Re: Update V1.9.1.12 Netgear officially announcing 'Improvement in wireless connection Stability'

TomMac · ‎2017-06-03

Funny , I've tried Wifi analyzer and don't see the dropout that others see... it is basically consistant... farely stable

Look , by any means I am not a router expert... my forte is in wifi cameras and arlo wifi cams..... I've been dealing with the same issues as others as to the Orbi.

What I can say is the latest debug FW ( 1.11.0.2) , has solves all my issues without any other changes...why, I really have no clue , I just know it works for me.

But it still is interesting to see a wide varied response to so many users with or without the same issue

Retired_Member · ‎2017-06-03

Hi TomMac, even your backhaul is steady on Wi-Fi analyzer? It would be about the same strength as the other 2 signals coming from the router except the 2 backhaul signals have no SSID. Sorry if that's already what you were referring to.

I'm truly glad it is working for you, hopefully we can all say that soon. It just seems really strange how there are different results even when some users have almost identical setups. For example the beta FW was a mess for me but has helped others.

Flash008 · ‎2017-06-03

Gentlemen, and ladies, if there are some,

Orbi needs to work as designed. That means any “fix” that requires; a. Disabling MU-MINO, b. Disable Beamforming, c. Reduce your power, d. Unplug you Satellites, etc, etc.

This is NOT a “fix”.

If my car is not operating properly and the dealer or manufacture instructs me to disable half my cylinders, never use my AC, radio, or cruise control, etc, keep your RPMs under 3K and never drive faster than 40MPH. Well, I think you would all agree that I would be “complaining”. And asking for a refund.

What “I believe” is happening is the Orbi Algorithm is not working for “SOME”. Of course, it will work for some, and not others. WHY? Because there is no single magic Algorithm that works for every environment and client device.

Cisco, and many other commercial grade wireless systems usually have a central control station that manages all APs in a multiple AP environment. This control station monitors all connections and status of all APs. It will change channels of some APs depending on the APs location and nearby interference, it will steer clients to other APs based on that devices capability and the overall status of the APs grid. And it will do MANY other things to insure a proper, healthy, functional and stable WIFI experience. It does this dynamically because WIFI conditions are never the same though the day, week, month, etc. One minute it has 10 clients, and one hour later it has 40. One hour the client is close to AP node 1, then it shows its closer to AP node 2. If the device does not move itself to the better AP node, the control station will move it.

If I have an Algorithm that instructs;

“If” client connects to Orbi Sat using 5G radio, “and” its RSSI is -65 or better, “then” DO NOT STEER to 2G, or Orbi Router.

“If” client RSSI drops below -65 using 5G radio, “then” steer to Sat 2G radio.

“If” client RSSI is -65 or lower using Sat 2G radio, “then” steer to Orbi Router 2G radio, “only” if RSSI is -65 or greater using Router 2G radio.

If client RSSI is -40 or greater using router 2G radio, “then” steer to router 5G radio.

The above is a VERY simple Algorithm for example purposes.

I think Netgears’ Algorithm is broken, and they are “trying” to find the one Algorithm that works for EVERYONE.

I think Netgear is trying to prevent the Sat backhaul from becoming too congested. Hence, the Algorithm is bias to the router and attempts to steer clients to the router as much as possible.

The problem with any “bias” to the router, is modern devices that are not STUPID and can see the Sat having a much greater signal (-50 or better, compared to the current -70 it may have), and it switches to the Sat. But then, the Orbi Algorithm runs again and kicks the client back to the router. And the circle starts again. The client devices will “argue” and switch back to the Sat and Orbi will repeat this process again.

But, after a few bounces between the router and Sat. the client drops its connection. And this can be due to several reasons. Example; 1. The client MAC is now showing on both Sat and Router and the L2 switching doesn’t know what path to reach the device. 2. The Apple client code realizes it cannot maintain a consistent connection to the WIFI network and hence it gives up and DROPS because its tired of being kicked several times to different AP nodes. It wants to choose the AP node itself, so it says screw you Orbi.

Some devices are STUPID, and once they lock onto a BSSID AP Node, they stay. And if steering moves that device to another AP node, then it stays there. Some devices with bad and lazy code are perfect candidates for steering because they lack the intelligence to move to a better AP node. But newer devices with good code DO NOT like steering. They will go to WAR with it. But, the WIFI gods know this, so they created flags that APs can send to clients with “suggestions”. “Hey iPhone, I have this wonderful AP node with a much better signal, so why not try that.” The iPhone can choose to ignore it. If the iPhone has an existing data connection that must be maintained, it may choose to stay on the AP node it is using, and perhaps switch AP nodes once it goes back to idle. Example, Flash is on a WIFI Call. So, NO. I want to stay where I am at because switching may break the connection. I will move later. But if Orbi forces the move and STP and other network features are not used...Guess what...DROP...

Again, this is what I believe could be causing the problem, but it’s hard to prove because unlike EVERYONE else who makes Multi-AP platforms with steering and other advanced features. They let you see the Algorithm and change it. They let you disable and enable features that may, or may not, work for YOU. WHY? Because they know there is no one size, no single Algorithm, that WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

Retired_Member · ‎2017-06-04

Great points Flash008 I hope Netgear listens. I want to add to it by saying I think Netgear is driving devices to the router because they are trying to cover up their hardware flaw with the backhaul. The firmware updates give the perception of improvement because they are taking more steps to hide this issue. I know when i first checked to see what was connected to router vs satellite I was surprised how few were connected to the satellite. The router has an impressive range. Hardware issues are costly, which is why Netgear won't admit it and why they haven't been able to fix this issue that has been steadily reported for 9 months.

Bing-Stroller · ‎2017-06-04

I can no longer check which devices are connected to the satellite.

I can login to the satellite, can check its status and reach the firmware update page

But, when i go to the Connected Devices page I get the message "Please wait a moment..."

Have tried all sorts and have run out of ideas as to how I can rectify

tubastank · ‎2017-06-05

I'm having more disconnects, dropped packets and router reboots on the latest beta firmware than previous. Tonight has been a nightmare. My case was updated so Netgear knows but my router literally rebooted, not once but twice when I enabled Traffic Meter. Since I've enabled the stability of my connection has been pathetic. I was averaging 1% packet loss and the latest is 4%.

I'm beyond frustrated!

Flash008 · ‎2017-06-05

What version is your beta? Latest is 1.11.x. Correct? I rolled back to 1.10.x and life has been better, but still the same stuff. I am worried, because the GA version they put out 2 weeks ago is showing on the Orbi, so I pray it doesn’t auto update. I checked today and it has not.

Thank God I had a busy weekend with family and friends and work is busy too. I haven’t had much time to mess around with Orbi the past 3 days. And what's funny.

They sent me a request to provide a network diagram of my home setup, list of device firmware and drivers, logs from all client devices and some other stuff. About 2-3 hours’ worth of work. I grinned and replied…”Sure, $100 per hour, or free Netgear products”.
I received a Netgear marketing dept email to “Win a Amazon Gift Card by giving Orbi a rating” ….LOL….Ummm…You sure you want me to do that Netgear? Really?

But, I have good news and bad news for ALL OF YOU!

I believe I have confirmed my suspicions.

I switched the Router and Satellite locations Friday. Same locations, only switched.

Guess what? The router is now closest to my home office. So, my iPhones connect to the router. And guess what? No WIFI Calling problems. Stable connection.

I tried again in my other room with the satellite. DROP!!!!!

That Orbi code is forcefully steering connections to the router. This WILL NOT WORK FOR ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES A CURRENT ACTIVE DATA CONNECTION. Apps that have buffers like Netflix, Sling and Video and Music apps. Sure, they will survive mostly. Because they have 5-10 seconds of buffer data to handle that lost connection. But WIFI-Calling, Gaming and any other application that requires real-time and low latency (minus 30)…Orbi is going to “mess you up”.

Orbi doesn’t care, and it will FORCE your client to that router, and if your device doesn’t agree and moves back to the satellite…Orbi will do it AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN….

Those Orbi Satellites are the problem. WHY? Because Orbi wants the Router to be KING.

SO, the Satellites are practically WORTHLESS given the way Netgear is handling their algorithm.

Retired_Member · ‎2017-06-05

Lol Flash008, I think the only purpose of your diagram homework and all other assignments is to make you give up and close your case! That probably goes right in their trash can.

Your satellite droppimg connections is a critical observation, I would only add that I think it's actually the router dropping the backhaul, which then makes the satellite drop it's devices. Netgear's betas are attempting to force clients to the router to cover up their problem. They know the problem and they are trying to pull one over on us instead of truly standing by their product. What a joke and shame.

Ts937km · ‎2017-06-06

I disagree and must say you guys seem to be masochists. I would have folded a long time ago and just bought something else. And, I doubt your network is any more difficult than mine or is it. And I think they are trying to find out exactly what the issue is. I have 3 of the netgears. I run the latest apple hardware, the latest Microsoft surface stuff, Alienware with htc vive, multiple media streamers, heos and sonos speakers, 10 Amazon echoes, tons of wifi connected appliances (crockpots to garage openers), etc. SmartThings with zigbee and zwave, home alarm, arlo pro security cams, wifi security cameras, android and Garmin watches with wifi, ring doorbells, the list goes on and on. No issues on the production firmware at all.

Has to be something unique in your environment that is causing the issue. Maybe a neighbor Nextdoor that has containment turned on.

I wonder what the percentage of people having the problem really are.

Retired_Member · ‎2017-06-06

Ts937km, install Wi-Fi Analyzer and look at your backhaul. I promise you it is not stable.

Ts937km · ‎2017-06-06

I tried airmagnet, solar winds.. Not seeing anything strange. I can stream 4k from my home server for hours, play music on my wifi speakers. use ipads for hours, never a dropout. Echos stay connected, webex and hangouts for hours as well in the last few weeks.

Which tool in particular?

Retired_Member · ‎2017-06-06

The one I was using is a mobile app called Wi-Fi Analyzer or another called Netgear Wi-Fi Analytics. The ones you are using should work if they graph a signal strength over time. The backhaul has no SSID and will be about the same strength as the other signals from the router. If guest network is off, you should 4 different signals coming from the router.

Are any of the devices you use for Hangouts connected to the satellite? I have no drops while streaming either since the network is able to buffer far enough in advance. I don't notice the Echo ir Google Home being disconnected until I ask a question and get the "sorry I'm having trouble connecting" response.

Thanks for looking into this, I've been really curious how it looks for someone with no problems.

Ts937km · ‎2017-06-06

I will give it a try tonight. I'l load up a s8 with that product

Yes my main router is in my basement. A satellite is right near where I work and one at the other end of the house by the bedrooms.

Prior to the current production my echo's would do that randomly. Beed weeks since I saw that.

I use my echo's constantly as I use them for home automation, lights etc. No issues at all.

tubastank · ‎2017-06-06

@Flash008 wrote:
What version is your beta? Latest is 1.11.x. Correct? I rolled back to 1.10.x and life has been better, but still the same stuff. I am worried, because the GA version they put out 2 weeks ago is showing on the Orbi, so I pray it doesn’t auto update. I checked today and it has not.

Thank God I had a busy weekend with family and friends and work is busy too. I haven’t had much time to mess around with Orbi the past 3 days. And what's funny.

They sent me a request to provide a network diagram of my home setup, list of device firmware and drivers, logs from all client devices and some other stuff. About 2-3 hours’ worth of work. I grinned and replied…”Sure, $100 per hour, or free Netgear products”.
I received a Netgear marketing dept email to “Win a Amazon Gift Card by giving Orbi a rating” ….LOL….Ummm…You sure you want me to do that Netgear? Really?

But, I have good news and bad news for ALL OF YOU!

I believe I have confirmed my suspicions.

I switched the Router and Satellite locations Friday. Same locations, only switched.

Guess what? The router is now closest to my home office. So, my iPhones connect to the router. And guess what? No WIFI Calling problems. Stable connection.

I tried again in my other room with the satellite. DROP!!!!!

That Orbi code is forcefully steering connections to the router. This WILL NOT WORK FOR ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES A CURRENT ACTIVE DATA CONNECTION. Apps that have buffers like Netflix, Sling and Video and Music apps. Sure, they will survive mostly. Because they have 5-10 seconds of buffer data to handle that lost connection. But WIFI-Calling, Gaming and any other application that requires real-time and low latency (minus 30)…Orbi is going to “mess you up”.

Orbi doesn’t care, and it will FORCE your client to that router, and if your device doesn’t agree and moves back to the satellite…Orbi will do it AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN….

Those Orbi Satellites are the problem. WHY? Because Orbi wants the Router to be KING.

SO, the Satellites are practically WORTHLESS given the way Netgear is handling their algorithm.

Flash008,

Yep, the 1.11.x is the version I have installed. Overnight I had 3% dropped packets. Two of my boys woke up and not 15 minutes went by and they asked "what's wrong with the Wifi"? I'm thinking of going back to my Apple Airport Extreme but placing it on the main level of the house instead of in the basement. I'll have to run a long ethernet cable to the cable modem as it's in the basement but this will at least give me another router to test against the Orbi and potentially fall back to.

I too don't have the time to babysit this. I wanted what everyone else wanted but am not getting it. I just hope I can find my Costco receipt so I can take it back and Costco will take it back where I can get a full refund.

tubastank · ‎2017-06-06

Another update....

My one satellite, the other has been unlugged for at least a week, is now showing a solid magenta which means it cannot obtain an IP address from the router. I installed Netspot on my Dell Laptop and the backhaul (no SSID) signal is up and down like a fricken rollercoaster. I'm betting if I went down to the router itself and was able to place it in the middle of our home on the main level my problems would go away as there wouldn't be any satellite(s) to communicate with and the Netgear algorithm shouldn't come into play as it wouldn't be needed since all devices would connect to the router and stay there no matter where they were at in the house. The problem is dead spots and this isn't how it is supposed to work but may prove a point like many others have proved.

TomMac · ‎2017-06-07

@BobertSaget wrote:
Ts937km, install Wi-Fi Analyzer and look at your backhaul. I promise you it is not stable.

Bob....

Are you seeing the drop out on the 5ghz side... TMK the backhaul is the third transmitter in the Orbi 50 and only on 5ghz

It's channel 153 for NA and 104 for EU

Retired_Member · ‎2017-06-07

Hey TomMac, I am seeing the drop on the 5 GHz and 2.4 GHz backhaul. I don't know if they serve separate purposes but they both drop constantly at different times. I'm seeing the backhaul on channel 157 and I'm in NA. So with guest network off, there are 4 signals coming from the RBR50.

Someone else said that the 2.4 backhaul is only used as a backup in case the 5 GHz fails. I thought that was interesting and may be related to the speed discrepancies some users see.

peteytesting · ‎2017-06-07

hi

the backhaul is only wireless AC on 5 gig , there is no 2.4 gig as far as i know , i think what you will find is the apps just dont like hidden sidd and thats why you are seeing what you are seeing , try transferring a file from one device to another over the orbi router ethernet and sat ethernet , with the router and sat about 10 meters apart you should see 50MB/s and thus proving its a reporting issues and not the transmission its self

pete

TomMac · ‎2017-06-07

I see the unknown on 2.4 and it does reg bottom out, it just that it doesn't appear to do anything to any devices i have on that band... ( unsure purpose ).

Tho my 5ghz side is stable

Retired_Member · ‎2017-06-07

Here is what I see coming out of the RBR50 and RBS50 with no interference anywhere near.

Light blue: 5 GHz Wi-Fi from router

Green: 2.4 GHz Wi-Fi from router (power reduced 25%)

Pink: 2.4 GHz backhaul from router

Orange: 5 GHz backhaul from router

Dark Blue: 2.4 GHz Wi-Fi from satellite

Dark red: 5 GHz Wi-Fi from satellite

Also the satellite can be unplugged and the router graph is unchanged.

TomMac · ‎2017-06-07

Ok...tks for info

BTW, running FW 1.11.0.2 debug at this time here

tubastank · ‎2017-06-11

Just updated my support case with the following.

"Prior to June 6 I was having nothing but problems with my Orbi system and one satellite. The other satellite was unplugged. I have the current beta firmware installed.

Dropped packets which interrupts Webex, VoIP, gaming. I was also experiencing disconnects on iOS devices, MacBooks, an iMac and a Windows 10 laptop.

I decided to do a little experiment. I disconnected my 2nd satellite and have only been using my Orbi router. No satellites connected. This required me to move the router from the unfinished basement to the main level so wifi coverage was better throughout my household.

I've experienced no disconnects in this time. I've experienced dropped packets but not enough to even register anything over 0%. No interruptions and my wife and kids are not after me because the wifi is up and down. This week has been peaceful.

So...what is the deal Netgear? The Orbi router + one satellite was very bad and adding another satellite was a nightmare. Contention between the satellite & router? Backhaul issue between the router and satellites? Netspot did show the backhaul signal was up and down when I had one satellite connected. Is there a steering issue?

Both the backhaul and steering come into play when a satellite is introduced. No satellite, no need for a backhaul. No satellite, no need for steering as the only thing for a wifi device to connect to is the Orbi router.

So which is it? Is it the backhaul, steering or both?"

rivets · ‎2017-06-11

I've been running router only for several days now. I've been seeing dropouts and signal strength variations. Also prompts to re-enter wifi passwords which did not happen before. Looking at the log devices are making repeated DHCP requests. I also think I might be seeing battery drain in my iPad again.

L.

Flash008 · ‎2017-06-11

Tub,

If it is not clear to you yet, then please allow me to clarify (as a friend).

Netgear doesn't care.

My last request to Netgear was to provide me a Beta with Steering disabled. They said, "NO". Plain and simple. NO...

To be fair, and honest. I did switch my Router and Sat locations. Same location, only switched. This has improved things (somewhat), ONLY because the router is now located in the areas of my home I use most. Making the Sat usage very LOW. Making the Router the primary device (no need to steer). This ONLY works because I am running the beta 1.10.x. BUT, the newest GA release is of a newer version number than the beta. SO, my Orbi auto updates to the GA release which I can see it happening INSTANTLY when my WIFI goes to COMPLETE BAD. A quick check of the Orbi when my devices begin to drop like crazy and I see the GA release has applied, and then I roll it back to Beta 1.10.x and life is back to "SOME" normal.

I asked Netgear for a beta that allows auto updating to be disabled. They said , "NO".

SO here I am. I must run a beta, and prepare to roll back every few days or so when it updates to the HORRIBLE GA version.

Netgear doesn't care, and frankly I have given up.

Thankfully I have been VERY busy with work and personal life for the past 2 weeks, hence Orbi is low priority to me.

BUT, there is good news.

ASUS HIVE is about to launch. And given my previous experience with ASUS I am very eager to try it. It is the same setup as Orbi (dedicated backhaul). Up to 5 APs and it looks to be true MESH (unlike Orbi). And I have no doubt that ASUS Hive will give me (and most of us) the abilty to configure as we wish and need.

I am also looking at Ubiquiti which we already know is far better, but lacks the dedicated wireless backhual.

So, I am going to wait for the ASUS Hive launch and give it a try.

Maybe (MAYBE), Netgear will wake up and listen to thier customers. But given how long Orbi has been released and the many updates they have provided. I can see NO indication they are going to do the things we ask.

Good luck to you. Sorry you are in the same boat many of us are. But this forum, and Netgear's response (and lack of response) shows me that Orbi may be a lost cause.

Netgear's attitude seems to be, "If it works for the 70 percent, then forget the 30 percent whom it doesn't.

Goodnight to you and I hope your coming week goes well.

peteytesting · ‎2017-06-11

hi flash

just to correct you on a few points

the asus lyra ( formally known as hive ) its unsure if it uses a dedicated 5 gig backhaul and even if it does its only 867M so half the throughput of the orbi

you will also be waiting a while as the lyra is still in beta teating as far as i have heard and wont be available till q3

im also sorry but you purchased the netgear knowing it had band steering and auto update , why should netgear change to suit you

sure your not happy with the orbi and sure try the asus lyra but im pretty sure its going to have band steering and ap steering and auto update

understanding what you are buying is the key here , you cant expect everything to change to suit you and your specific requirements

i can also assure netear dev team is working hard on the drop outs and connection issues but they are issues , what you are after is a revamp of the design which i dont believe is warrented

pete