Orbi and AT&T Fiber w/ Arris BGW210 Router Problems + Optimal Home Network Expansion Tips

[generals1992]

Hi all,

Long-term Netgear user, first-time poster here. Having some issues with my Orbi system playing with my AT&T Fiber and have been scanning these forums as well as others but can't seem to find a solution to my specific issue.

Here's the background on my network/home setup:

• Orbi RBK50 Router + 1x Satellite
• 1x gigabit ethernet switch connected to Orbi Router
• 1x Home Theater Receiver (hardwired to gigabit switch)
• 3x Apple TVs (2x hardwired and 1x WiFi)
• 2x 4K Rokus (both WiFi)
• 1x Lutron Caseta Smart Hub running 7x light switches, plans to add at least another 10x, connected to gigabit switch)
• 1x Phillips Hue Smart Hub running 8x bulbs (connected to gigabit switch)
• 2x WeMo plugs
• 1x Nest Thermostat 
• 1x Nest Doorbell
• 3x Nest Cameras
• 1x Nest Guard
• 6x Nest Door/Window Sensors
• 3x Nest Protects
• 2x Laptops (1x work laptop using Citrix VPN and 1x Windows 10 Pro - both spend about 50/50 time between hardwired and WiFi connections)
• In process of running Cat6 throughout house (which will allow me to backhaul Orbi if I ultimately keep same setup)

Question 1:  AT&T Speed Issues

I've had this setup (+/- a few smart home devices) for about a 16 months with Comcast Blast 150mbps internet (for which I had my own modem) and never had any issues. This past Saturday I switched to AT&T Fiber - I had held off on switching as I knew you were saddled to their Modem+Router combo and didn't want to pay up for something that wouldn't let me bring my own device. However, they were running a special for Gigapower Fiber for $60/month and I didn't want to pass that up.

I am probably a 6/10 as far as Networking saviness for a non-IT professional and can usually figure most everything out myself. I had done my research around how to set up the Arris router to pass through to my Orbi. My AT&T Tech was great - helped me set up the passthrough right there and made sure it was working. I was getting 500-600 download and 900+ upload speeds when he was there (of course). That evening, I noticed things had slowed a bit - still 400+ for both download and upload, but nowhere near what I was getting that morning. This was on a hardwired connection.

As one does, I got to fiddling and realized that, when hardwired to the Arris Modem vs. the Orbi Router, I was getting 100-200 mbps better speeds. Each day since, both my hardwire and WiFi connections are consistently faster on the Arris Modem. I've tried tweaking the Advanced Settings on my Orbi per others' instructions here, using the Arris modem as my router and putting the Orbi into AP mode, and turning on Ipv6 6to4 Tunnel on my Orbi. In each scenario, the Arris modem still yields faster speeds. The Orbi Speedtest will tell me i'm getting 800+ upload to the router, but I'm not even getting close to that hardwired to the Router. 

So I guess as it relates to the AT&T Fiber - what have I missed to ensure that I'm getting the fastest speed? Is it an equipment issue? A setup/settings issue? An AT&T issue? Admittedly, the speeds I've gotten hardwired to the Arris Modem/Router have, at times, been far less than what was promised (300-400mbps). But either way, they're still consistently 100-200mbps faster than what I get through the Orbi.

Secondly, what setup offers maximum performance/security:  Orbi in AP mode vs. Orbi as Router?  From a common sense perspective, and given that you can never put the Arris modem/router into bridge mode, I have to think there's more processing going on with the Passthrough (and thus greater latency) vs. having it continue to act as the router and using the Orbi solely as an AP. Might be wrong - not sure if the Orbi's router capabilities are truly so superior to those of the Arris that there is some benefit to letting it do the heavy lifting (aside from guest networking, QoS, etc. that you lose in AP mode).

Question 2:  Expansion/Upgrade Options

Assuming I'm ever able to get the performance promised by AT&T (or at least consistently 700+mbps on a hardwired connection), I'd like to make sure I have the most optimal setup. I like to be able ot customize (and Orbi's lack of QoS customization really irks me), so I'm wondering if I'd be better off with a Nighthawk router (or similar) and the network extenders, or perhaps a Nighthawk + Orbis in AP mode. My house is a tri-level with about 2,600 SF - coverage right now is good, but could be better in certain areas and I'm pretty sure I have the best possible setup that I could have with my current two-node setup. I'd like to either add a third Orbi satellite or perhaps consider a Nighthawk router + my existing two Orbis in AP mode w/ ethernet backhaul. Has anyone done this, and would there be any advantage to the Nighthawk setup? 

[SW_]

Amazing write ups!  So I will take a bite.  

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@generals1992 wrote:

Question 1:  AT&T Speed Issues

I've tried tweaking the Advanced Settings on my Orbi ... turning on Ipv6 6to4 Tunnel on my Orbi.

Avoid 6to4 tunnel b/c it'll incur CPU cost to encapsulate IPv4 header, which again has to be decapsulated on destination.  Dual IP stacks are also not ideal.  If your ISP only provides IPv6 address to the Modem, just let the Modem/Router does this work instead of Orbi.  If you are testing with wired connection, tweaking Orbi setting is unnecessary unless QoS/Traffic meter is enabled.

... what setup offers maximum performance/security:  Orbi in AP mode vs. Orbi as Router?

...  guest networking, QoS, etc. that you lose in AP mode...

You won't lose guest networking with AP mode.

I wouldn't worry about QoS given your current speed.  QoS will likely hurt and won't help in this case because Orbi will spend its CPU cycles inspecting/peeking at each packet to enforce QoS.  A major downside with QoS is that it could also disable NAT hardware offloading, Flow Acceleration (FA) feature, which can reduce tput by half for Gigabit download setup.

With AP mode, Orbi can save CPU cycles since it doesn't need to handle NAT'ing, QoS, Traffic meter, DHCP, access control, Disney Circle, Armor, etc., so it can dedicate all CPU cycles to handle WiFi/LAN clients.  It's much simpler setup compare to Router mode.  Given your current Router is able to get better tput than Orbi, it means that it's good at what it's doing already, NAT'ing, 6to4, and routing traffic.

We should focus on figuring out what's causing Orbi poor performance or if it's throttling traffic behind the scene without you knowing it.  Just leave it in AP mode for now.  You can switch it back to Router mode later if you want to.  Simple setup will help troubleshootings the speed issue at hand.

Question 2:  Expansion/Upgrade Options

I like to be able ot customize (and Orbi's lack of QoS customization really irks me), so I'm wondering if I'd be better off with a Nighthawk router (or similar) and the network extenders, or perhaps a Nighthawk + Orbis in AP mode...

We can come back to this once download speed issue has been resolved.  If the issue is with Orbi, adding a Nighthawk in front won't make it better.  

As a starter, can you:

1. Turn off all Satellites

2. Unplug your client LAN cable from the Orbi, use WiFi only for this setup

3. Unplug all other LAN clients from Orbi as well, except for the WAN port, which should be connected to Router

4. Connect via WiFi to the Orbi and initiate Factory Reset on Orbi Router to get rid of non-default configs, enables telnet on the Orbi, at telnet terminal, type these 3 commands:

      - config default

      - config commit

      - reboot

The Orbi will reboot and it will broadcast its default SSID.  Login and start the setup process and skip setting all Satellites.  Please disable these functions in preparation for AP mode and don't touch QoS page.

      - Disable UPnP

      - Disable Daisy-Chain (this will reboot)

      - Disable SIP ALG and change NAT Secured to Open

      - Disable DHCP

      - Switch to AP mode

      - Reboot the Orbi

After reboot, the Orbi should get a new IP address from the Router if everything is working as expected.  Login to Orbi, enable telnet, telnet into Orbi terminal, and then type 'top' cmd.

Once it's settling down, connect the client LAN cable to Orbi LAN port and disable client WiFi connection.  Point your browser at http://speedtest.googlefiber.net and start speed test.  Repeat the test at least 3 times and get an average.

[SW_]

From NG QoS document:

A key to optimizing networks is to fix any severe bottlenecks. When the bottleneck is a router or a switch, QoS is likely to help. Here are guidelines to decide whether QoS might be useful:

• Bandwidth and traffic going from your LAN to the Internet is usually less than amount coming to your LAN. ISPs give less outgoing bandwidth intentionally, for economy, since most users upload less than they download from the Internet. QoS on routers, therefore, is most useful for traffic when outgoing from your LAN. For incoming traffic, any useful QoS has probably already been applied by your ISP.

@generals1992 wrote: "I was getting 500-600 download and 900+ upload speeds when he was there (of course)..."

[FURRYe38]

Modem Combo Units:
This would be a double NAT condition which isn't recommended. https://kb.netgear.com/30186/What-is-Double-NAT
Couple of options,
1. Configure the modem for transparent bridge mode. Then use the Orbi router in router mode. You'll need to contact the ISP for help and information in regards to the modem being bridged correctly.
2. If you can't bridge the modem, disable ALL wifi radios on the modem, configure the modems DMZ or IP Pass-Through for the IP address the Orbi router gets from the modem. Then you can use the Orbi router in Router mode.
3. Or disable all wifi radios on the modem and connect the Orbi router to the modem, configure AP mode on the Orbi router. https://kb.netgear.com/31218/How-do-I-configure-my-Orbi-router-to-act-as-an-access-point and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7LOcJ8GdDo&app=desktop

[gr8sho]

Hello @generals1992 

.  TL;DR.   🙂

As my sig suggests I have one of these residential gateways for my VDSL2 connection.  I'll offer what I can in the way of suggestions.

My experience with ATT provided gateways has been such that I've made a decision begrudgningly  to use Orbi as the router to manage my home network.  I would have preferred to use the device they provided for convenience, but there were just too many problems with WiFi calling I couldn't overcome is the short answer to a question you might have.

And as the sig states, I run the BGW210 in IP passthrough mode.  ATT user community forums is also a good resource on how to configure your gateway in IP Passthrough mode.  Both forums use the same Lithium product so shouldn't be too hard to navigate around.

If you do decide to go down this path, I'd factory reset the BGW210 and the RBK50 sequentially to start fresh.  I like to use hardware reset with paper clip.  Once the RBR50 comes online, you'll want to use a PC to login to the router's web gui.  You'll see a message indicating the router reconfigured the LAN subnet to avoid conflict with the BGW210 since it uses the same 192.168.1,x subnet as the Orbi.  The Orbi will move itself to 10.0.0.x.  From there, everthing else should be business as usual.