v2.5.0.38 undoes SSD split - is there a fix?

[jasonrdunn]

For over a year I've had my Orbi WiFi network split into distinct SSIDs for 2.4Ghz and 5.2Ghz, required in order for me to get some of my home automation switches set up. I installed the 2.5.0.38 firmware last night, and it wiped out the distinct SSIDs. No big deal I thought, I'd just re-do the steps. I followed the process here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEgVG8rR5o8

After a reboot, my 5.2Ghz SSID showed up. My devices re-connected...then about 10 minutes later that SSID went away. Vanished! I repeated the steps in the YouTube video, did the process again, and it worked...for 10 minutes.

It seems like Netgear has some security tool that's resetting the changes I'm making - is there any way around this?

[FURRYe38 · Accepted solution]

I can confirm that this method does work with one additional step: V38 FW loaded.

@michaelkenward wrote:

• Turn off 5 GHz SSID broadcast. You must wait for about 1-1.5 minutes for the change to take effect. 
• Pick up phone/pad.
• Go to wifi settings and tell it to forget the connection to the Orbi's SSID
• Turn OFF WiFi radio on the phone or pad for 5 seconds. Then turn the wifi radio back on.
• Tell phone to connect to the Orbi (it will see and use the 2.4 GHz SSID)
• Set up IoT thing
• Turn on 5 GHz SSID broadcast
• The next time your mobile phone connects to the Orbi it should find, and use, 5 GHz.

Please see attached screen capture of my iPhone connected to 2.4Ghz after the 5Ghz SSID Broadcast name was disabled. 

[Dregus]

So I just got my RBK53 setup today and this is the FW that update when I connected everything . I had planned to do as you had an split the SSIDs because of all the IoT devices requiring 2.4ghz only. Unfortunately as you noticed the SSID is auto reverting after a short period. I have found that by changing my SSID to my previous 2.4ghz SSID from my old setup that everything has connected. I also believe that if you disable the 5ghz radio and reboot or turn off wifi on your phone for a short period then reconnect you should be able to get IoT items to see the single SSID and get them connected. Once done you can just reactivate the 5ghz band. Hope that works for you.

[sgrayban]

That's not a fix...

There many are reasons many IoT devices will not work with a common SSID name which is why a separate SSID is required. I have a few devices that refuse to connect to a common 5/2.4GHZ single named SSID. This is just wrong plain and simple.

[michaelkenward]

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@sgrayban wrote:

There many are reasons many IoT devices will not work with a common SSID name which is why a separate SSID is required.

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That is not quite true. IoT devices don't care about 5 GHz if they can't see it. What flummoxes them is a setup process that uses some other devices, usually a mobile app.

This is a regular issue that is down to crappy programming by the people who sell these IoT toys. They simply have not caught up with the development of Mesh wifi.

The usual solution is to turn off the broadcast of the 5 GHz SSID temporarily. Set up the IoT thing. Turn the SSID back on. The 5 GHz will then show up, but your devices will not suddenly blow up.

[jasonrdunn]

Interesting, I hadn't considered hiding the 5Ghz SSID as a valid option because I thought devices that already were attached to that network with the SSID being the same would stay connected. The network is still there after all, it's just the SSID that goes away. You've confirmed this works? Devices on the 5Ghz network will drop to the 2.4Ghz network when the 5Ghz SSID is set to hidden?

[michaelkenward]

This is a regiulatr suggestion here and has been used with various deviuces. There are other options, but that is the eaisest.

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@jasonrdunn wrote:
Devices on the 5Ghz network will drop to the 2.4Ghz network when the 5Ghz SSID is set to hidden?

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Devices will not "drop" to the 2.4 GHz if they cannot use 5 GHz.

Turning off the SSID broadcast does not disable the 5 GHz.

Devices already connected to the 5 GHz should stick with it. After all, if a client knows the correct details and the 5GHz is still broadcasting, the client can connect.

If you know the SSID and password, you can even connect to a 5GHz device that is not broadcasting the SSID.

Some people never turn on the SSID broadcast.

[jasonrdunn]

That's what I thought. How then - the scenario that forced me to go this route in the first place, which is setting up a smart home switch that only supports 2.4Ghz - can I force my phone onto 2.4Ghz so the app can see the smart home switch? Hiding the SSID won't force it to drop from 5Ghz to 2.4Ghz, but it needs to be on 2.4Ghz to find and setup the smart home switch. So how is this a soution to the original problem?

[SW_]

One solution is to setup an old WiFi router in AP mode with a dedicated SSID for these 2.4Ghz IoT devices.  Just pick a different 2.4Ghz channel.  Use a tool like NetSpot to find out which channel is free to use.  Then let the Orbi handle the rest of the clients.

[jasonrdunn]

It grinds my gears to have to buy and deploy another AP just to work around Orbi's stubborn refusal to allow customers to just have two different networks. I appreciate the suggestion though.

[SW_]

Yeah - will agree with you.

A good N router is ~$20 or cheaper from eBay if you don't have an old router lying around.  It will likely cost even more to replace Orbi with a different Mesh product that allows you to separate SSIDs.

The other option would be to roll back to a previous FW version that works for you and disable Auto Update.

[FURRYe38]

Separation of SSID on any Orbi system is Not supported. 

NG has made some allowances for users with 2.4Ghz only IoT devices. Disable the 5G SSID Broadcast under Advanced Tab/Advanced Settings/Wireless Settings buy de-selecting the check box. Apply. This disables the 5G ssid long enough for both IoT and setup mobile device to be connected to the 2.4Ghz SSID at the same time to get it setup. After setup, then re-enable the 5G SSID broadcast. 

This is a IoT Mfr issue, not Orbi. Its there setup software that fails to recognize or allow any setup mobile device to connect to a 5G SSID while the IoT gets connected to the 2.4G SSID. This IoT software is limited by it's requirement of having the setup mobile device connected to a 2.4Ghz SSID while being connected to a 5Ghz SSID is ON THE SAME NETWORK as the 2.4Ghz SSID. These IoT Mfrs fail to realize this. This is a IoT MFr problem and not a Orbi problem. 

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@sgrayban wrote:

That's not a fix...

There many are reasons many IoT devices will not work with a common SSID name which is why a separate SSID is required. I have a few devices that refuse to connect to a common 5/2.4GHZ single named SSID. This is just wrong plain and simple.

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[FURRYe38]

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Downgrading FW probably doesn't fix this. This is a IoT mfr issue dealing with IoT setup software and setup mobile devices being connected to 5Ghz SSID rather instead of 2.4Ghz which these IoT setup software seem to require, though on Orbi, 2.4 and 5G SSID are on the same network.  Something IoT mfrs fail to recognize. 

Most N routers are not MESH or Orbi and some don't have Smart Connect features like Orbi does. 

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@SW_ wrote:

Yeah - will agree with you.

A good N router is ~$20 or cheaper from eBay if you don't have an old router lying around.  It will likely cost even more to replace Orbi with a different Mesh product that allows you to separate SSIDs.

The other option would be to roll back to a previous FW version that works for you and disable Auto Update.

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[michaelkenward]

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@jasonrdunn wrote:

How then - the scenario that forced me to go this route in the first place, which is setting up a smart home switch that only supports 2.4Ghz - can I force my phone onto 2.4Ghz so the app can see the smart home switch?

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Easy.

• Turn off 5 GHz SSID broadcast
• Pick up phone
• Go to wifi settings and tell it to forget the connection to the Orbi's SSID
• Tell phone to connect to the Orbi (it will see and use the 2.4 GHz SSID)
• Set up IoT thing
• Turn on 5 GHz SSID broadcast
• The next time your mobile phone connects to the Orbi it should find, and use, 5 GHz.

There is one other option, forget about the Orbi. Go to the bottom of the garden (backyard), with luck the wifi client won't be able to connect to 5 GHz. Too far away. See if you can set up the IoT thing.

The other option, of course, is to shout at whoever wrote the hopeless setup software for your IoT thing and tell them to join the 21st century.

[michaelkenward]

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@jasonrdunn wrote:

....Orbi's stubborn refusal to allow customers to just have two different networks.

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You seem to have missed the point of the Orbi technology and Mesh in general. If you don't want its features, buy a different router.

Maybe someone can suggest a Mesh system that meets your needs. If it exists.

[jasonrdunn]

No offense FURRYe38 but telling a Netgear customer that it's the fault of the IoT industy and all of THEM have to change how they do things isn't very practical. I agree with you that all IoT devices should support both 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz frequencies, but that would require different chipsets and drive up the cost of every IoT device - so it's not surprising that they don't want to do this. Plus, there's no advantage to supporting 5Ghz on smart switches; worse range than 2.4Ghz, no need for the extra bandwidth. So why would they go this route?

If you read my above message, I don't see how disabling the 5Ghz SSID would help - my phone running the IoT setup app isn't going to drop to 2.4Ghz because I hide the 5Ghz SSID will it? I haven't tested this, so if I'm wrong I'd be happy to find a solution that worked. From what I know about WiFi devices it wouldn't work though. 

Overall though, this is on Netgear, and their refusal to come up with a real solution means my next router won't be a Netgear.

[FURRYe38]

IoTs don't have to change chipsets. This isn't a chip set issue. its a setup software or IoT app issue. The IoT hardware cares less of the 5Ghz frequancy. The IoT will never see it. It's the setup mobile device and the IoT software app that is the problem. The IoT app is designed around there product being on 2.4Ghz. When the setup mobile device is connected to 5G, this app or software, for unknown reasons fails to recognize or it limting the setup mobile device, thought it's technically connected to the same network as if it was connected to a 2.4Ghz SSID, causes the problem. This app or software seems to not detect anything while the mobile devices is on a 5Ghz SSID. We know this as others have said that they were able to get there 2.4G IoTs finally connected to Orbi after temporarily disabling the 5G SSID broadcast, this forces the setup mobile app to the 2.4Ghz SSID long enough for the app to now detects it's IoT device and complete the setup. 

This is not a chipset issue with the IoT device or with Orbi. This is a IoT software or app handling issue while the setup mobile device is on a 5G SSID connection rather than it being on a 2.4G SSID connection with the IoT device. 

[SW_]

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

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Downgrading FW probably doesn't fix this. This is a IoT mfr issue dealing with IoT setup software and setup mobile devices being connected to 5Ghz SSID rather instead of 2.4Ghz which these IoT setup software seem to require, though on Orbi, 2.4 and 5G SSID are on the same network.  Something IoT mfrs fail to recognize. 

Most N routers are not MESH or Orbi and some don't have Smart Connect features like Orbi does. 

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@SW_ wrote:

Yeah - will agree with you.

A good N router is ~$20 or cheaper from eBay if you don't have an old router lying around.  It will likely cost even more to replace Orbi with a different Mesh product that allows you to separate SSIDs.

The other option would be to roll back to a previous FW version that works for you and disable Auto Update.

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Downgrading Orbi to an older FW version might not work if you pick the wrong version to roll back.  Although it's not offically supported, others including myself, had gotten separate SSIDs to work on FW version v2.2.1.210, which was prior to Micky Circle and BitDefender came onboard the Orbi.  Those of us deploying Orbi in AP Mode could stay on v2.2.1.210 indefinitely if we must have separate SSIDs.

I had decided to move on from v2.2.1.210 because I found a solution, which was suggested above.  That solution might not be acceptable for everyone, but it works magic for me.  It's too easy to point finger at the other products/vendors, but that won't solve the problem at hand.

I would not hold my breath for NG to enable this feature given Orbi is about to be EOL.  A good reason for NG to support separate SSIDs would be a result of competition.  For examples, Ethernet Backhaul and Daisy-Chain.

[FURRYe38]

Thats ok too. For those who want to do that. Separating SSID has seen unexpected problems as well. In the long run, it's just not supported and NG doesn't want to seem to want to give this to users. Maybe a chipset limiation, design or something that support doesn't want to deal with. 

Again this is not a NG issue. It is a IoT issue in there setup app software so given that this issue has been on going for past two years and users historical complaints, NG has given users a way to get there IoTs connected as mentioned. This seems to work for these users. The main issue is the IoT Mfrs who need and could and can address this with there software. Could make allowances for IoT setup app to work on setup mobile devices to work on either 2.4 or 5G SSIDs while the IoT device connects to 2.4G SSID. When this happens then I bet you won't see much users posting having problems getting there IoTs connected. 

[SW_]

Orbi firmware is just a stripped down version of Nighthawk firmware.  Given it's supported on Nighthawk and on prior Orbi firmwares, which NG has since taken steps to disable it in newer versions.  The argument that this isn't an issue with NG might not hold water in some quarters or point the finger the other way.  A simple justification for NG to do so is to cut cost and to keep Orbi (firmware) simple to setup, which I fully understand.

Basically, NG has to make sure that each SSID will work for each band, not only for fronthaul, but also WiFi backhaul, Ethernet backhaul, Daisy-Chain, etc.,  Then it has to deal with when both SSIDs are same, which isn't the same case as single SSID.  Recall "config sync loop" madness due to dual SSIDs hack?

Given NG is busy marching toward the Next Gen Orbi while trying to get those firmwares stable, there's no incentive for NG to support dual SSIDs in the near term if ever.

[FURRYe38]

Yes, we know Orbi FW is based off Caos Calmer code. 

The argument may not be an issue for R and XR series router to hold water, however those routers offer the user to disable Smart Connect. WIth Orbi, Smart Connect is always enabled. So with other NG router, IoT isn't an issue and isn't seen as users do have the ability to disable SC and connect there devices all to a separate2.4Ghz radio. Again, this avoids the real problem of IoT Mfrs not dealing or handling Orbi with SC always enabled and setup devcies connected to 5Ghz SSIDs.

So, as you meation, yes there are "config sync" issues with users separating SSIDs. The SC and all the other Orbi features are designed and expecting the system to be using smart connect and a single SSID. This is the intented design put forth by NG and at least for Orbi, it's how wireless MESH and NG wants and needs this system to work. And for the most part, does work as intended. When it comes to wireless MESH, there are differences from that of non MESH systems. 

Been many complaints and issues over the years. Users asking for the ability to disable SC and add ReadyUSB media support for Orbi AC modesl. NG finally relented some to givings users the ability to temporarily disable 5G SSID. ReadyUSB has still not appeared and going forward with all the business of new AX and what it brings to the table. NG has enough to deal with and Orbi AC will probably not see any USB support for media streaming at all IMO. This would probably add another lay of complexities that NG probably just doesn't want to deal with on Orbi. I think things are busy enough for what NG has to deal with. USB isn't even avialble on Orbi AX. If that tells you anything.

[SW_]

That's why it's important to have competition! 

Anyway, I had attempted to disable band steering a while back, but didn't follow through after I had found a simpler solution for my use case.  Check out this how to disable band steering via telnet cmd if you're fearless!

[jasonrdunn]

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@michaelkenward wrote:

• Turn off 5 GHz SSID broadcast
• Pick up phone
• Go to wifi settings and tell it to forget the connection to the Orbi's SSID
• Tell phone to connect to the Orbi (it will see and use the 2.4 GHz SSID)
• Set up IoT thing
• Turn on 5 GHz SSID broadcast
• The next time your mobile phone connects to the Orbi it should find, and use, 5 GHz.

---

Tried that. I was hopeful, but as I expected, when my phone connects to the one and only SSID showing up, it still connects at 5Ghz - because the SSID is the same, the WiFi chipset on the phone latches onto the 5Ghz network (confirmed by looking at the devices list, and by the failure of the IoT software to set it up). Hiding the SSID doesn't actually change the availability of the 5Ghz network. In fact, I'd argue this setting does nothing at all because without a unique SSID for the 5Ghz network, hiding something that is the same as the 2.4Ghz has no effect. Has anyone actually gotten this to work?

@michaelkenward wrote:There is one other option, forget about the Orbi. Go to the bottom of the garden (backyard), with luck the wifi client won't be able to connect to 5 GHz. Too far away. See if you can set up the IoT thing.

Tried that the first month I got my Orbi, and it didn't work because the phone has to be within range of the IoT device.

[jasonrdunn]

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@michaelkenward wrote:

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You seem to have missed the point of the Orbi technology and Mesh in general. If you don't want its features, buy a different router.

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How so? Mesh simply links two routers together for enhanced coverage; it has nothing to do with the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz networks being on the same SSID. The Orbi has worked great with the split SSID for two years. The idea of having one network SSID is great, but it's not flexible enough to cover all situations for all people...hence this thread.

[FURRYe38 · Accepted solution]

I can confirm that this method does work with one additional step: V38 FW loaded.

@michaelkenward wrote:

• Turn off 5 GHz SSID broadcast. You must wait for about 1-1.5 minutes for the change to take effect. 
• Pick up phone/pad.
• Go to wifi settings and tell it to forget the connection to the Orbi's SSID
• Turn OFF WiFi radio on the phone or pad for 5 seconds. Then turn the wifi radio back on.
• Tell phone to connect to the Orbi (it will see and use the 2.4 GHz SSID)
• Set up IoT thing
• Turn on 5 GHz SSID broadcast
• The next time your mobile phone connects to the Orbi it should find, and use, 5 GHz.

Please see attached screen capture of my iPhone connected to 2.4Ghz after the 5Ghz SSID Broadcast name was disabled. 

[Xiscake]

Dear Netgear,

I dont understand why you would do this.

Having to telnet into the router to split the ssids was uncomfortable, but passable. But with the latest firmware your product, for many of us, stops making the cut.

I will be trying to downgrade the firmware (which is less than ideal) and if any security issues arise or the product continues to be cumbersome and inconvenient, I will dump it on the second hand market and switch brands to someone that listens to the community and is able to implement TRIVIAL features.

I trully dont understand why, after so many years of asking for this, instead of developing it, you would block it. Its just ridiculous.