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PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

5g vs 2.4g

Dear netgear,

Please, please, please just let me connect selectively to 5g. Your algorithm to select "the best" band is driving me crazy!!! WTF!!! I just want to have the best speed whatsoever. I already tried tinkering with the settings for one month now. If I want to have burger for lunch, dont't force me to eat fish and chip!!! WTF!!!

 

Model: RBK50| Orbi AC3000 High-Performance Tri-Band WiFi System
Message 1 of 20

Accepted Solutions
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Netgear could simply do the exact same thing that Linksys did, that is to enable the separation of the 2.4 and 5g bands and let users choose their preferred band themselves. Even with this separation, users could still configure their devices to connect to BOTH bands if they still want their routers to decide for them. In my opinion, if I want hamburger for lunch, don't force me to settle for fish & chips! simple as ABC!

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Message 14 of 20

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FURRYe38
Guru

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

MESH systems are designed for single SSID and Smart connect. Would defeat this design and operation if it were to be changed.

 

If you need to have separate SSIDs for each radio and selectively use them, you should get a stand along wifi router.

 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 2 of 20
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Dear furryye38,

You should have known better to give such a lame and useless reply. If a normal router can serve me well, I wouldn't need to buy this orbi system.

Thanks but no thanks.
Model: RBK50| Orbi AC3000 High-Performance Tri-Band WiFi System
Message 3 of 20
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Dear furryye38,

In case you are not aware, which seems to be the case, the Linksys velop allow users to have separate ssid for the 2.4 and 5g bands. The velop is a true mesh system by the way.
You should educate yourself before replying to any post. Thanks.
Model: RBK50| Orbi AC3000 High-Performance Tri-Band WiFi System
Message 4 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Well then you chose wrong then. You might do more research on the design and characteristics of MESH and Smart Connect systems and the intended designed behind them before making a purchases next time to see if it really fits your needs. In the end its up to the buyers to determine what works best. Not to make design changes to an intended design to suite his or her needs.

 

Good Luck in your endeavours.

 

 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 5 of 20
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

The reason for my purchase was to end wifi dead spots, which the velop and orbi do quite well.Before my purchase, and according to what I've read, both promised FULL STRENGTH WIFI THROUGH MY HOUSE. My major issue is with how the resppective system's band steering work and how they could be inproved. In your mind, what does MESH and Smart Connect systems try to accomplish? As I've highlighted to you, Linksys allow users of the Velop to have separated SSIDS for the 2.4 and 5 g to give them this flexibility. This has nothing to do with the design of mesh systems.

Message 6 of 20
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

BTW, your said "MESH systems are designed for single SSID and Smart connect. Would defeat this design and operation if it were to be changed."

This is not true. Single SSID and smart connect has long been available on normal single routers.

Message 7 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Thats a given, why I mentioned it. The orbi isn't a stand alone router system. Those stand along routers are designed to disable Smart Connect. This isnt' the case with Orbi and it's MESH style system. 

 

Good Luck. 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 8 of 20
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Sorry to say this, but you are really not very well informed. Please read the following links.

 

https://www.tp-link.com/common/Promo/en/Smart-Connect/Smart-Connect.html

 

https://kb.netgear.com/25346/What-is-Smart-Connect-and-how-do-I-enable-or-disable-it-on-my-Nighthawk...

 

Smart connect, like I said are available on stand alone routers and isn't disabled as you imply. The orbi wasn't even advertised as having smart connect in the first place.

 

Anyway, the true main purpose of Mesh systems is to extend coverage of wifi without significant signal loss and speed as compared to repeaters and powerline network systems.

 

Single SSID isn't available exclusively to mesh systems.

 

GOOD LUCK TO YOU TOO! CHEERS.

Model: RBK50| Orbi AC3000 High-Performance Tri-Band WiFi System
Message 9 of 20
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Having tried both the Velop and Orbi in the same surrounding, I concluded that Band Steering (between 2.4 and 5g) or Smart connect as it is also called, is one major limitation of mesh wifi systems. While both the velop and orbi have their own strengths, the algorithm used by both to connect clients to the best band have much room for improvement. Even when standing near a node or satellite with a device in line of sight, 2.4g is often selected first. Can't understand why?

Message 10 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Band Steering known first when it appeared years ago outside of the USA, and then came to the USA as Smart Connect from Broadcom I believe, has always been somewhat problemtic with how it handles devices and connects them to the radios. It's up to Broadcom and router Mfrs who employ this technology and to weed out the problems seen. There are many factors and many devices out there, all with different capabilities so I presume there will be various issues seen during the development cycle. Seen it where devices do connect to 2.4Ghz first, then after a period of time where the device will re-connect to 5Ghz. Ya there always room for improvement when it comes to BandSteering or Smart Connect as it's known here. One SSID is the intended design for MESH systems from what I've seen and tested. I presume there is a reason behind it or Mfrs would give the option to disable it. My first MESH I couldn't do this either with a different Mfr, so seems to be something MESH systems are attempting to follow.


@PlatinumGoat wrote:

Having tried both the Velop and Orbi in the same surrounding, I concluded that Band Steering (between 2.4 and 5g) or Smart connect as it is also called, is one major limitation of mesh wifi systems. While both the velop and orbi have their own strengths, the algorithm used by both to connect clients to the best band have much room for improvement. Even when standing near a node or satellite with a device in line of sight, 2.4g is often selected first. Can't understand why?


 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 11 of 20
schumaku
Guru

Re: 5g vs 2.4g


@PlatinumGoat wrote:

Even when standing near a node or satellite with a device in line of sight, 2.4g is often selected first.


This is mostly depends on the WiFi client - for the same ESSID and the available BSSIDs on air, the client does maintain scoring list. Depending on the uptime, the 2.4GHz often become visible before, because of the band is narrow, and slightly less effort is required to evaluate all the 5 GHz bands.

 

If there is more bandwidth required and the 5 GHz BSSIDs are comparably in the score, the client does switch very quick.

 

Aside of doing all that, it does continuously scan for other ESSIDs, stored and unknown ones, and does also maintain a score for these.

 

One trick often implemented in the bandsteering is to kick-off poor or comparable low standard 5 GHz STA either to another 5 GHz radio where available (to concentrate these on a dedicated radio), otherwise to the 2.4 GHz band.

 

You simply can't expect that "your" preferred STA is immediately and always connected to what you expect to be the very best right away - like "plug" to the 10 GbE port of there are some 10/100MbE and GbE ports available. Regardless of the AP infrastructure.

Message 12 of 20
Retired_Member
Not applicable

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

The answer to all of this is to stop making devices that will only connect on a certain band.

Model: RBK53| Orbi Router + 2 Satellites Orbi WiFi System
Message 13 of 20
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Netgear could simply do the exact same thing that Linksys did, that is to enable the separation of the 2.4 and 5g bands and let users choose their preferred band themselves. Even with this separation, users could still configure their devices to connect to BOTH bands if they still want their routers to decide for them. In my opinion, if I want hamburger for lunch, don't force me to settle for fish & chips! simple as ABC!

View solution in original post

Message 14 of 20
schumaku
Guru

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

One network name (one ESSID) and many radios on 2.4 and 5 GHz with individual BSSIDs are much better in any aspect: Radio steering. Band streering. Usability. Fast re-connect. Fast roaming. Plenty of advantages. Support. Mantenance. TCO. Ideally on many APs operated on reduced power to avoid interference. So afraid, I can't back your idea:

 

 

Spoiler

Individual names for each band or even worse for each individual radio are a relict from the past.

Yes - I was the bad guy who forced Netgear to remove the ***** limitation not allowing the same network name on multiple interfaces on the same router, the same extender. I would not even had considered to deploy Netgear routers or APs with such a limitation in place. Yes - even extenders here run on the very same name here - the bridging "logic" below is BSSID resp. MAC based anyway.

Message 15 of 20
schumaku
Guru

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Here in La La Land we're a little bit back in time, and on our mobile networks we're manually tuning our mobile phones to the frequency of what we think is the best frequency and least loaded cell, too. 

 

I'm happy to be a networking novice along with many customers and friends using wireless and network infrastructures I had the pleasure to participate on the design, lead the set-up, and bring to operational level - in a range from a hand full to some 250'000 user (plus some 150'000 industrial devices) organisations. No CIO, CTO, or CEO ever complained that his "boss"-computer did associate with a wrong AP and was performing poor therefore. 

 

You read like the NAS user who wrote "I have configured my NAS with a RAID1. I can see the folders and files on one disk only. How can I check what's on the second disk?". These are **** consumer ideas. 

 

The re-association (to avoid the tech term "roaming" which has a special meaning) of a WiFi STA within a single network name (ESSID) between the different virtual radios (represented by the BSSIDs) is running on a much higher priority and thus much more dynamic than the change to a different network name. While a WiFi STA is asociated to a network (ESSID), it requires much more to change the network - the signal level and quality must become much worse before the client does re-associate to a different network name. With different ESSIDs, a mobile phone say on it's way home does first pick up the 2.4 GHz due to the physical higher reach/coverage. Now the mobile phone does try to stick on the same network. As there are no alternate BSSIDs - because of the **** consumer ideas - the phone will stick with the 2.4 GHz network - the coverage, the signal, almost everything is better. And it must be considered almost a wonder that it ever goes to change to another network ESSID, even if this would be a much more performing 5 GHz virtual radio.

 

Even when leaving band/radio steering and fast roaming capabilities away - as we have it on typical dumb consumer wireless devices - a client will change much faster to another BSSID within the same network. With all the "smart" plus the standardised helpers in place, you can smoothly walk around in the while doing a VoIP call, even with video conferencing - there will be no interruptions or hanging/lagging video streams. Everything happens within the very same network (ESSID).

Message 16 of 20
Rattler
Guide

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

Hey Guys...Chill. It is possilbe to set up different SSID's for 2.4 and 5Ghz on Orbi. I did it and it even survived firmware updates except for the latest beta. Even though I used it this way for months, I have reverted back to a single SSID just to see how it works out for a while.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/orbi/comments/5svxmy/howto_configure_different_ssids_for_24_and_5ghz/

Message 17 of 20
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

https://community.netgear.com/t5/user/viewprofilepage/user-id/169225

 

I may be wrong, but it seems that if your device is in a position whereby you can receive signal from both the router and satellite, performance is greatly diminished. Inteferrence of signals?

Message 18 of 20
schumaku
Guru

Re: 5g vs 2.4g


@PlatinumGoat wrote:

Netgear could simply do the exact same thing that Linksys did, that is to enable the separation of the 2.4 and 5g bands and let users choose their preferred band themselves.

 


How can this be a solution? If this idea would be part of the technology and standards design - why do most Wi-Fi client STA drivers don't have a control to force it to stick on either the 2.4 or the 5 GHz band? Some advanced drivers allow the configuration of a client to prefer (but not fix) either the 2.4 or the 5 GHz band - but tht's all.

 

Similar, some 5+ billions of mobile phones have no controls on what band the user does prefer - neither for 2G, 3G, 4G, coming up 5G, or 2.4 GHz or 5 GHz Wi-Fi.

 

The design of one network name (ESSID) and many BSSIDs (Radio MAC) allowing the clients (to some extent assisted by the access points) to evaluate signal performance and quality and allowing fast roaming is perfectly right. There is no need to guide non-educated users to bad configurations - as it was forced by many vendors in the past on consumer routers. What you are seeking for is a relict from the past. 

Message 19 of 20
PlatinumGoat
Apprentice

Re: 5g vs 2.4g

When I had the Velop, before exchanging it for the orbi, I could configure as I wished. The layout and situation in every home is unique and no vendor can claim superiority that their tech is relevant in every case. With the Velop configured into 2 separate networks, I was able to obtain MAXIMUM ISP speeds in every coner of my home. This was and still is my primary objective. I dont't really care about every tech jargon about benefits of ONE SSID or BSSID (whatever that means). As long as I get what I paid for, I'm happy. BTW, I traded the Velop for the Orbi for some other reasons. Thanks anyway.

Message 20 of 20
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