Re: I thought I was one of the lucky ones ...

Mayhugh1 · ‎2018-02-28

I've stated before that I must be one of the lucky ones because I don't seem to be having all the problems that many others have been experiencing. However, after some detective work during the past few months, I've discovered there have been some issues going on under the covers with my system. First, the router status states that the system has been up continuously since I updated the firmware to xxx.xx.18 when it became first available a few months ago. And, indeed I've never rebooted the system since installing the update. However multiple checks of of the status also shows that the WAN connection goes down everyday or so. This disconnect typically lasts only several seconds, and I've actually caught it in progress a few times. The router glows violet until the connection reestablishes, and then all is well without me having to intervene. To be fair, I really can't tell if this is an Orbi problem or an ISP problem.
The second issue which is definitely related to the Orbi is that something happens to just one of my satellites every week or so that requires a power cycle to correct. The 5g download rate as measured by Speedtest on my iPad connected to this satellite drops from its typical 200mb/s to 20mb/s. Again, a power cycle immediately cures the problem after a few minutes when the satellite reconnects.
I have a non-typical connection to my ISP's cable modem that might either be causing the problem or serendipitously mitigating it. The Orbi is set up as a router but it is double NAT'd with the router in my cable modem. This wasn't intentional on my part since I told the tech that set up the modem several years ago to work with my previous Buffalo router that I wanted it set up in bridge mode so I could use my own WIFI and not the anemic version they had available. As it turned out he set it up so the WIFI was turned off, but their router was still serving DHCP addresses. I found this to be the case when I noticed the Orbi router was receiving a local IP address. I never tried to change this because things seemed to be working pretty well, and since we have our phone service through their box I wasn't sure if changing it would create problems with that.
I can certainly live with the current performance, but not being perfect makes me fear any new firmware changes.

FURRYe38 · ‎2018-02-28

Whats the Mfr and model of the ISP modem/router combo?

If the combo modem isn't bridged, it's recommended to bridge it OR, if not, use the modems DMZ for the IP address the Orbi router gets from the modem. This helps with NAT and WAN connection issues.

As long as the modems wifi is fully disabled, there shouldn't be any interferences from the modem, however maybe from surrounding house neighbors.

Have you tested the Orbi system with Beamforming, MIMO and Daisy Chaining features disabled?

I have only one Satellite connected and it's been solid since my last FW update or configuration change. Hasn't been any degradation in speed or WAN disconnects. However my modem is a stand alone modem only in a 5000sq ft house.

@Mayhugh1wrote:
I've stated before that I must be one of the lucky ones because I don't seem to be having all the problems that many others have been experiencing. However, after some detective work during the past few months, I've discovered there have been some issues going on under the covers with my system. First, the router status states that the system has been up continuously since I updated the firmware to xxx.xx.18 when it became first available a few months ago. And, indeed I've never rebooted the system since installing the update. However multiple checks of of the status also shows that the WAN connection goes down everyday or so. This disconnect typically lasts only several seconds, and I've actually caught it in progress a few times. The router glows violet until the connection reestablishes, and then all is well without me having to intervene. To be fair, I really can't tell if this is an Orbi problem or an ISP problem.
The second issue which is definitely related to the Orbi is that something happens to just one of my satellites every week or so that requires a power cycle to correct. The 5g download rate as measured by Speedtest on my iPad connected to this satellite drops from its typical 200mb/s to 20mb/s. Again, a power cycle immediately cures the problem after a few minutes when the satellite reconnects.
I have a non-typical connection to my ISP's cable modem that might either be causing the problem or serendipitously mitigating it. The Orbi is set up as a router but it is double NAT'd with the router in my cable modem. This wasn't intentional on my part since I told the tech that set up the modem several years ago to work with my previous Buffalo router that I wanted it set up in bridge mode so I could use my own WIFI and not the anemic version they had available. As it turned out he set it up so the WIFI was turned off, but their router was still serving DHCP addresses. I found this to be the case when I noticed the Orbi router was receiving a local IP address. I never tried to change this because things seemed to be working pretty well, and since we have our phone service through their box I wasn't sure if changing it would create problems with that.
I can certainly live with the current performance, but not being perfect makes me fear any new firmware changes.

naerok · ‎2018-02-28

This is an issue known throughout some of the community here of the satellites leaking memory and download speeds degrading/disconnecting.

The solution for this is to reboot the satellite and some orbi users have had to purchase smart outlets / timers to power cycle their satellites once per day while they are sleeping / away from home - it's rediculous.

see this guy: https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Orbi-satellite-dropping-connection/m-p/1512445#M24230

Don't listen to the netgear shills that give you the same bs about trying to disable beamforming/mimo or moving the satellites closer to the router. Waste of time until netgear releases a fix.

Mayhugh1 · ‎2018-02-28

The modem is an Arris TG1672G. I currently have Mimo an beamforming turned on but daisychaining turned off. I think, but I can't be sure, that I got better results with mimo and beamforming on. I'm pretty sure I got better results with daisychaining off. The physical configuration of my satellites is such that they are in a star with respect to the router and so my results seemed to make sense to me. There are a lots of neighboring WIFI's, and I had to play with the channel selection to get the best results. Fortunately, no one else seems to play with their channel locations.

i've read about the recommendations about double NAT'ing, but I have no requirements for port forwarding or VPN and so I didn't see how it would hurt. In fact, it seems like another level of firewall protection. I can be talked out of it though.

t_k · ‎2018-02-28

@Mayhugh1 A few notes on your post.

Re: Double NAT'ing

The folks who indicate that double NAT'ing could be causing your performance degregation are almost certainly wrong and just making noise. While it's logically unnecessary to have an extra layer of NAT, there shouldn't be any measurable overhead using a NAT layer on most systems in the last 10 years at 25K-50K connections (active use across 20-30 devices). Also, if NAT was the issue, you'd see it everywhere - not just from a sattelite. You can safely ignore that as a factor.

Re: The disconnects

That is almost certainly a layer 2 issue with their WDS system, not your ISP. You'd need a device in between your modem and your Orbis performing monitoring to confirm it, but I wouldn't bother (though, at one point I did, when expeiencing simiiar issues). Due the transient and difficult to reproduce nature of the Orbi's bugs, you may have just bumped into it over the past few months. I recently posted instructions for how you can reproduce the issue to confirm your experiencing it.

Re: Inconsistent speed

Again, the backhaul. This is another symptom of the backhaul issue. I know repeating this doesn't help you, but I hope it saves you the time from trying to "make it work". There is no end-user way to address this, as @naerok mentioned.

Just for completeness, I'll respond to your interference comment. Interference is extremely unlikely, especially since rebooting the router temporarly resolves the issue.

If you want to confirm that (again, I wouldn't bother), perform a wireless packet capture (Airtool on Mac's makes it easy), and look for how many RTS/CTS backoffs are happening. Odds are, you don't see more than the standard amount, which accounts for microseconds of latency.

FURRYe38 · ‎2018-02-28

Using the DMZ on the ISP modem is safe and good to use. The a single fire wall works for most configurations. Theres no need for two firewalls. It helps mitigate issues you may see later on while having two routers online. You can also disable it later on if needed. Helps in troubleshooting router issues when you have two routers connected at the same time.

Just input the IP address the Orbi router gets from the ISP Modem into the Modems DMZ. I'd set up a IP address reservation for the Orbi router on the ISP modem.

If your getting better operation with Beamforming and MIMO enabled, good. Theres others saying the disabling Daisy Chaining helps as well.

@Mayhugh1wrote:
The modem is an Arris TG1672G. I currently have Mimo an beamforming turned on but daisychaining turned off. I think, but I can't be sure, that I got better results with mimo and beamforming on. I'm pretty sure I got better results with daisychaining off. The physical configuration of my satellites is such that they are in a star with respect to the router and so my results seemed to make sense to me. There are a lots of neighboring WIFI's, and I had to play with the channel selection to get the best results. Fortunately, no one else seems to play with their channel locations.
i've read about the recommendations about double NAT'ing, but I have no requirements for port forwarding or VPN and so I didn't see how it would hurt. In fact, it seems like another level of firewall protection. I can be talked out of it though.