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Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

gr8sho
Virtuoso

Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

Hello,  When I was reading reviews for this product there were two features that drew me to it.  One was the 3rd band for dedicated wireless Ethernet backhaul.  The second was for MU-MIMO support, which Apple recommends for its devices.  Oddly this feature is apparently off by default.  Can someone explain this choice to me?  I'm going to switch this on along with the other two options on offer unless someone has strong recommendation against.  Generally I'm in favor of keeping devices like this in as close to factory default state as possible.

 

Model: RBK50| Orbi AC3000 High-Performance Tri-Band WiFi System
Message 1 of 18
Chuck_M
Mentor

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

I suspect it was to conserve resources since the majority probably dont need it.  Works great with it on (on my install)

Message 2 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

MIMO is disabled by default since MIMO isn't supported on every device. Espeically for older devices. So there is a check box in the routers web page to enable or disable it as needed. Check with your devices mfr to see what is supported for MIMO. 


@gr8sho wrote:

Hello,  When I was reading reviews for this product there were two features that drew me to it.  One was the 3rd band for dedicated wireless Ethernet backhaul.  The second was for MU-MIMO support, which Apple recommends for its devices.  Oddly this feature is apparently off by default.  Can someone explain this choice to me?  I'm going to switch this on along with the other two options on offer unless someone has strong recommendation against.  Generally I'm in favor of keeping devices like this in as close to factory default state as possible.

 


 

Message 3 of 18
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

What you're saying is MU-MIMI feature being enabled will somehow cause older devices to be unable to connect to WiFi.  So far everything I've tried works including devices dating back to 2008.  Unless I don't understand what and how MU-MIMO works as this particlur tech is new to me.

Model: RBK50| Orbi AC3000 High-Performance Tri-Band WiFi System
Message 4 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

No, just taking advantage of MIMO takes both router and device to support it. Some users don't have MIMO on there devices so this feature can be distabled. If it's working for you then of course, keep it enabled. 

 

Message 5 of 18
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices


@FURRYe38 wrote:

No, just taking advantage of MIMO takes both router and device to support it. Some users don't have MIMO on there devices so this feature can be distabled. If it's working for you then of course, keep it enabled. 

 


Yeah, okay that makes sense.  But then my point about default is still there and especially given the ubiquitous aspect of Apple devices in a household.  I bet many Orbi users never venture into the management console let along Advanced wireless settings to enable what I feel to be an invaluable feature.

Message 6 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

Maybe. It's all up to the user. Hard to tell what users are doing aside from the ones that come here for help. 

Message 7 of 18
Chuck_M
Mentor

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices


@gr8sho wrote:

But then my point about default is still there and especially given the ubiquitous aspect of Apple devices in a household.  I bet many Orbi users never venture into the management console let along Advanced wireless settings to enable what I feel to be an invaluable feature.


Remember, we, in this community forum dont speak for or represent Netgear... we are just a bunch of people trying to help others.  Your question is valid but also rhetorical (to this audience).

Message 8 of 18
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

That's fine.  I've been doing forums a long time, and I get it.  Also know that Netgear folk also read here.  I'd certainly be interested in hearing more about it.  Like I said earlier, many are probably missing out on what I consider a very worthwhile feature.

 

As an aside relating to defaults, I read in another thread a suggestion to put the router/modem/gateway the Orbi is connected to in DMZ.  This was by a user and not by NG.  I haven't done an exhaustive scan of the website, but likewise haven't seen any mention or recommendation to configure the host router the Orbi is connected to in DMZ+ or IP Passthrough mode.  I realize that by not doing so makes the install mostly trivial, but by the same token I believe it to be less effecient.

 

Cheers

 

Message 9 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

DMZ and IP PassThrough is only for users with ISP modems with built in routers that have these features. This is a setup troubleshooting step for those users with these kinds of modems. If the modem can't be bridged or the DMZ doen't work well on the modem, The alternative would be have the user get into a stand alone modem or use the Orbi in AP Mode with this modem/router combo units. Smiley Wink

Message 10 of 18
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices


@FURRYe38 wrote:

DMZ and IP PassThrough is only for users with ISP modems with built in routers that have these features. This is a setup troubleshooting step for those users with these kinds of modems. If the modem can't be bridged or the DMZ doen't work well on the modem, The alternative would be have the user get into a stand alone modem or use the Orbi in AP Mode with this modem/router combo units. Smiley Wink


True, but there are lots of instances where this can and should be done.  Both ATT and Comcast have built-in routers with their modems and gateways.  The installation videos I've seen are very quaint and just show a person connecting the Ethernet cable to an available port on the modem/router/gateway.  While I'd actually prefer to completely bypass my own gateway, that's not possible with a VDSL2 connection,  But eventually with Fiber I technically could, however some ISPs like ATT don't support that configuration.  Also if you have IPTV you're stuck using their gateway to manage IGMP3 traffic.  Setting the gateway to IP Passthrough is the correct way to install the Orbi IMHO in these cases although as pointed, a true bridge mode would be preferred.

In case it's not obvious, I have a rather strong distaste for the routers in the devices provided by ISPs and would never contemplate wasing the Orbi to operate as an access point.

Model: RBK50| Orbi AC3000 High-Performance Tri-Band WiFi System
Message 11 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

Well as we get information about the users ISP setup, then this would be handle by case by case. Not everyone has a modem router combo and depending upon ISP, some ISPs don't allow access to the modem as well. 

I do ask most users about there modems and when they respond with what we can identify there modem as having a built in router, then I usually give options for configuring the modem and Orbi for use with it. This includes the DMZ and AP mode options. All this is left up to the User as we can only tread so far in to the ISP Modem territory. Smiley Wink


@gr8sho wrote:

@FURRYe38 wrote:

DMZ and IP PassThrough is only for users with ISP modems with built in routers that have these features. This is a setup troubleshooting step for those users with these kinds of modems. If the modem can't be bridged or the DMZ doen't work well on the modem, The alternative would be have the user get into a stand alone modem or use the Orbi in AP Mode with this modem/router combo units. Smiley Wink


True, but there are lots of instances where this can and should be done.  Both ATT and Comcast have built-in routers with their modems and gateways.  The installation videos I've seen are very quaint and just show a person connecting the Ethernet cable to an available port on the modem/router/gateway.  While I'd actually prefer to completely bypass my own gateway, that's not possible with a VDSL2 connection,  But eventually with Fiber I technically could, however some ISPs like ATT don't support that configuration.  Also if you have IPTV you're stuck using their gateway to manage IGMP3 traffic.  Setting the gateway to IP Passthrough is the correct way to install the Orbi IMHO in these cases although as pointed, a true bridge mode would be preferred.

In case it's not obvious, I have a rather strong distaste for the routers in the devices provided by ISPs and would never contemplate wasing the Orbi to operate as an access point.


 

Message 12 of 18
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices


@FURRYe38 wrote:

Well as we get information about the users ISP setup, then this would be handle by case by case. Not everyone has a modem router combo and depending upon ISP, some ISPs don't allow access to the modem as well. 

I do ask most users about there modems and when they respond with what we can identify there modem as having a built in router, then I usually give options for configuring the modem and Orbi for use with it. This includes the DMZ and AP mode options. All this is left up to the User as we can only tread so far in to the ISP Modem territory. Smiley Wink



 


Right on.  To make matters more interesting, I read a few days ago some ISPs are working towards a device that will integrate gateway with ONT for new Fiber installs.  I don't think I like that and prefer more control over my home network.

 

Cheers

Message 13 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

Ya there is talk over on DSLreports about how Xfinity and Intel and some others are trying to get the whole home thing all integrated so all devices and ISP services are all connected and manged in to one system. Leaves the question about whats private and what isn't and whos looking at your data and looking thru your devices. Smiley Frustrated Not a fan either. 


@gr8sho wrote:

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Well as we get information about the users ISP setup, then this would be handle by case by case. Not everyone has a modem router combo and depending upon ISP, some ISPs don't allow access to the modem as well. 

I do ask most users about there modems and when they respond with what we can identify there modem as having a built in router, then I usually give options for configuring the modem and Orbi for use with it. This includes the DMZ and AP mode options. All this is left up to the User as we can only tread so far in to the ISP Modem territory. Smiley Wink



 


Right on.  To make matters more interesting, I read a few days ago some ISPs are working towards a device that will integrate gateway with ONT for new Fiber installs.  I don't think I like that and prefer more control over my home network.

 

Cheers


 

Message 14 of 18
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices


@FURRYe38 wrote:

Ya there is talk over on DSLreports about how Xfinity and Intel and some others are trying to get the whole home thing all integrated so all devices and ISP services are all connected and manged in to one system. Leaves the question about whats private and what isn't and whos looking at your data and looking thru your devices. Smiley Frustrated Not a fan either. 




Then it will come down to ToS (terms of service).  One clear preference I see with Comcast at least is they allow you to buy your own modem.  If you want to do business with ATT, you have to lease their equipment, no ifs, ands or buts. 

Message 15 of 18
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

Yep. Thankfully there are other ISPs so for now, there is choice. 

Message 16 of 18
ekhalil
Master

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices


@gr8sho wrote:

.......... The second was for MU-MIMO support, which Apple recommends for its devices.  Oddly this feature is apparently off by default.  Can someone explain this choice to me?  I'm going to switch this on along with the other two options on offer unless someone has strong recommendation against.  Generally I'm in favor of keeping devices like this in as close to factory default state as possible.

 


Regarding MU-MIMO settings:
MU-MIMO (Multi-User MIMO) should not be mixed with MIMO. MIMO is actived always in Orbi. Orbi has 2x2 design and can support up to 2 spatial streams.So using MIMO Orbi can transmit and receive data streams to/from capable devices using two antennas and thus achieve higher throughput.
Most mobile phones support max of 2x2 spatial. Latest iPhone XS supports only 2x2 spatial streams. 
MU-MIMO is something totally different! MU-MIMO uses a special form of beamforming (on 5 GHz band only) to enable multiple devices to share the same Wi-Fi airtime, so you need at least two MU-MIMO devices to get any benefit from MU-MIMO.
Important to note is that -practically- many 4x4 based designs support only up to three simultaneous devices, 3x3 designs support up to two, 2x2 designs (e.g. Orbi) can't support any in most cases! Orbi has capability to provide peak throughput gain with two single-stream devices for few device types that have “correct” chipset.
In fact, for most cases with most of available devices, MU-MIMO provides no significant benefit. And in other cases, it can result in degraded Wi-Fi throughput! That's why it's disabled by default in Orbi as well as in most of other wifi router manufacturers.
So in summary the MU-MIMO in a router is like 3D in a TV, isn't costing us extra anymore but certainly not always adding a value or a reason to prefer one product over another.

Message 17 of 18
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Advanced Wireless Settings - odd default choices

@ekhalil 

I have to say despite my efforts to understand this MU-MIMO stuff, it feels somewhat illusive.  If both the iPhone X and the RBK50 support 2x2, can I assume with the MU-MIMO feature enabled, that the iPhone is getting that kind of connection.  I'm not expecting all my device to get such a connection if they are not capable, but I at least expect it for the iPhone.  I have no way to visibly confirm this?

 

And thanks for the lengthy post.

Message 18 of 18
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