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Highlighted
Luminary

Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

I believe I have read all the threads on this topic and tried the suggested solutions that are relevant to my particular network. My apologies if I have missed something!

 

My Orbi RBK50 (one router, one satellite) connected through the router WAN port directly to the fiber-optic to Ethernet converter supplied by my ISP has been reasonably stable lately.

 

However, I recently implemented Ethernet backhaul and suddenly Infuse Pro on my Apple TV would stop in the middle of playing video stored on my Drobo every 10-20 minutes.

 

This was my original setup:

 

190130-network.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 


After some initial testing I concluded there were massive amounts of packet loss (some tests up to 30%) happening somewhere.

 

I can detail all the things I tried to narrow the issue down to the Ethernet backhaul if it is interesting, but I finally ended up trying the most basic setup I could imagine:

190130-test.gif


Both laptops have wifi disabled.

 

I still see massive packet loss between the two laptops, and also from a device connected to wifi through the router to the laptop wired to the satellite:

 

64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1572 ttl=128 time=8.543 ms
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1573 ttl=128 time=4.581 ms
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1574 ttl=128 time=3.300 ms
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1575
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1576
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1577
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1578
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1579
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1580
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1581
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1582
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1583
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1584
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1585
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1586
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1587
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1588
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1589
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1590
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1591
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1592
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1593
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1594
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1595
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1596
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1597
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1598
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1599
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1600
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1601
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1602 ttl=128 time=3.282 ms
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1603 ttl=128 time=3.505 ms
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1604 ttl=128 time=3.237 ms

 

I have unchecked "Enable Daisy-Chain Topology", no difference.

 

I have applied new firmwares as they have been released, currently both are at V2.2.1.21.

 

If I unplug the Ethernet backhaul cable (which I have replaced with a short high-quality Cat 6 cable for the test) and restart the satellite and wait for the 5G backhaul to be established I can ping both 10.0.0.33 and 10.0.0.36 with little or no packet loss from the wifi, and zero loss between the two wired laptop wired laptops.

 

--- 10.0.0.36 ping statistics ---
2078 packets transmitted, 2078 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 1.651/3.443/23.380/1.186 ms

 

Ping statistics for 10.0.0.33:
Packets: Sent = 2075, Received = 2075, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 1ms, Maximum = 13ms, Average = 2ms

I can't think of any other explanation other than that the Ethernet backhaul is at fault. I've tried multiple devices connected in different ways and multiple cables connected to different ports.

 

Simply disconnecting the Ethernet backhaul and leaving everything else the same greatly alleviates the problem.

 

However, I really want to use Ethernet backhaul as it decreases my latency for the Nintendo switch (included in the "Stuff" normally wired to the satellite) by 20-40%.

 

Any suggestions?

Model: RBK50| Orbi AC3000 High-Performance Tri-Band WiFi System
Message 1 of 40

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Highlighted
Master

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

@Mooose Good troubleshooting and interesting observations. It's clear that the packet loss is directly related to the wired backhaul.

I'm now running the ongoing beta software (2.3.0.23) and I can see that NG has done quite good improvements on wired device handling. Would you want to test this SW and see if you will see improvements? If yes, please PM to @ChristineT and ask to get the SW download links. 

My Setup Internet Fiber ONT 250↓/250↑ISP Telenor | Wifi Router Orbi RBK50 AC3000, Router Mode, Wired Backhaul / Orbi RBK852 AX6000, Router Mode, Wireless Backhaul | Switches Netgear GS208Time Zone CET (Sweden)

View solution in original post

Message 26 of 40

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Highlighted
Guru

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

Do you get any packet loss with the Laptop directly connected to the Orbi router. Disconnect the satellite from the configuration.

 

Confirming that your using v2.2.1.210 FW? 

 

How was the satellite connected to ethernet? After the satellite was connected wifi? 

For wired back haul:
Set up IP address reservations for each satellite and devices on the router as you add them to the router. The satellites need to be set up via wireless first. Then connect 1 satellite at a time to the ethernet LAN cable. Wait 5 minutes and the top led on the satellite should turn on BLUE. Set up an IP address reservation for the 1st satellite. Continue to do the same thing for the 2nd satellite. Then follow up with your devices.

 

Was the FW updated via auto update or manually? 

If auto update, you might do this, re-load the FW file on to both units manually. After loading do a full factory ERASE on both units and setup from scratch. Add the satellite wireless first, then connect the ethernet cable. 


@Mooose wrote:

I believe I have read all the threads on this topic and tried the suggested solutions that are relevant to my particular network. My apologies if I have missed something!

 

My Orbi RBK50 (one router, one satellite) connected through the router WAN port directly to the fiber-optic to Ethernet converter supplied by my ISP has been reasonably stable lately.

 

However, I recently implemented Ethernet backhaul and suddenly Infuse Pro on my Apple TV would stop in the middle of playing video stored on my Drobo every 10-20 minutes.

 

This was my original setup:

 

190130-network.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 


After some initial testing I concluded there were massive amounts of packet loss (some tests up to 30%) happening somewhere.

 

I can detail all the things I tried to narrow the issue down to the Ethernet backhaul if it is interesting, but I finally ended up trying the most basic setup I could imagine:

190130-test.gif


Both laptops have wifi disabled.

 

I still see massive packet loss between the two laptops, and also from a device connected to wifi through the router to the laptop wired to the satellite:

 

64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1572 ttl=128 time=8.543 ms
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1573 ttl=128 time=4.581 ms
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1574 ttl=128 time=3.300 ms
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1575
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1576
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1577
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1578
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1579
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1580
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1581
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1582
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1583
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1584
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1585
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1586
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1587
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1588
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1589
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1590
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1591
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1592
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1593
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1594
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1595
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1596
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1597
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1598
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1599
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1600
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1601
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1602 ttl=128 time=3.282 ms
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1603 ttl=128 time=3.505 ms
64 bytes from 10.0.0.36: icmp_seq=1604 ttl=128 time=3.237 ms

 

I have unchecked "Enable Daisy-Chain Topology", no difference.

 

I have applied new firmwares as they have been released, currently both are at V2.2.1.21.

 

If I unplug the Ethernet backhaul cable (which I have replaced with a short high-quality Cat 6 cable for the test) and restart the satellite and wait for the 5G backhaul to be established I can ping both 10.0.0.33 and 10.0.0.36 with little or no packet loss from the wifi, and zero loss between the two wired laptop wired laptops.

 

--- 10.0.0.36 ping statistics ---
2078 packets transmitted, 2078 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 1.651/3.443/23.380/1.186 ms

 

Ping statistics for 10.0.0.33:
Packets: Sent = 2075, Received = 2075, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 1ms, Maximum = 13ms, Average = 2ms

I can't think of any other explanation other than that the Ethernet backhaul is at fault. I've tried multiple devices connected in different ways and multiple cables connected to different ports.

 

Simply disconnecting the Ethernet backhaul and leaving everything else the same greatly alleviates the problem.

 

However, I really want to use Ethernet backhaul as it decreases my latency for the Nintendo switch (included in the "Stuff" normally wired to the satellite) by 20-40%.

 

Any suggestions?


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK50 v2.7.0.70(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK853, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 2 of 40
Highlighted
Sensei

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

This is probably a silly question.  There are four ethernet ports on both the RBR50 and RBS50.  Did you plug the CAT6 ethernet cable into the same ports that were previously used for ethernet backhaul?  Do you get the same packet drop when using other combinations of ports?

I love my Orbi.
Message 3 of 40
Highlighted
Luminary

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

There is no packet loss for the laptop (10.0.0.33) wired directly to the router when the using 5G backhaul or no satellite, but with the Ethernet backhaul even this laptop loses packets. See ping results below for details.

 

Of course, FW V2.2.1.210, copy/paste error, sorry!

 

For the test below, the satellite was connected to Ethernet after the 5G test, i.e. it was up and running perfectly prior to connecting the cable.

 

All wired devices, including the satellite, have IP address reservations.

 

The firmware has been updated by clicking the update button in the web interface.

 

I have factory-reset both units previously in an attempt to solve a different problem, although I have not downloaded the firmware file from the support page and loaded it, nor have I tried factory-resetting this time around. Is this voodoo, or is there some technical explanation why this may work? I am reluctant to do this as I have IP address reservations and port-forwarding set up the way I need it, so I would really like to avoid this route if there is anything less time-consuming I could try first.

 

Not a silly question at all, switching ports has solved many issues for me in the past. Regrettably not this time though, and yes, I have tried.

 

So, here's the test I tried this evening. I started with 5G backhaul:

190130-network-3.gif


From the laptop (10.0.0.19) connected to the router through wifi with 5G backhaul:

 

--- 10.0.0.36 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 9999 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 2.493/7.358/251.367/9.624 ms

 

--- 10.0.0.33 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 10000 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 1.029/4.328/317.584/8.420 ms

 

--- 10.0.0.2 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 10000 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 2.134/7.446/793.257/19.222 ms

 


From the laptop (10.0.0.33) Ethernet-wired to the router with 5G backhaul:

 

--- 10.0.0.36 ping statistics ---
9080 packets transmitted, 9080 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.494/3.844/1796.147/21.845 ms


--- 10.0.0.2 ping statistics ---
9083 packets transmitted, 9083 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 1.181/3.478/1953.779/21.589 ms

 

 

From the laptop (10.0.0.36) Ethernet-wired to the satellite through a switch with 5G backhaul:

 

Ping statistics for 10.0.0.1:
Packets: Sent = 10000, Received = 10000, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 282ms, Average = 0ms

 

Ping statistics for 10.0.0.2:
Packets: Sent = 10000, Received = 10000, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 1ms, Average = 0ms

 

Ping statistics for 10.0.0.33:
Packets: Sent = 10000, Received = 9883, Lost = 117 (1% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 17ms, Average = 0ms


I then connected the Ethernet backhaul cable:

 

 

190130-network-2.gif

 

 

 

 

From the laptop (10.0.0.19) connected to the router through wifi with Ethernet backhaul:

 

-- 10.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 9999 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.856/3.826/375.312/8.331 ms

 

--- 10.0.0.2 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 9491 packets received, 5.1% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 1.011/4.137/375.312/9.731 ms

 

--- 10.0.0.4 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 9989 packets received, 0.1% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 1.037/3.873/375.340/7.215 ms

 

--- 10.0.0.33 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 9524 packets received, 4.8% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 1.038/4.202/504.643/11.575 ms

 

 

From the laptop (10.0.0.33) Ethernet-wired to the router with Ethernet backhaul:

 

--- 10.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 9588 packets received, 4.1% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.269/0.442/6.942/0.162 ms

 

--- 10.0.0.2 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 9486 packets received, 5.1% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.242/0.362/1.081/0.053 ms

 

--- 10.0.0.36 ping statistics ---
10000 packets transmitted, 9564 packets received, 4.4% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.285/0.700/14.856/0.201 ms

Message 4 of 40
Highlighted
Guru

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

What happens if you disconnect the Orbi router from the ISP modem? Similar PL? 

Can you try a different laptop or PC to compare results? 

"From the laptop (10.0.0.19) connected to the router through wifi with Ethernet backhaul:"

When you mention this, is the laptop connnected to the Orbi router via wifi with it's ehthernet cable connected as well or disconnected? Or is this just the ethernet backhaul enabled and connected with the satellilte? 

 

What is the mfr and model if this ISP modem. I believe it already has a built in router. Just curious is all. 

Seen bad behavior after doing the auto update. Loads of users having problems using auto update. So reason for trying a file FW load and reset and setup from scratch. Helped resolve users issues in regards to auto update.

I would take a backup snapshot of the current routers configuration and save it to file. Then if you do the FW manual re-load and setup from scratch, run some tests first. Then apply the saved configuration to file. 

 

 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK50 v2.7.0.70(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK853, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 5 of 40
Highlighted
Luminary

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

I do not have a modem, the WAN port is connected directly to the fiber-optic to Ethernet media converter installed with the fiber-optic connection. My ISP supplies the external IP address on this interface through DHCP. There is nothing printed on the outside of the media converter enclosure except the MAC address, and I'd rather not break it open to find the model identification. I'm sure there is some way to poll it, but I do not know how. In any case, there is no router of any kind between the Orbi router and the fiber-optic connection.

 

I have not tried disconnecting the WAN. I will try this tomorrow, when others are not relying on the connection.

 

The wifi laptop (10.0.0.19) does not have an Ethernet cable connected to it, its only connection is the wifi connection to the Orbi router.

 

I have tried several other devices, including other computers, an Apple TV, a Nintendo Switch and the Raspberry Pi that runs Home Assistant. I haven't done any rigorous testing, but as far as I can tell the results are pretty much the same, i.e. packet loss with the Ethernet backhaul cable connected.

 

Thanks for the voodoo information. It may take a while to find time to try a manual update, factory-reset and retest, but I will do it when I get a chance.

Message 6 of 40
Highlighted
Master

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

I have wired backhaul so I thought to try to simulate your case, so I connected my laptop with a LAN cable to the router, disconnected the wifi network (did not disable wifi) in the laptop, started command prompt and typed the ping message, and guess what, I got packet loss exactly as you did, BUT.....

While trying to collect some date from Orbi I noticed that my speakers (usually connected to the satellite) started to blink indicating no network then I saw they got attached to the router, waited few minutes, I saw that my router rebooted, so I disconnected the laptop.

When I looked in the laptop IP configuration I noticed that I had it set up for a static IP address (192.168.10.101) outside the Orbi subnet and remembered that I did this setting last time when I was configuring a VoIP router for a friend. I really don't know how I managed to get LAN connectivity with this settings but it seems that somehow the wifi was sending the packets not the LAN port.

Of course the family at this point started to complain about loss of internet and I did not want to try again.

What I concluded from this short test -together with my previous experience with Orbi- is the following:

  1. Orbi LAN ports are very sensitive to the wired devices connected to it
  2. This "sensitivity" is more evident when you have wired backhaul
  3. I should be cautious with devices that have wireless capability when using them as wired devices in Orbi, they can cause loops and system instability.

At this point I'm not sure what made my Orbi unstable when I connected my laptop, is it the bad LAN port configuration, or the loops caused by combination of wired and wireless connections in the same device.

I will try again later and see if I can simulate this case again. Meanwhile I have the following questions:

  • Do you have any static IP settings in your wired computers?
  • Are you sure that wireless is completely disabled in those computers
  • Does the same issue happen if you disconnect one of the computers (one at a time) and ping from the other computer to any other device (wired or wireless), repeat the the same with the other computer? It can be only one of the computers is causing this issue.
  • Is Daisy Chain Disabled? you mentioned that but please make sure it's unticked.

Another test that I would like to do, at later stage, to avoid loops in backhaul, is to disable the wireless backhaul (with telnet commands) and see if this will do any improvement.

 

My Setup Internet Fiber ONT 250↓/250↑ISP Telenor | Wifi Router Orbi RBK50 AC3000, Router Mode, Wired Backhaul / Orbi RBK852 AX6000, Router Mode, Wireless Backhaul | Switches Netgear GS208Time Zone CET (Sweden)

Message 7 of 40
Highlighted
Luminary

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

Thanks for looking into this!

 

I believe I have never set any static IP addresses, and I am sure the two laptops used for the test received theirs through DHCP.

 

I am certain macOS and Windows 10 on the two computers involved think wifi is disabled. I have also verified that they do not show up as wireless connected devices in the Orbi web interface.

 

I have done similar tests with these two particular devices turned off, it was packet loss from the Drobo to the Apple TV that originally alerted me that something was wrong.

 

I will try turning them off one at a time tomorrow and ping from the wifi laptop.

 

Daisy Chain is disabled. (Or, unticked, at least.)

 

I am surprised wireless backhaul cannot be easily disabled from the web interface.

 

Message 8 of 40
Highlighted
Guru

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

I would try doing a factory reset on the system and setup from scratch and run some test to see if the problem continues with ethernet backhaul connected with the satellite.

 

Is there any ethernet switches in between the router and satellite or is the satellite directly connected to the router? 

 

No need to check the ISP service. Reason for mentioning this is that your devices are getting a 10.#.#.# IP address which means the Orbi detected a DHCP server in front of the Orbi which maybe using the same IP address as the Orbi does, 192.168.1.1 so the Orbi will change the default IP address for the LAN side to something else. In this case 10. 

 

 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK50 v2.7.0.70(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK853, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 9 of 40
Highlighted
Mentor

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

Here's a really silly question:

 

How confident are you that your ethernet cable used for backhaul is configured and terminated properly?

 

Could the issue be something as simple as a defective cable connection?

---------------
My Equipment: Cox Cable (350Mb/35Mb), Orbi AX6000 (RBR850, RBS850), w/2 x RBS50) (Wired backhaul), NG GS116PP Gigabit Smart Switch, Synology DS1019+ NAS
Message 10 of 40
Highlighted
Sensei

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

In a previous post, he mentioned substituting a new short CAT6 cable for the backhaul ethernet cable (which probably ran through the walls, over the ceiling, etc.).  This situation defies belief, and he has done a TON of work to document it.

I love my Orbi.
Message 11 of 40
Highlighted
Mentor

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

I had read that he substituted a short cable... question is did the issue remain with that replacement?  It wasnt that clear to me.... 

---------------
My Equipment: Cox Cable (350Mb/35Mb), Orbi AX6000 (RBR850, RBS850), w/2 x RBS50) (Wired backhaul), NG GS116PP Gigabit Smart Switch, Synology DS1019+ NAS
Message 12 of 40
Highlighted
Sensei

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

It was in the first post with the diagrams.  First thing he did was change from the original ethernet cable to a brand new short one.  He also removed the switch.  This is a VERY strange situation.

I love my Orbi.
Message 13 of 40
Highlighted
Luminary

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

Annoying how the family typically has little understanding for the need to fix something that appears to "mostly work". (Until the movie they're trying to watch stops, of course!)

 

The 10.#.#.# range is by choice, I use it both because it is faster to type, and I can also easily see if a device is on my network or some other network, which typically uses 192.168.#.#.

 

I do have some concern regarding the Ethernet cable run through the house, but for the test I moved the satellite near the router and used a short (>3m) ridiculously overpriced Cat 6 cable, which I hope is fine. I do have one more of those to try though, so I will do that.

 

Please note also that the switch (a D-Link DGS-1005D 5-port unmanaged 1000 Mbps) was never between the router and satellite. In the normal setup (first diagram) it is connected to a LAN port of the router since the devices connected to it (Drobo 5N, Ikea Tradfri gateway and a Raspberry Pi) are far enough away from the router that I do not want to use separate cables. I also connect other devices from time to time, and there are not enough ports on the router to do that.

 

For the second test (third and fourth diagrams) I added the switch to a LAN port of the satellite to determine if having it (and the Drobo) also connected would cause any issues. As noted, no packet loss with 5G, but only adding the backhaul Ethernet cable directly between the router and satellite immediately resulted in packet loss.

 

Please also note that for the first test (second diagram) the switch was entirely removed from the equation, no other wired devices than the router, satellite, fiber-optic to Ethernet converter and the two laptops were connected. However, several other devices were connected through wifi, which I could not turn off without causing a major disruption for others.

 

Thanks everyone for your input!

Message 14 of 40
Highlighted
Luminary

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

What I intend to do:

 

  1. Download RBR50-V2.2.1.210.img and RBS50-V2.2.1.210.img from the Netgear support page
  2. Use the web interface in the current setup to update first the satellite and then the router
  3. Disconnect all Ethernet cables from router and satellite
  4. Reset router and satellite using paperclip in reset button for more than seven seconds
  5. Power off router and satellite
  6. Power on router
  7. Connect a laptop to router through wifi
  8. Set IP range to 10.1.1.* (in order to force new addresses for all devices as they are connected)
  9. Reserve 10.1.1.101 for wifi connected laptop
  10. Power on satellite, wait for 5G backhaul to be established
  11. Reserve 10.1.1.2 for satellite
  12. Connect laptop (with wifi off) to LAN port of satellite
  13. Reserve 10.1.1.102 for wired laptop
  14. Run ping test from laptop connected to router through wifi (10.1.1.101) to laptop wired (10.1.1.102) to satellite, confirm no packet loss
  15. Connect short Cat 6 backhaul cable and confirm good wired connection in web interface
  16. Run the same ping test again
  17. Replace the wired laptop with a different wired laptop, reserve 10.1.1.103 and test again

 

will do this with the WAN port disconnected, and with the default wifi network, so none of my other wifi devices (Ring Doorbell, Piper Z-wave gateway, phones, tablets, etc) connect.

 

Are they any steps I should add? Anything I should do differently?

Message 15 of 40
Highlighted
Guru

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

I would skip powering off the router and satellite after doing a reset. Theres no need to do this. Just continue to setup the router from scratch. 

 

Though changing IP addresses shouldn't be a problem, you could ping test this using default IP address first to see if there is any differences. Then go back to your custome address pool. 

 

I would first test pings with the satellite not being added first. Then wireless connect the satellite. Ping test. Then connect the ethernet to the satellite. GIVE 5 Minutes for the system to settle in. Then ping test at the router then behind the satellite. 


@Mooose wrote:

What I intend to do:

 

  1. Download RBR50-V2.2.1.210.img and RBS50-V2.2.1.210.img from the Netgear support page
  2. Use the web interface in the current setup to update first the satellite and then the router
  3. Disconnect all Ethernet cables from router and satellite
  4. Reset router and satellite using paperclip in reset button for more than seven seconds
  5. Power off router and satellite
  6. Power on router
  7. Connect a laptop to router through wifi
  8. Set IP range to 10.1.1.* (in order to force new addresses for all devices as they are connected)
  9. Reserve 10.1.1.101 for wifi connected laptop
  10. Power on satellite, wait for 5G backhaul to be established
  11. Reserve 10.1.1.2 for satellite
  12. Connect laptop (with wifi off) to LAN port of satellite
  13. Reserve 10.1.1.102 for wired laptop
  14. Run ping test from laptop connected to router through wifi (10.1.1.101) to laptop wired (10.1.1.102) to satellite, confirm no packet loss
  15. Connect short Cat 6 backhaul cable and confirm good wired connection in web interface
  16. Run the same ping test again
  17. Replace the wired laptop with a different wired laptop, reserve 10.1.1.103 and test again

 

will do this with the WAN port disconnected, and with the default wifi network, so none of my other wifi devices (Ring Doorbell, Piper Z-wave gateway, phones, tablets, etc) connect.

 

Are they any steps I should add? Anything I should do differently?


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK50 v2.7.0.70(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK853, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 16 of 40
Highlighted
Luminary

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

(Sorry about the multiple reposts, it seems the forum deletes my post when I attempt to add images.)

 

I basically tried the approach above, with the exception that the updated and reset virgin Orbi's startup wizard process wanted the satellite connected and laptop connected through wifi before proceeding.

 

Once the network was up in its default configuration I wired one laptop with wifi disabled to the router and one to the satellite.

 

After each of the following steps I performed a long and successful ping test:

 

  1. Wire the Drobo to the satellite
  2. Add a short high quality Cat 6 between the router and satellite, and wait for the backhaul connection to stabilize
  3. Add the DGS-1005D switch between the satellite and the Drobo
  4. Add additional wired devices to the switch
  5. Move the satellite to the remote location and wait for the 5G backhaul connection to stabilize
  6. Wire the Nintendo Switch and the Apple TV to LAN ports of the satellite
  7. Wire the DGS-1005D with the Drobo and Ikea Gateway to the router
  8. Connect the WAN port to the fiber-optic converter
  9. Connect the long backhaul Ethernet cable and wait for the connection to stabilize
  10. Connect a third computer to the network through wifi

 

Every time I added a wired device I reserved the IP address, and when I added the wifi devices I reserved all their addresses as well.

 

At this point I let the ping test run all day, with almost perfect results, and I was about ready to proclaim myself a believer in voodoo.

 

Here is a typical run:

 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/33799i253B5909778D19B2/image-size/large?v...

 

I changed the default wifi SSID to what it was previously allowing other devices already configured to rejoin.

 

Failure!

 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/33800i29547AC654E80E84/image-size/large?v...

 

I realize now that what I failed to do in the very basic setup I tried first was to disable (or rename) the Orbi wifi, and that my wifi devices were still connected during the test.

 

I have tried loads and loads of things during the last week, including creating a guest network with the old SSID and password where the wifi devices could not see each other or the rest of the network, none of which produced different results.

 

My conclusions are that:

 

  • If my wifi devices and the Ethernet backhaul are connected there is significant packet loss (typically about 15% but up to 80% in some tests)
  • If I disconnect the Ethernet backhaul and wait for the 5G backhaul to establish the packet loss goes away
  • If I rename the wifi so that all wifi devices are kicked off the network the packet loss goes away
  • When there is packet loss, it typically happens to devices that are at the other end of the Ethernet backhaul, others are fine
  • Keeping an eye on the ping stream the chunks of packet loss to different devices seem fairly synchronized i.e. 192.168.1.5 and 192.168.1.10 will drop pings at the same time

 

The reasonable thing to do would be to configure a new wifi network and add devices back one at a time. However, I've already lost a week of productivity to this and I do not have more time to spend. The devices include five wifi speakers, four Ring devices, two Z-wave gateways, three headless computers and a printer which all would require the wifi swapping configuration dance.

 

I guess my options now are to live with the high latency or throw the Orbi out and try something else, neither are good options.

I really don't want to live with the latency as it is so much higher than it needs to be for the wired devices.

 

Here's one of the tests with the Ethernet backhaul conducted on a wired computer:

 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/33801iED0786C7E44F2278/image-size/large?v...

 

And the same test with 5G backhaul:

 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/33802iC76E298FDE1A9A55/image-size/large?v...

 

The average ping for devices on the other end of the backhaul is typically about 0.3 ms versus 3.3 ms with 5G backhaul, which is really depressing.

 

(In the examples above 192.168.1.1 and 192.168.1.5 are wired devices at the other end of the backhaul and 192.168.1.3 and 192.168.1.8 are wired devices connected at the same end. The rest are wifi connected to either router or satellite.)

Message 17 of 40
Highlighted
Luminary

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

I give up. Here are the four images in order in a separate post.

 

190205-5G.gif

 

190205-Wired.gif

 

190205-Ethernet-backhaul.gif

 

190205-5G-backhaul.gif

 

 

Message 18 of 40
Highlighted
Guru

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

Wow, lots of data here. 

 

Couple of things. Yes, when first setting up the Orbi router, the desired SSID name should be setup before connecting any wired backhaul and other devices. 

 

Can you remove the D-Link DGS-1005d from the mix and directly connect the satellite to the Orbi router? I believe this maybe an issue here as I believe it has some Green Ethernet featured switches seems to cause problems for Orbi systems. 

https://eu.dlink.com/uk/en/products/dgs-1005d-5-port-10-100-1000-gigabit-desktop-switch

 

Is your Orbi branded Virgin from the Virign ISP? 


@Mooose wrote:

(Sorry about the multiple reposts, it seems the forum deletes my post when I attempt to add images.)

 

I basically tried the approach above, with the exception that the updated and reset virgin Orbi's startup wizard process wanted the satellite connected and laptop connected through wifi before proceeding.

 

Once the network was up in its default configuration I wired one laptop with wifi disabled to the router and one to the satellite.

 

After each of the following steps I performed a long and successful ping test:

 

  1. Wire the Drobo to the satellite
  2. Add a short high quality Cat 6 between the router and satellite, and wait for the backhaul connection to stabilize
  3. Add the DGS-1005D switch between the satellite and the Drobo
  4. Add additional wired devices to the switch
  5. Move the satellite to the remote location and wait for the 5G backhaul connection to stabilize
  6. Wire the Nintendo Switch and the Apple TV to LAN ports of the satellite
  7. Wire the DGS-1005D with the Drobo and Ikea Gateway to the router
  8. Connect the WAN port to the fiber-optic converter
  9. Connect the long backhaul Ethernet cable and wait for the connection to stabilize
  10. Connect a third computer to the network through wifi

 

Every time I added a wired device I reserved the IP address, and when I added the wifi devices I reserved all their addresses as well.

 

At this point I let the ping test run all day, with almost perfect results, and I was about ready to proclaim myself a believer in voodoo.

 

Here is a typical run:

 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/33799i253B5909778D19B2/image-size/large?v...

 

I changed the default wifi SSID to what it was previously allowing other devices already configured to rejoin.

 

Failure!

 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/33800i29547AC654E80E84/image-size/large?v...

 

I realize now that what I failed to do in the very basic setup I tried first was to disable (or rename) the Orbi wifi, and that my wifi devices were still connected during the test.

 

I have tried loads and loads of things during the last week, including creating a guest network with the old SSID and password where the wifi devices could not see each other or the rest of the network, none of which produced different results.

 

My conclusions are that:

 

  • If my wifi devices and the Ethernet backhaul are connected there is significant packet loss (typically about 15% but up to 80% in some tests)
  • If I disconnect the Ethernet backhaul and wait for the 5G backhaul to establish the packet loss goes away
  • If I rename the wifi so that all wifi devices are kicked off the network the packet loss goes away
  • When there is packet loss, it typically happens to devices that are at the other end of the Ethernet backhaul, others are fine
  • Keeping an eye on the ping stream the chunks of packet loss to different devices seem fairly synchronized i.e. 192.168.1.5 and 192.168.1.10 will drop pings at the same time

 

The reasonable thing to do would be to configure a new wifi network and add devices back one at a time. However, I've already lost a week of productivity to this and I do not have more time to spend. The devices include five wifi speakers, four Ring devices, two Z-wave gateways, three headless computers and a printer which all would require the wifi swapping configuration dance.

 

I guess my options now are to live with the high latency or throw the Orbi out and try something else, neither are good options.

I really don't want to live with the latency as it is so much higher than it needs to be for the wired devices.

 

Here's one of the tests with the Ethernet backhaul conducted on a wired computer:

 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/33801iED0786C7E44F2278/image-size/large?v...

 

And the same test with 5G backhaul:

 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/33802iC76E298FDE1A9A55/image-size/large?v...

 

The average ping for devices on the other end of the backhaul is typically about 0.3 ms versus 3.3 ms with 5G backhaul, which is really depressing.

 

(In the examples above 192.168.1.1 and 192.168.1.5 are wired devices at the other end of the backhaul and 192.168.1.3 and 192.168.1.8 are wired devices connected at the same end. The rest are wifi connected to either router or satellite.)


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK50 v2.7.0.70(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK853, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 19 of 40
Highlighted
Master

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul


@Mooose wrote:

............ The devices include five wifi speakers, four Ring devices, two Z-wave gateways, three headless computers and a printer which all would require the wifi swapping configuration dance.

............


What happens to you shows for sure that you have loops in your system:

  1. Can you please check again carefully that none of your devices can -by any means- have both wired and wireless connection to Orbi?
  2. I asked this before, please make sure Daisy Chain is disabled (unchecked in the advanced wireless settings).

My Setup Internet Fiber ONT 250↓/250↑ISP Telenor | Wifi Router Orbi RBK50 AC3000, Router Mode, Wired Backhaul / Orbi RBK852 AX6000, Router Mode, Wireless Backhaul | Switches Netgear GS208Time Zone CET (Sweden)

Message 20 of 40
Highlighted
Sensei

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

You mention five wireless speaker systems. There are other threads in this forum describing various problems with Sonos speakers.  I, myself, have only a single soundbar attached to my TV, so I have no expertise to offer.  The impression I get, however, is that some speaker systems set up their own WiFi networks to "talk among themselves", perhaps to steam the same audio simultaneously in different rooms.

 

The implication (to me) is that these devices can be connected to two WiFi networks at the same time.  IStreams from Orbi WiFi could go into one speaker and through the the speaker WiFi to another speaker.  God knows what would happen if broadcast packets get into this stream.

 

It might be a fairly simple experiment to power off the five speaker systems and see if the packet loss goes away.

 

Thinking back to the original post, where wireless backhaul had "no problem", but wired backhaul showed dramatic Ping packet loss, how could which devices are connected have any bearing?  However, I also seem to recall a post describing how packet loss went away until more devices were added.

 

Please forgive me if this suggestion is totally ridiculous.

I love my Orbi.
Message 21 of 40
Highlighted
Luminary

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

I have been trying to post an update since last night. It looks like posts are successfully submitted (success, click here to go to your post) but then they disappear. Looking around the forum interface I found a list of rejected posts, but none on the awaiting approval list.

 

The post is only text, 4262 characters, copied from a plain text editor. What am I missing?

Message 22 of 40
Highlighted
Master

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul


@Mooose wrote:

I have been trying to post an update since last night. It looks like posts are successfully submitted (success, click here to go to your post) but then they disappear. Looking around the forum interface I found a list of rejected posts, but none on the awaiting approval list.

 

The post is only text, 4262 characters, copied from a plain text editor. What am I missing?


Anything that looks like a phone number probably? 

My Setup Internet Fiber ONT 250↓/250↑ISP Telenor | Wifi Router Orbi RBK50 AC3000, Router Mode, Wired Backhaul / Orbi RBK852 AX6000, Router Mode, Wireless Backhaul | Switches Netgear GS208Time Zone CET (Sweden)

Message 23 of 40
Highlighted
Luminary

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

@ekhalil wrote:


Anything that looks like a phone number probably? 


I don't think so. I tried masking the IP numbers, didn't help. Here's the text as an image.

 

190206-Text.jpg

Message 24 of 40
Highlighted
Guru

Re: Massive packet loss over Ethernet backhaul

Possible the Forum software is detecting your pastes incorrectly as spam thus deleteing the post. Try using Notepad++ to copy and paste from next time. 

 

So if you connect the satellite in the same room via ethernet and let it settle in, then run some wired pings at the router and satellite while in the same room in this configuration, you see PLs here with a good quality CAT6 LAN cable? Even after a factory reset of the system and setup from scratch? 

 

Download PingPlotter.com and run some tests by pinging the routers IP address with this program..

 

I'm wondering if your system maybe just bad and needs to be replaced. Smiley Frustrated


@Mooose wrote:

I have been trying to post an update since last night. It looks like posts are successfully submitted (success, click here to go to your post) but then they disappear. Looking around the forum interface I found a list of rejected posts, but none on the awaiting approval list.

 

The post is only text, 4262 characters, copied from a plain text editor. What am I missing?


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CAX80>RBK50 v2.7.0.70(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, RBK853, R7800, R7960P,
EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 25 of 40
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