  If this is what you are saying then I will place them farther apart and run a test."

yup at my testing they need to be at least 15 meters apart , which is about 50 feet at least

point 3

"he bought 2 Orbi Routers and 3 Orbi Satellites at my recommendation and if I discover and show him a problem with the system I'll feel bad"

im assuming for 2 dfferent houses as you cant really use 2 orbi routers in the same location

point 4

"So I'm aiming for shipping a 3-pack to my parents who can set it up in their 5500 SF house, with a lot of exterior space as well, and test a system in that environment."

understand the coverage area is with the house and does not include exterior locations and never has suggested so

point 5

"I should be able to overcome this problem by simply placing them where they need to go.  In other words, where do I need to set the devices so they work and don't exhibit this horrible problem."

the diagram above shows you this is not the case and you have to understand physics and wifi coverage and overlap when it comes to client roaming

disconnect at least 1 sat and see how it goes as i think you just have too much wifi

pete

[benn600]

When I have only one satellite, my kitchen speaker drops out periodically.  It also loses its WiFi connection and reboots, turning yellow for a few seconds.  It could be something in the wall that is causing the problem.  But it's odd that I never have trouble connecting to devices on either satellite while I'm on the Router, either wired or wireless.  It's only when connected to a satellite where the other satellite's devices become invisible/gone from the network.  It's not intermittent either.  Either I see and can ping the other satellite or I cannot.  While connected to the router everything always works great.  While on a satellite, I can connect to devices hardwired ot the router fully reliably.  I have 3 speakers connected to the router and these are always there and reliable.

It definitely seems like a software or hardware problem.  I understand there are physics limitations but one of the best things about the Orbi is it works with a lot of imperfect layouts.

Running Ethernet is an option but I want a refund on the $600 I spent on Orbi and I'll put that towards opening up the drywall.  The whole point -- "entire purpose of this system" -- is to get a fast and separate backhaul.  You can tell me that you can "over-wifi" a space and on one level I agree.  However, I imagine this 3rd radio backhaul and think about how they are basically just nodes on the Router's backhaul.  Well I never have been told: oh your iPhone (which is "just" a node, same as a satellite) is too close, oh now it's too far, oh now it's just right.  I understand there are physics issues at play but the whole point of beam forming and adjusting transmit power dynamically and such is to work around these normal/common scenarios.

[st_shaw]

@benn600 Sonos speakers allow you to use the network drops on the individual speakers as a wireless bridge. They communicate on a separate mesh network using a different channel than the main WiFi network.  I have this setup in two houses to connect wired devices in locations where I have no wires (printer, weather stations, thermostat gateway, etc.) and it works great.  If you had Sonos, you'd be able to do exactly what you want. Does HEOS have a feature like that?

[benn600]

I don't like Sonos because they don't sound as good.  Again, we're diverting.  My Foscam camera and two AppleTV's go offline just like my HEOS speakers do.  I'm not using device reference for any reason other than to count the number of devices.  I have 10 Denon HEOS nodes and they perform incredibly, they actually worked the best since getting the Orbi.  I don't want yet another network, I want one rock-solid 1.8gbps backhaul that handles a majority of my network traffic.

[OrbiMan]

Guys we are off topic it is not so much about roaming or steering problems. So much that we loose part of our network intermittently.

[benn600]

That's what I'm trying to say.  The wireless itself is very reliable and very stable.  It works great!  Just that sometimes a third of my network vanishes and cannot be pinged, in the scenarios that I described above.  Is anyone here with Netgear directly who might be able to confirm this problem?  I wish I knew it if only started with a firmware update but I'm really not sure.

Wireless connectivity to my router/modem is essentially always flawless.

[benn600]

Something that helps is if I connect to a wired node, and then it does the talking to other devices.

I think this connectivity issue might be less realized because not everyone has their devices talk to other devices very often.  The typical use case is getting internet to devices.  When I send music to my wired HEOS, and it talks to the other 9 speakers, it seems pretty solid.

This issue, which other users have seen, is NOT resolved however.  I got an email from the Netgear forum (with variables not populated btw) that asked if I had found a solution.  This most definitely has not been solved.

[benn600]

This is still a total disaster.  I cannot connect to my Logitech Harmony Hub.  It is offline and unavailable from my iPhone because my iPhone happens to be on the kitchen satellite while the downstairs Harmony Hub is connected to my living room satellite.   Instead, the app has to route through the cloud.  Which works flawlessly!  Rock solid proof that I don't have a wifi problem, but a double hop backhaul problem.  I'm changing my review on Amazon, this is a mess and I have no angles to try for a resolution.

Netgear, any ideas?  This is consistently reproducible even after 5 hardware resets and 20+ power cycles.  Happens to ~15 different devices as well, from and to different types of devices.  I tried everything that users have suggested in this thread.

[st_shaw]

Your best bet is to work with support on your open ticket. You haven't posted specific enough information on here for anyone to help you.

We understand you have problems communicating from sat to sat in one direction.  You said you swapped the sats and the problem remains, but you haven't said if the problem follows a particular sat or if the problem stayed with the sat location.

It could be a hardware problem, but it could be with the router or with the new sat.  There's not enough info on here to isolate the problem.

[Bing-Stroller]

With regard to the Sonos, there is obviously a problem in your setup.

My setup is as follows:

Router -Harmony Hub One connected.

Satellite 1 Harmony Hub Two connected

Satellite 2 Harmony Hub Three connected

Initially when i used the Android Harmony app it would try and connect via the cloud to reach the Hubs. I was able to cancel this before it connected and it automatically searched for and connected via my network.

Now, (just rechecked) when I open the Harmony app it automatically scans for the Hubs on the whole network and is able to see all three hubs and connect to whichever one I select. It does not matter which router/sat my phone is connected to the results are always the same.

So it can and does work in my case. However I am running one of the Beta Firmware as supplied so I dont know if that makes any differance.

It must be that your Orbi is not capable of showing the Harmony app the whole network.

It may not help a great deal but it confirms that my Orbi system is capable of performing the request but yours cannot.

[benn600]

The point is that every device on a 2-hop distance Orbi is unreachable.  I would love to try beta firmware.  It is tough to know if the satellite position stayed the same when I switched because it is intermittent.  However, I'm just about sure that the same problem exists both directions.  The issue never happens to any devices that are connected to my router.  Maybe Netgear could send me a three pack and I'll text it.

[benn600]

Simple test:
1. iPhone close to living room satellite (connected to it)
2. Access 10.0.0.3, the other satellite's DHCP reserved address: hangs
3. Access the same IP from any devices connected to router or the other satellite: opens immediately

[Stkasm]

benn600 you're right. It has nothing to do with your signal. what you're describing looks like a bridge misconfiguration or a routing problem between tunnels on Orbi router's side.i'll do a quick test with my system when I'm back home - early next week.i have two satellites. My orbi system is in AP mode and I also have Sonos using 2.4G Orbi network. Sonos works just fine but it's pretty complex in the way it uses the network. Out of about 20 devices connected to the network backbone Sonos is the only type of workload that wants to communicate between the nodes and uses only Orbi.everything else is from Orbi to WAN router or from Orbi to Ethernet connected devices via central switch. Anyway, what you're describing should be super easy to reproduce

[benn600]

That's my point. My 70+ devices don't matter, it is as simple as the above. This just leads me to the scenarios I have described. Any suggestions Netgear?

[st_shaw]

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@benn600 wrote:
Any suggestions Netgear?

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If you have an open support case, why are you asking for a response from Netgear on here? Other than the moderator, almost nobody from Netgear frequents this forum.

[benn600]

I have a case open but I wasn't willing to pay to return defective hardware. I can call and ask to escalate to a complimentary advanced RMA. Or other ideas to test.

[Stkasm]

So, I found some time today to do the testing. @benn600 unfortunately (or fortunately), I can't reproduce what you're describing. What I did:

1. Connected laptop #1 to Satelite #1, verified BSSID in windows (netsh wlan show interfaces)

2. Connected laptop #2 to Satelite #2, verified BSSID in windows (netsh wlan show interfaces)

3. verified that both laptops are accessible via ping from my ESXi VM running on a host connected to the main home switch (the one orbi router also connects to)

4. verified that lapton #1 and laptop #2 can ping each other (double hop)

5. verified that I can access router and both satelites via individual UIs from a laptop connected to a satelite

My orbi system is in AP mode, if your is not, try switching to AP and let your ISP router do the rest

[benn600]

Netgear replied to one of my reviews and said that this is looking like a known problem, several other people are experiencing it.  They sent me info on trying beta firmware.  I also have a new satellite in the mail that I can test.  So hopefully either the firmware or the hardware will fix it.  I will be a HAPPY camper if it does!  I still love Orbi but this problem is terrifying awful.

[benn600]

The moment I get home I'm trying the latest firmware 1.12.0.18!

https://www.netgear.com/support/product/RBK50#RBS50

"Fixes the iOS disconnection issue." sounds pretty close to exactly what I was experiencing.  Others are talking about slow downs and other connectivity problems.  I can't wait to have my network back again!!  I was loving my rock-solid Heos and home automation connectivity before I added the 2nd satellite.  It never faulted, 99%+ of the time.

Now I may be tempted to add a 3rd satellite in my small 1200 SF townhouse because I love plugging devices in directly to an Orbi so they are exclusively routed over the dedicated backhaul and not slowing down the primary dual band networks.  Still hands down the best router/AP ever ever ever.

[benn600]

Looking great!  I opened my Philips Hue app and it immediately connected to my first bridge.  When I tapped the second bridge (to switch connections) there was no loader shown.  It immediately connected.  Harmony connected within about 1/2 a second to each hub.  My HEOS 10-speaker system started playing a FLAC audio file housewide in about 1/2 - 1 second.

Things are looking fantastic once again!!  I hope this continues.  What a disaster of a bug that they finally (appear to have) fixed in firmware version: 1.12.0.18

[benn600]

This is still broken. Suddenly my Kitchen Heos vanished. When I walked close to my Kitchen Orbi, it came back.

1. It may still be hardware so I'll test the replacement they are shipping me.
2. I'll try resetting and pairing the satellites.
3. Worst case I'll reset the router and manually add the 100 DHCP reservations and settings.

[OrbiPhilip]

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@benn600 wrote:
This is still broken. Suddenly my Kitchen Heos vanished. When I walked close to my Kitchen Orbi, it came back.

1. It may still be hardware so I'll test the replacement they are shipping me.
2. I'll try resetting and pairing the satellites.
3. Worst case I'll reset the router and manually add the 100 DHCP reservations and settings.

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#3 is one reason I use a standalond DHCP/DNS server.  

I have reset and reconfigured everything. At this point I'm spending way too much time tryng to make it work, and the family is fairly aggravated. If 1.12.0.8 does not make it stable, I will have to find another solution.

[benn600]

This is actually worse than I thought and happened immediately.  I have one router in the middle of my upstairs and two satellites, each on the edge of my downstairs (rectangular shape).

1. Hold reset with a paperclip on EACH satellite (both) until it blinks amber.  It resets and is not connected to my router.

2. Launch add satellite from mobile app and push the sync button, wait the 6 minutes.  I did one satellite at a time, kitchen first and then living room.

3. While standing near Kitchen satellite I see my Kitchen HEOS and Foscam (both Ethernet connected to Orbi) without any issue.

4. I walk upstairs near the router and BAM, Kitchen HEOS and Kitchen camera are gone/invisible/cannot ping and I cannot ping the satellite.

I'm going to test a few more scenarios.  This happened immediately and without delay, and over and over.  I probably need to reset my router...

[benn600]

I spent the time today to reset all 3 of my Orbi devices.  Router and both satellites.  I exported all of my settings and re-entered them by hand, only changing DHCP reservations and realizing there is a limit of 64 (wtf?) thankfully entered them with a bit of scripting help to expedite the process.  I also added port forwarding and my network name/password.

I immediately had the exact same problem.  Standing in my kitchen, my Kitchen HEOS and Foscam are accessible.  Walk upstairs, near the router, and bam.  They are both gone.

The warranty replacement device should be here shortly so I will try swapping out the satellite.  I guess I can hope that it is a hardware problem so this resolves it.