Reply
OrbiPhilip
Luminary

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

Camoit said,
"If you have a half deacent router you can block it from updating. See post above."

Unless you are using the Orbi as your edge router/FW, as I am.

Model: Orbi High-Performance AC3000 Tri-Band WiFi System (RBK50)
Message 26 of 72
bestguess
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

tech support is a pain they would not send the beta software could someone send a copy?

 

Thanks

Message 27 of 72
LeBullet
Apprentice

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

I've had the new beta firmware, and it was only installed 2 hours, before I had to downgrade again.

I'd not rush for the current version of this chaps

Bullet

Message 28 of 72
bestguess
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

What are you experiencing.. also the latest version practically un usable
Message 29 of 72
Retired_Member
Not applicable

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

When I tried it the actual 2.4 and 5 GHz signals were dropping, in addition to the always dropping backhaul of course.
Message 30 of 72
bestguess
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

Prpblem im javong now 2.4 and 5Ghz dropping thought i give it a shot.. ran a analyzer to see what cjannels were avaible.. i have a mix of windows and mac devices
Message 31 of 72
timch
Luminary

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

I have the latest beta and I am now stable. Lots of talk on here about backhaul stability etc but my real life experience is that my system is solid. As a scientist I do wonder about the validity of some of the graphs being posted; not challenging the integrity of the posters, just whether the methodologies are telling us anything useful.

Message 32 of 72
LeBullet
Apprentice

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

The firmware version I had, had DBG version, so I'm going to check with Netgear that I had the right version before totally before passing comment on it

 

Bullet

Message 33 of 72
Retired_Member
Not applicable

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

Timch, would you mind checking the backhaul on your system using whatever method you prefer?

Then to see if the drops make a difference, make a Wi-Fi call while connected to the satellite. You can watch your call drop. I think it would be great to have a scientist look into this. The more eyes the better because the graphs are definitely not lying.
Message 34 of 72
bestguess
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

I believe i jave the dbg beta also for the past hour or so no problems
Message 35 of 72
bestguess
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

Take it back dropping again.. pain in the ass back to my gateway router
Message 36 of 72
st_shaw
Master

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2


@BobertSaget wrote:
Timch, would you mind checking the backhaul on your system using whatever method you prefer?

Then to see if the drops make a difference, make a Wi-Fi call while connected to the satellite. You can watch your call drop. I think it would be great to have a scientist look into this. The more eyes the better because the graphs are definitely not lying.

Well, I'm not a scientist, but I have a master's degree in computer engineering and 28 years of experience developing (and debugging) computer products.

 

Like Timch, it's not clear to me that the backhaul disappearing from a WiFi scanning app means there's a problem. The data I've collected doesn't support that hypothesis. My Orbis is stable and I don't have a consistent backhaul in WiFI scanning apps.

 

I've tried at least four WiFi scanning apps on my MacBookPro.  The backhaul very rarely shows up on any of them during normal operation.  This would indicate that whatever protocol Netgear is using for the backhaul is not standard WiFi and does not reliably appear on WiFi scanners. There are other devices that use WiFi channels to communicate and don't appear on scanners. Sonos is one example.

 

We don't know how Netgear is using the backhaul channels, so it's a major (and possibly invalid) assumption to conclude that the backhaul must continuously appear in a WiFi scanner for proper operation of Orbi.

 

I downloaded WiFi Explorer yesterday and it will sometimes show the backhaul. I have a screenshot where you can see the backhaul on channel 157 and it disappears from the graph.  However, immediately after the backhaul disappears I was still able to transfer data at 90 Mbps to a Raspberry Pi that's hardwired to the satellite. So, definitely the backhaul was still working even though it wasn't showing in WiFi Explorer.

 

 

If somone could collect data that directly correlates the timing of the backhaul signal changes with network outages and returns to service, then that would be more meaningful.

 

 

 

Message 37 of 72
bestguess
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

Also Computer Engineer with 17 years in the field.. I tried there beta firmware and again discconecting all of my devices.. I wish they would post something fast not a good look for future sales.. if it wasnt for the range i would just keep my FIOS Gateway

Message 38 of 72
rhester72
Virtuoso

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

@st_shaw

 

1) The backhaul drops, by definition, are a problem.  It is literally the equivalent of unplugging and replugging an Ethernet cable every few seconds.  You may not notice on TCP, due to liberal socket timeouts, but with fire-and-forget UDP (nee streaming and VoIP), you will absolutely see disruption.

 

2) I can't say a thing about your scanning apps, but yes, the backhaul is standard wifi with no SSID broadcast.  With a master's in computer engineering, I'll take it as read you know how to telnet:

 

root@RBR50:/# iwconfig ath2
ath2      IEEE 802.11ac  ESSID:"NETGEAR_ORBI_hidden85"
          Mode:Master  Frequency:5.785 GHz  Access Point: [redacted]
          Bit Rate:1.7333 Gb/s   Tx-Power:30 dBm
          RTS thr=64 B   Fragment thrSmiley Surprisedff
          Encryption key:[redacted] [2]   Security modeSmiley Surprisedpen
          Power ManagementSmiley Surprisedff
          Link Quality=0/94  Signal level=-95 dBm  Noise level=-95 dBm
          Rx invalid nwid:9172  Rx invalid crypt:0  Rx invalid frag:0
          Tx excessive retries:0  Invalid misc:0   Missed beacon:0

It is not the same situation as Sonos, whose non-802.11 interference with 5GHz channel overlap is well-documented.

 

3) We actually know precisely how Netgear uses backhaul - I documented it extensively shortly after the product's release on this very forum.  We also later determined and documented how 2.4GHz backhaul fallback functions.

 

You may want to do a bit of academic research on how wireless communications function before coming to erroneous conclusions that total signal loss doesn't cause a problem.  I suggest you start with a more meaningful test that uses UDP or custom packet framing, as TCP by design will not show loss in very short bursts.

 

Rodney

Message 39 of 72
Camoit
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2


@OrbiPhilip wrote:

Camoit said,
"If you have a half deacent router you can block it from updating. See post above."

Unless you are using the Orbi as your edge router/FW, as I am.


Get a router and use the Irbi as an access point only.. This one should be able to do domain blocking. All you would need to do is add the ip address after enabling the feature.

https://smile.amazon.com/TP-Link-Gigabit-Ethernet-Multi-WAN-TL-ER5120/dp/B006DEBYTI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UT...

Message 40 of 72
Camoit
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

Orbi uses the one of the 5.0 Ghz channels as the backhaul.

It’s also not a true mesh system like a Ruckus but we are hopeful they will fix this.

It works more as a point to node system. So if you have more then one satellite to want the base in the center of them.

A true mesh system it would not make any difference where the base is.

Message 41 of 72
Retired_Member
Not applicable

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

@st_shaw, I am a little confused by your credentials because your post made no sense. 

 

"The backhaul very rarely shows up on any of them (scanners) during normal operation.  This would indicate that whatever protocol Netgear is using for the backhaul is not standard WiFi and does not reliably appear on WiFi scanners."  - Why would it indicate that? I'd like to learn more about this proprietary protocol that randomly drops off of scanners.

 

"I have a screenshot where you can see the backhaul on channel 157 and it disappears from the graph." - Of course you do, that is the backhaul dropping problem. 

 

"So, definitely the backhaul was still working even though it wasn't showing in WiFi Explorer." - I guess we can go ahead and mark all of those threads as solved because the backhaul is definitely supposed to drop, right?

 

"If somone could collect data that directly correlates the timing of the backhaul signal changes with network outages and returns to service, then that would be more meaningful." You have 28 years of debugging experience, I can think of no one better to run that experiment.

Message 42 of 72
st_shaw
Master

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

 

Here is what I am talking about. The image upload function seems to be gone, so here is a link to a screenshot on google drive.

 

Backhaul Graph

 

In the top section of the screenshot you can see the Orbi's hidden 2.4 and 5 GHz signals on WiFi Explorer.  These are highlighted and appear on channels 1 and 157.  The hidden Orbi signals appear briefly then go away.  They were last seen at 9:55 AM as shown in the upper right.  At the bottom of the screen is a window with a UDP iperf3 session conducted just before the scan was stopped at 9:58 AM.

 

The iperf session was between my MacBook and a Raspberry Pi that is hardwired to the router. The MacBook was connected via WiFi to the satellite.  The AP associated to the MacBook is indicated by WiFi Explorer with bold formatting.

 

The iperf session was started after the Orbi backhaul signal dropped from the scanner, yet 233 MBytes and 29K packets were transferred with 0% packet loss. This example shows the backhaul working while the signal is not appearing on a WiFi scanner app.  This is why I say I'm not convinced the signal dropping from a scanner app means the backhaul is not working.

 

Maybe there is something strange with my setup or something wrong with my logic, but it seems pretty simple.

Message 43 of 72
Retired_Member
Not applicable

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

@st_shaw, thanks for posting the image. Something seems wonky with your software though. If you look at the MAC address, they don't correlate with the type of signal going out and your annotations. The two that start with A6 are your satellite. I don't know why it says it's putting out two 2.4 GHz signals but that's not right.

Did the other Wi-Fi scanners you tried and show the same thing?
Message 44 of 72
st_shaw
Master

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2


@BobertSaget wrote:
@st_shaw, thanks for posting the image. Something seems wonky with your software though. If you look at the MAC address, they don't correlate with the type of signal going out and your annotations. The two that start with A6 are your satellite. I don't know why it says it's putting out two 2.4 GHz signals but that's not right.

Did the other Wi-Fi scanners you tried and show the same thing?

 

I double checked by powering off the satellite.  The router is broadcasting using one MAC address starting with A0 and one starting with A6.  So it looks like the labels are correct. The A6s are the 2.4G band. The A0s are the 5G band.

 

I've used WiFi Explorer, Netspot, WiFi Scanner, and AirRadar.  All behave the same. None will show the backhaul regularly.  It will usually show briefly if I power-cycle the WiFi. It's as if Orbi broadcasts the hidden networks only when a new device is connecting to the network, then goes dark.

 

Message 45 of 72
st_shaw
Master

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

Well, I tired Acrylic WiFi on a Windows 10 machine.  It shows the hidden Orbi backhaul channels only for a few seconds, about once every minute.  No connectivity loss across the backhaul when it's not showing.  Different computer this time, but still Apple hardware.

Message 46 of 72
Retired_Member
Not applicable

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

Thanks @st_shaw, that is very interesting. Hopefully others will share their results so we can try to solve this mystery as a community. 

Message 47 of 72
bestguess
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

For the past 6 hours no problem with galaxy s7 windows laptop and ipad going most of the day
Message 48 of 72
Camoit
Star

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2

Is it possible you are only seeing the polling broadcast for the 5 Ghz. Have you looked at what wireshark shows for flow.

Message 49 of 72
st_shaw
Master

Re: Firmware Version 1.10.1.2


@Camoit wrote:

Is it possible you are only seeing the polling broadcast for the 5 Ghz. Have you looked at what wireshark shows for flow.


I'm not sure. I haven't tried wireshark yet.  I will try that when I get a chance later this week or next weekend.

 

Here's an Acrylic WiFi screenshot. The 5G Orbi hidden signal is highlighted. You can see it appears for only a few seconds, once or twice per minute. The hidden 2.4G signal comes and goes too, but stays on longer. Despite this, I have no issues with WiFi during normal use, and I haven't noticed any issues yet while testing the network.

 

Acrylic WiFi Screenshot

Message 50 of 72
Top Contributors
Discussion stats
Announcements