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Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Dries2
Guide

RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

 

Hi all,

I've bought the RBK821 (RBR850+RBS850) combo, but it has given me quite some headache...

 

I already have a router installed (Fritz!Boz 7590) which needs to function as a router, because it offers some functionalities not available in the Netgear Orbi system. So my idea was to set up the RBR850 as an Access Point. The satellite (RBS850) should be connected via ethernet, assumming this is a more reliable backhaul (3 concrete walls separate both devices).

 

I did the initial setup using the Orbi app, and then made the more 'advanced' settings (set RBR850 as AP) using the web-interface. When this was set up, I placed my satellite in it's final location, and connected it using ethernet.

 

My cabling setup was the following:

Orbi Router (as AP) -> WAN port -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router
Orbi Satellite -> LAN poort -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router

With this setup, however, I noticed that the satellite was not listed in the "Attached Devices". I also noticed that the handover between both devices (when I was walking around the house) was not going well. I had the feeling they were operating as two separate Access Point. My phone was connected to the AP with bad reception for way too long. I also noticed that configuration updates I made on the router (e.g. change the SSID) did not pass trought to the satellite.

 

I changed the cabling setup to the following:

Orbi Router (as AP) -> LAN port -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router
Orbi Satellite -> LAN poort -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router

I got inspired by this KB article.

 

Good news! Both devices were able to "see" each other. When navigating to "Attached Devices", the satellite was listed, status was good (and ethernet-based). 

 

However, a few hours later, when I checked my phone's wifi settings, I noticed that my Orbi-SSID was listed twice. One without any security type! Anyone could connect to my network!

 

I checked the settings on my router, and security type "WPA2-PSK[AES]" was set up. I navigated to my satellite, and there I saw that the 2.4Ghz band was secured (WPA2), but the 5Ghz band had no security. This is very strange, because there is no way you can define different security types as an end user (afaik).

 

I have found this article, where similar issues are described for another Orbi product of Netgear. I tried resetting the satellite several times, I have even reset my entire Orbi system and started from scratch... I always ended up with an unsecured 5Ghz SSID. The thread also described a Telnet option, but the commands didn't seem to take (nvram show | grep sectype) and also the person opening the thread said that resetting solved it.

 

So I went back to my initial cabling set up (using the WAN port), and reset everything. My security issue is now solved, but now I am back to my original problem: the router and satellite do not 'see' each other.

 

Is this a bug in the firmware? I'm currently using the latest available (V3.2.9.2_1.2.4)? Or am I missing something?

 

Any advice is welcome. I'm currently quite frustrated and considering to return the product.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Message 1 of 16

Accepted Solutions
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

What impractical cabling is preventing Senario #3? 

 

Your switch you have maybe a factor, thought its non managed, it has green ethernet features which causes problems for Orbi systems:https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/switches/small-business-100-series-unmanaged-switc...

We've seen issues before with users switches having green ethernet.

Any chance you have a different switch with out Green Ethernet features? 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CM2000 Modem | Wifi Router RBK752(v.5) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

View solution in original post

Message 9 of 16

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johnny5126
Aspirant

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

You should connect an ethernet cable from the routers LAN port to the LAN port on the satellite directly for a wired backhaul, not indirectly to a switch.

Message 2 of 16
Dries2
Guide

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Hi Johnny,

 

Thank you for your feedback.

Are you sure?

According to this KB article:

https://kb.netgear.com/000051205/What-is-Ethernet-backhaul-and-how-do-I-set-it-up-on-my-Orbi-WiFi-Sy...

it should be possible to have a switch in between.

Message 3 of 16
johnny5126
Aspirant

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Maybe but mines connected directly and I have no issues at all.
Message 4 of 16
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

What is the Mfr and model# of the ISP modem the NG router is connected too?

Some managed or green ethernet switches have problems with Orbi systems. 

 

What happens if you LAN wired connect the RBS to the RBR using this configuration? 

ISP Modem>RBR(AP mode, WAN port to Modem LAN port)>Switch(RBR LAN port to Switch LAN port)<>RBS

 

Please test the RBS directly connected to the RBR with out the switch to see if it appears in the attached devices screen. 

 

There is a known issue of having the RBR connected to a host router and the RBS connected thru a switch to the host router and not directly to the RBR. This happens as well with Orbi AC.


@Dries2 wrote:

Hi Johnny,

 

Thank you for your feedback.

Are you sure?

According to this KB article:

https://kb.netgear.com/000051205/What-is-Ethernet-backhaul-and-how-do-I-set-it-up-on-my-Orbi-WiFi-Sy...

it should be possible to have a switch in between.


 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CM2000 Modem | Wifi Router RBK752(v.5) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 5 of 16
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Yes direct connected should work. 


@johnny5126 wrote:
Maybe but mines connected directly and I have no issues at all.

 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CM2000 Modem | Wifi Router RBK752(v.5) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 6 of 16
Bandito
Luminary

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Why do you need the Fritzbox router on the switch?  The Fritzbox router should go directly into the WAN port on the Orbi router, then you can hang the switch off of the LAN port on the router and you should be okay, but It would still be better to directly connect the satellite to the Orbi router, just to be safe.

Message 7 of 16
Dries2
Guide

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Hi all,
Thank you for all your help!

 

First a practical remark: it is not very easy to do something about my cable-setup. All devices mentioned are in different rooms (often different floors) and e.g. installing an additional network cable that goes directly from my RBR850 to my RBS850 would involve drilling some holes in walls and ceilings. This is a scenario I would like to avoid (then I prefer two cheaper non-mesh access points instead).

 

Some more input on the devices involved:
* My switch is an unmanaged switch (Cisco SG102-24 Compact 24-Port Gigabit Switch)
* My router is a Fritz!Box 7590, which is connected to a cable-modem, a CBN CH6643E (provided by the ISP);

A direct link between the ISP modem and the RBR, as suggested by FURRYe38 is also not possible. First of all, the router needs to be in between. Secondly, my cable setting does not allow it (all cables from all rooms in the house go to one central location where my switch is. From there, it is connected to the router, which is connected to the modem).

 

And also the scenario where I would connect the router to the WAN port of the RBR850 and the switch to the LAN port is not possible, because they are not in the same room.

 

An overview of the scenario's I have tried + outcome.

 

Scenario 1:
Setup:
* Orbi Router (WAN port) -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router
* Orbi Satellite (LAN port) -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router
Outcome:
- Satellite is not listed in "attached devices" => no mesh;
+ All Wifi SSID's are secured;

 

Scenario 2:
Setup:
* Orbi Router (LAN port) -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router
* Orbi Satellite (LAN port) -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router
Outcome:
+ Satellite is listed in "attached devices" => mesh;
- The 5Ghz network broadcasted by the satellite is unsecured;

 

Scenario 3:
Setup:
* Orbi Router (WAN port) -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router
* Orbi Satellite (LAN port) -> Orbi Router (LAN port);
(for testing purposes - not able to have this as a final setup due to impractical cabling)
Outcome:
+ Satellite is listed in "attached devices" => mesh;
+ All Wifi SSID's are secured;

 

Scenario 4:
Setup:
* Orbi Router (LAN port) -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router
* Orbi Satellite (LAN port) -> Orbi Router (LAN port);
(for testing purposes - not able to have this as a final setup)
Outcome:
+ Satellite is listed in "attached devices" => mesh;
+ All Wifi SSID's are secured;


Scenario 5:
In this scenario, I introducted an additional switch ("B"), right next to the RBR850. Consider this the "think outside of the box" scenario.
Setup:
* Orbi Router (WAN port) -> Switch B -> Switch A -> Fritzbox Router
* Orbi Router (LAN port) -> Switch B -> Switch A -> Fritzbox Router
Yes, you saw that correctly, two cables from the RBR850 to the same switch!
* Orbi Satellite (LAN port) -> Switch A -> Fritzbox Router
Outcome:
° Not sure if it was mesh (see later);
+ All Wifi SSID's are secured;
So far, so good. However, some downsides:
* The network became very slow, even the wired parts. I also noticed that the RBR850 got two IP addresses assigned by the router. I'm guessing the router was working overtime trying to figure out what was happening.
* The GUI of the RBR850 became unreachable (I tried both IP addresses). So I could'n check "attached devices". However, there was a nice handover between both devices when I was walking around the house. So I guess I have mesh.
* The GUI of the RBS850 was accessible only if I was on the wifi of the RBS850. There I could verify that it could see the RBR850 and the both 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz wifi signals were secured.

 

For now, I'm reverting back to scenario 1.

 

The way I see it, is that this is something that can be solved in the next Orbi firmware release.

 

 

Message 8 of 16
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

What impractical cabling is preventing Senario #3? 

 

Your switch you have maybe a factor, thought its non managed, it has green ethernet features which causes problems for Orbi systems:https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/switches/small-business-100-series-unmanaged-switc...

We've seen issues before with users switches having green ethernet.

Any chance you have a different switch with out Green Ethernet features? 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CM2000 Modem | Wifi Router RBK752(v.5) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 9 of 16
Dries2
Guide

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Well... I'll be damned. I must admit I didn't buy your "it's your green switch" theory. How could a switch result in an unsecured SSID, right?

 

But I tried this, with positive outcome:

Setup:

* All other network devices -> Switch -> Fritzbox Router (LAN4)
* Orbi Router (LAN port) -> Fritzbox Router (LAN2)
* Orbi Satellite (LAN port) -> Fritzbox Router (LAN3);
Outcome:
+ Satellite is listed in "attached devices" => mesh;
+ All Wifi SSID's are secured;

 

So problem solved, I guess.

I don't really like the cabling setup. I think it is more "clean" to have everything go via the switch, with one cable to the router. But I can live with it.

 

I also believe that a firmware update could fix this issue as well. Depending on me using the WAN or LAN port of the RBR850 I was able to have a good (but unsecured) mesh network, or a secured (but non-mesh) network.

 

So @FURRYe38, thank you very much!!!

 

Message 10 of 16
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Awesome. 

 

Yes, Green Ethernet switch have been giving Orbi systems problems over the years. NG doesn't seem to want to do anything about it or maybe they can't. I don't know. Users in the Orbi AC forum found these to be the problem between there RBRs and RBSs so it's been one troubleshooting step I keep on the plate. Glad you configured it to work as expected. 

 

 Be sure to make a backup configuration to file for safe keeping. This saves time if a reset is needed. 

 

Enjoy. Smiley Wink

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CM2000 Modem | Wifi Router RBK752(v.5) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 11 of 16
Dries2
Guide

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Hmm...

One follow up question.

 

When I look at "connected satellites" I don't see any value in "Connected Orbi". I recall that in one of my previous "cable setups" it had the value "Orbi Router" in there.

 

https://i.ibb.co/MpVzpjS/2020-03-02-16-30-50.jpg 

 

I'm not sure if that is important, but I just noticed it.

Message 12 of 16
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

I'll have to check mine again today after work. I just got mine set up back in router mode yesterday on my main network. I didn't look at this box as I was just happen to both RBSs connected wired. Possible that wired vs wireless may be a factor on how that box gets used...Smiley Wink

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CM2000 Modem | Wifi Router RBK752(v.5) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 13 of 16
fangruoyuan
Guide

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Hello, I have the exact issue like you in my rbk 852. And I also have the internet disconnect (magenta light show) issue. Do you see the light show in your system(AP mode)

Message 14 of 16
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Please follow up here with your post:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-AX/TWO-ISSUES-FOR-ORBI-RBK852/td-p/1871913/jump-to/first-unrea...

 

Thank you. 


@fangruoyuan wrote:

Hello, I have the exact issue like you in my rbk 852. And I also have the internet disconnect (magenta light show) issue. Do you see the light show in your system(AP mode)


 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CM2000 Modem | Wifi Router RBK752(v.5) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 15 of 16
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: RBR850 - Access Point + wired backhaul & security issues

Well for my RBR the status reads "Orbi Router" for Connected Orbi section. However mines in router mode currently. Smiley Wink

Using Opera browser on Mac. 


@Dries2 wrote:

Hmm...

One follow up question.

 

When I look at "connected satellites" I don't see any value in "Connected Orbi". I recall that in one of my previous "cable setups" it had the value "Orbi Router" in there.

 

https://i.ibb.co/MpVzpjS/2020-03-02-16-30-50.jpg 

 

I'm not sure if that is important, but I just noticed it.


 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CM2000 Modem | Wifi Router RBK752(v.5) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

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