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Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

JMU1998
Luminary

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

How is your experience with Ubiquity thus far compared to Orb? Similar issues new issues?
Message 51 of 252
Hirrdgoon
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

I setup a Unifi network.

 

So i have the Unifi Security Gateway, only 1 UAP-AC-Pro access point and the clould key to control it all.

 

Pros

- Way better visibility and controll of the network

- Cheaper overall for my setup than orbi

- Wired passthrough on the access points

- Ability to upgrade and add more devices for low cost

- Rock solid

- Lots of firmware upgrades

-PoE devices!!!

 

Cons

- Difficult to setup (until i got the cloud key)

- Speed is not as high as orbi at the moment, need to tweak it.

- coverage is not a large, but i only have 1 access point. Adding more solves this and the speed issue

 

 

 

Unifi is an enterprise solution, the orbi is and end user solution. Both work well.

 

Message 52 of 252
Dan_H
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

I wouldn't call unifi enterprise, more like prosumer. Too many features are not implemented and support is no where near enterprise solutions. Nice stuff though I am not knocking it, just saying it's really not enterprise. I use a USG-PRO-4 and unifi switches btw, and will be grabbing a couple UAP-HDs in April. Still though for wireless backhaul the Orbi is beast. I get 400Mbps download on a iPhone off the satellite!
Message 53 of 252
rafale7
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

I would be interested in the Orbi but not without the ethernet backhaul.

My use case justifies using both: Most of my house is already wired. It is currently networked using individual APs each broadcasting the same SSID but on different channels not to interfere with one another (aka "roaming network")

My use case is this: For those locations with ethernet, I want to use ethernet as a backhaul just to minimise latency and maximize the wireless backhaul bandwidth for the satellites which will be using it. My purpose is to maximise speed not just for internet access but for streaming within my home network.

Say you have one unit with 3 satelites, Having all 3 on the backhaul will strangle the bandwidth of the one unit connected through wire if all 3 are streaming. If one unit is wired, that bandwidth is freed and that unit can send data straight to my NAS for example without the data going through the wired unit leaving wireless and wired bandwidth for the other 2 satelites connected wirelessly. These units will be used as bridge and repeaters.

I could use multiple APs to also create bridged networks and repeaters but the advantage of having it all under the orbi system would be band steering.

So in conclusion, the lack of this feature is the single reason why I am not buying it...

Message 54 of 252
st_shaw
Master

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

If you already have most of your house wired, and you use individual APs with one SSID and separate channels, then you already have an optimal setup, and have no need for Orbi.  If your issue is that you want to manage everything under one interface, then buy a couple Ubiquiti APs and a Cloud Key to run the Unifi controller.  With wires already in place, this will be a better setup than Orbi, even if Orbi added wired backhaul.  I have both Orbi and Ubiquiti systems at two separate sites, so I am thoroughly familiar with both platforms.

Message 55 of 252

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

100% agree orbi is not designed for those with structured cabling in place , its for those that dont have it or cant have it for various and many reasons

 

nothing and i repeat nothing is better than wires and ap's

Message 56 of 252
rafale7
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

I am not arguing the fact that wires are better. You guys don't seem to want to look at this use case where I want to use wires when wires are available but they don't always are. So the benefit of the wired backhaul is to be able to use both as needed. I would have some on wireless as the orbi has been orginally designed for, and some on wired. Yes, there are cheaper solutions for wired, but they don't address my wireless case. So I want to have an efficient way to cover both...

 

You both don't have to be so thick about it. It may not apply to you but others do see a benefit from it. Many other mesh offerings have this option by the way.

Message 57 of 252
st_shaw
Master

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul


@rafale7 wrote:

I am not arguing the fact that wires are better. You guys don't seem to want to look at this use case where I want to use wires when wires are available but they don't always are. So the benefit of the wired backhaul is to be able to use both as needed. I would have some on wireless as the orbi has been orginally designed for, and some on wired. Yes, there are cheaper solutions for wired, but they don't address my wireless case. So I want to have an efficient way to cover both...

 

You both don't have to be so thick about it. It may not apply to you but others do see a benefit from it. Many other mesh offerings have this option by the way.


I am not being thick about it. I understand the multple technical reasons why Orbi is not the best choice for someone who doesn't own Orbi yet and who already has Ethernet wiring throughout their home.  I'm simply stating facts based on product capabilities.  You don't have the same knowledge as I do, so you don't understand my point, and you think I'm being thick.  

 

The limitations of Orbi include, but are not limited to: 1) Orbi forces you to use the same WiFi channel for all units.  2) Orbi does not allow fine control of the power for each unit, only 100/75/50/25%. 3) If you do adjust the power, each Orbi unit must use the same power value. 4) Orbi provides no report on the connection speeds and signal strength of connected devices, making it hard to configure the system for optimal operation.  

 

I will also point out that the Ubiquiti APs allow one wired AP to provide a wireless backhaul for up to four additional APs.  This is similar to the idea behind Orbi and seems to be the exact use case you are referring to.  More info here:  https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002262328-UniFi-Feature-Guide-Wireless-Uplink

 

Don't misunderstand me.  I have nothing against adding Ethernet backhaul to Orbi.  It just doesn't change the fact that there are better solutions if you already have wiring throughout your house.

 

Message 58 of 252
rhester72
Virtuoso

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

All these months later, I'm still trying to understand this argument.

 

Netgear *NEVER* marketed or advertised Orbi as having wired backhaul - QUITE the opposite, in fact.

 

If I buy a sports car, I'm not going to **bleep** that the trunk is too small for a hefty supermarket run - that's not its intended use case and I knew that going in.

 

Why do people buy Orbi and **bleep** about a lack of wireless backhaul when that's not what it was designed for?  If you're wired, use a wired AP - there are *many*.

 

I can't understand why this is a difficult concept.

 

Rodney

Message 59 of 252
rafale7
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

@st_shaw

Thank you. This was informative on the Orbi. It seems to be lacking more features than I thought.

 

The biggest drawback of the ubiquity is that the wireless backhaul is using the wifi network and will slow down the base ssid. What Orbi brings is a separate wireless backhaul which is what I am looking for. I have friends running ubiquity using both wired and wireless backhaul. The band steering and the interface management is very buggy and the platform is slower than say a bunch of ancient apple airports. Actually Ubiquity offers nothing new compared to having Apple airports in bridge mode or as repeaters. The goal is to have the uplink wireless unit run at full wifi speed while serving the satellites.

Orbi's innovation is the separate channel backhaul. What we are asking for is also a wired backhaul to work in parallel and the ability to kick out dumb devices which get hooked up on one AP even when the signal has become weak which from what you are saying does not appear to be the case. I thought this was one of the key advantages of the APs. Ubiquity does this but very poorly from what I observed.

If Ubiquity not using wifi as their wireless backhaul then I would agree with you but so far I am only seeing the velop and the orbi offering this feature.

 

Again, I do not have wiring throughout the house. I have wiring at some places and not at others. This is the reason why I would like to have both so I can use wires where I can and wireless where I cannot instead of bogging down the whole house through a wireles only solution.

 

 @rhester72 Sorry if you don't understand and it frustrates you. I am using wired APs. They are not covering areas where I don't have wires very well or with repeaters reduce the speed of the AP the repeaters are connected to.

Message 60 of 252
st_shaw
Master

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

@rafale7 No problem.  You raise a good point about the Ubiquity wireless backhaul reducing throughput.  I think this is the case with several "mesh" solutions. You need an additional radio, like Orbi has, to address that.

 

I have both Ubiquity and Orbi operating in two different sites.  I've tested throughput with iPerf, and the WiFi throughput is equivalent with with both systems, with a slight edge to the Ubiquiti.  I get maximum data throughput of 250 Mbps vith an Ubiquiti AP-Pro vs 225 Mbps with Orbi.  This is probably limited by my 2011 laptop though.  I don't have an ac client to test with.

 

I don't see the buggy interface issues you mention with Ubiquiti, and the handoff from AP to AP, and the handoff from 5G to 2.4G, seems to work about the same on both systems.

 

Message 61 of 252
JMU1998
Luminary

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

Why is Netgear not providing wired backhaul if other similar systems are? what is the problem?  Why are other similar systems offering this feature why can't Netgear.

Message 62 of 252

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul


@JMU1998 wrote:

Why is Netgear not providing wired backhaul if other similar systems are? what is the problem?  Why are other similar systems offering this feature why can't Netgear.


your getting like a broken record and its getting a bit boring

 

lets break down the question so you UNDERSTAND

 

"Why is Netgear not providing wired backhaul if other similar systems are?"

 

becuse it wasnt designed with that feature and you are wrong as not all do wired backhaul

 

"what is the problem?"

 

who knows but after 3 months of beta testing and 6 months in the wild i suggest its not a priority or on the road map at this stage

 

"Why are other similar systems offering this feature"

 

because they where designed with it as a standard feature , btw there are no real similar systems apart from velop and its not even the same , orbi has no real comparison at this stage

Message 63 of 252
Dan_H
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

@st_shaw

What we are asking for is also a wired backhaul to work in parallel and the ability to kick out dumb devices which get hooked up on one AP even when the signal has become weak which from what you are saying does not appear to be the case. I thought this was one of the key advantages of the APs. Ubiquity does this but very poorly from what I observed.

 


No Unifi does not do support that anymore (because it never worked right). Clients decide when they change, not the APs. Just like the Orbi.

 

Still trying to figure your explanation of what you want. You want wired to your Orbi router than out to a mix of wired and nonwired satellites? AFAIK, Orbi can only do 2 satellites. So you want one wired/ one wireless?  If you have more than one wired AP now not sure how that is going to solve your problem.

 

Also not sure what you mean by the Unifi platform being slow. Are you talking about the controller? Are you talking about AP througput? The controller isn't slow. AFAIK the APs arent either. 

 

Message 64 of 252
st_shaw
Master

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul


@Dan_H wrote:

 

 


No Unifi does not do support that anymore (because it never worked right). Clients decide when they change, not the APs. Just like the Orbi.

 

Still trying to figure your explanation of what you want. You want wired to your Orbi router than out to a mix of wired and nonwired satellites? AFAIK, Orbi can only do 2 satellites. So you want one wired/ one wireless?  If you have more than one wired AP now not sure how that is going to solve your problem.

 

Also not sure what you mean by the Unifi platform being slow. Are you talking about the controller? Are you talking about AP througput? The controller isn't slow. AFAIK the APs arent either. 

 


 

@Dan_H What are you saying Unifi doesn't support anymore?  The minimum RSSI feature and the band steering feature are both still active in the latest AP firmware.

Message 65 of 252
rafale7
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul


@Dan_H wrote:

@st_shaw

What we are asking for is also a wired backhaul to work in parallel and the ability to kick out dumb devices which get hooked up on one AP even when the signal has become weak which from what you are saying does not appear to be the case. I thought this was one of the key advantages of the APs. Ubiquity does this but very poorly from what I observed.

 


No Unifi does not do support that anymore (because it never worked right). Clients decide when they change, not the APs. Just like the Orbi.

 

Still trying to figure your explanation of what you want. You want wired to your Orbi router than out to a mix of wired and nonwired satellites? AFAIK, Orbi can only do 2 satellites. So you want one wired/ one wireless?  If you have more than one wired AP now not sure how that is going to solve your problem.

 

Also not sure what you mean by the Unifi platform being slow. Are you talking about the controller? Are you talking about AP througput? The controller isn't slow. AFAIK the APs arent either. 

 


On unify:

1. On the "zero handoff". This is my understanding as well. It never worked right. And is dropped. My friend was struggling with how buggy it was.

2. My understanding is that the 2 satellite limit comes from the fact that it is limited to wireless. I sure hope that you could add more through wires. When multihop will be implemented, if it ever does, I actually hope to have a network architecture looking like this:

 

router -> 1 wireless satellite + 2-3 wired satellites -> 1-2 wireless satellites only on the wired satellites. 

the router would manage the client handoffs from AP to AP.

3. The unifi APs are very slow, not the controller. All the tests I have seen and real life experience show that even the AC Pro give half the speed of the 3 year older Apple airport extreme which was already not considered fast. I regularly get 500-600MBPs at most locations on 5GHz only as I run separate SSIDs. My friend never gets more than 300MBPs on him 2.4/5GHz combined.

This review actually verified what I observed:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/10/review-ubiquiti-unifi-made-me-realize-how-terrible-consumer-...

Message 66 of 252
Dan_H
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

Well than buy a $50 router. Use the orbis in AP mode. Add some wired APs from someone else. There ya go. Done
Message 67 of 252
st_shaw
Master

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

@rafale7 You are correct that "Zero Handoff" is no longer supported on Unifi.  This was a non-standard protocol that didn't work well and that required all APs to use the same channel (Similar to how Orbi works, by the way.)  On unifi, this has now been replaced by the new fast roaming standard 802.11r.

Message 68 of 252
rafale7
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul


@Dan_H wrote:
Well than buy a $50 router. Use the orbis in AP mode. Add some wired APs from someone else. There ya go. Done

Yes, This is partially what I am considering doing. I have no intention to use the Orbi as a router. I called it a router in my scheme only to use the orbi terminology for the the wired AP.  One could use a couple of these "routers" as wired AP units and broadcast the same SSID with the satellites being only wireless. The inconvenience is management interface and roaming management. Would 2 orbi "routers" talk to one another through wires?

 

My current setup as below has the inconvenience of not handling the sticky clients besides the smarter devices switching themselves (basically only the apple devices) and poor coverage in a couple of areas of the house because I am not using any of the wireless clients as repeaters due to the fact that new clients would see stronger signals from the repeaters but would have very poor speed not only for them but also for the source AP.

 

network.png

Message 69 of 252
Dan_H
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

I completely understand what you want and think the Orbi should do. I am going to leave you to that now. Words fail me at this point. Good luck.
Message 70 of 252
st_shaw
Master

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul


@rafale7 wrote:

3. The unifi APs are very slow, not the controller. All the tests I have seen and real life experience show that even the AC Pro give half the speed of the 3 year older Apple airport extreme which was already not considered fast. I regularly get 500-600MBPs at most locations on 5GHz only as I run separate SSIDs. My friend never gets more than 300MBPs on him 2.4/5GHz combined.

This review actually verified what I observed:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/10/review-ubiquiti-unifi-made-me-realize-how-terrible-consumer-...


 

I have not experienced the Unifi APs to be slow.  That review is almost 18 months old.  The following review is 30 days old, and shows the AC-PRO to provide 611 Mbps and to be the fastest tested.  They also tested the Linksys Velop.  

 

https://www.custompcreview.com/reviews/ubiquiti-unifi-ap-ac-pro-wifi-access-point-review/38030/

 

 

Message 71 of 252

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

and this review shows the unifi products dont match the orbi in coverage wise

 

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/33084-ubiquiti-ac-pro-and-ac-lite-access-p...

 

 

Message 72 of 252
Hirrdgoon
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

Yeah the orbi covereage is better. So it needs the wired backhaul feature like discussed.

Message 73 of 252
rafale7
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

Forgive my skepticism of non comparative reviews. I base my assessment on real life, multi client comparison and have concluded that ubiquity is a very nicely managed network with subpar hardware design. The AC Pro AP barely achieves more than half the speed of the Apple airport AC. Yes the interface is nice and is full of great ideas which is the reason for all the hype around the "professional wifi solution" but really not competitive in terms of throughput compared to older hardware.

Message 74 of 252
Hirrdgoon
Apprentice

Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

If you want to compare more similar AP's to Orbi, then the Unifi AC HD would be the one closest to the orbi specs and speed.

 

The orbi is pretty damn good at solid wifi, it just needs wired backhaul to take advange of the ports.

 

Message 75 of 252
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