Re: RBR50 to RBS50 connectivity issue

NorthernApe · ‎2021-08-31

I have an RBR50 connected directly to a BT Openreach ONT and running in router mode. The internet connection is up and running and stable. There are two RBS50 satellites spread through the ground floor of my property connected via Devolo Magic 2 powerline adaptors. This setup worked perfectly with the satellites showing as "wired" in the attached devices page of the Orbi web page.

Over the past week, the satellites have been showing as not connecting properly, as in not showing as "wired", on the Orbi web page, and one satellite wasn't even being recognised as a satellite. It was showing in the list of attached devices below the satellite section. I have reset every component in the network back to factory defaults, including all the powerline adaptors, and reconnected the satellites using the Orbi setup wizard.

The current status is that the satellites are now showing correctly on the attached devices page, but with a 5G connection and not wired as they should be. The Orbi app indicates that the satellites are offline. Please see attached screenshot from the Orbi web page. I am out of ideas of what I now need to do to get the network back to full functionality.

NorthernApe · ‎2021-09-01

I think I have accepted that getting the satellites hard-wired using powerline adaptors is pretty much dead in the water and there doesn't seem to be that great an advantage speed-wise over the MESH network anyway!

With that in mind, can I get an opinion on the optimum settings for the Orbi router? Attached is a screenshot of the wireless settings.

View solution in original post

plemans · ‎2021-08-31

a couple things.

1. running 2 routers in router mode can cause issues. its called a double nat. https://kb.netgear.com/30186/What-is-Double-NAT

2. Is there a powerline adapter connected back to the bt openreach router or just to the orbi router?

3. powerline is sensitive to interference and a lot of things can interfere with powerline. these include: electronics going bad, cheap cell phone chargers, high draw appliances, old/bad/cheap/sketchy wiring, arc fault circuits, gfci outlets, surge protectors, and poorly made electronics. If the powerline backhaul isn't staying stable/connected, I'd be looking at the powerline system and not the orbi system.

NorthernApe · ‎2021-08-31

Thanks for your comments. @plemans.

@plemans wrote:
a couple things.
1. running 2 routers in router mode can cause issues. its called a double nat. https://kb.netgear.com/30186/What-is-Double-NAT

I have FTTP connected directly to the BT Openreach ONT box, which I believe is a modem not a router. I'm not aware of any settings for this box that I can access to check for a double NAT issue. I have checked the connected devices and they are all using the Orbi provided IP address.

I used to have a Fritzbox modem (my ISP, ZEN Internet, provided this) between the ONT and the Orbi with the Orbi being set to AP mode. I read that the Orbi could be connected directly to the ONT, be set to Router mode, and get an internet connection via PPPOE, and this is what I have done.

2. Is there a powerline adapter connected back to the bt openreach router or just to the orbi router?

The connectivity route is:
ONT -> Orbi (Router mode) -> Powerline --> Powerline -> Satellites (x2)
Each satellite has its own powerline adaptor.

3. powerline is sensitive to interference and a lot of things can interfere with powerline. these include: electronics going bad, cheap cell phone chargers, high draw appliances, old/bad/cheap/sketchy wiring, arc fault circuits, gfci outlets, surge protectors, and poorly made electronics. If the powerline backhaul isn't staying stable/connected, I'd be looking at the powerline system and not the orbi system.

The satellites aren't connecting using the ethernet (powerline) backhaul, only via 5G, and this isn't even getting correctly represented in the Orbi app. According to the app, the satellites aren't connected at all. The network was working fine up to around a week ago and I can't think of any additions, electronically, that have been added to cause this. I can't even blame a firmware update as there hasn't been one for a while!

plemans · ‎2021-08-31

@North

I have FTTP connected directly to the BT Openreach ONT box,----sorry, your comments made it seem like this was a router which openreach does have. tough to know 100% without a model number. which I believe is a modem not a router. I'm not aware of any settings for this box that I can access to check for a double NAT issue. I have checked the connected devices and they are all using the Orbi provided IP address.

I used to have a Fritzbox modem (my ISP, ZEN Internet, provided this) between the ONT and the Orbi with the Orbi being set to AP mode. I read that the Orbi could be connected directly to the ONT, be set to Router mode, and get an internet connection via PPPOE, and this is what I have done.----good to hear. No instabilies from the router? It functions properly? its just the satellites with issues?

2. Is there a powerline adapter connected back to the bt openreach router or just to the orbi router?

The connectivity route is:

ONT -> Orbi (Router mode) -> Powerline --> Powerline -> Satellites (x2)

Each satellite has its own powerline adaptor.

3.

The satellites aren't connecting using the ethernet (powerline) backhaul, only via 5G, and this isn't even getting correctly represented in the Orbi app. According to the app, the satellites aren't connected at all. ----so you disconnected the powerline? Again, if somethings causing interference on the powerline, it can be switching back and forth from powerline (which is sees as ethernet) and the 5ghz backhaul. This can cause instabliities and the app can be showing the wrong connection. The network was working fine up to around a week ago and I can't think of any additions, electronically, that have been added to cause this.----it doesn't have to be an addition. It can be something as simple as a cell phones power supply going bad that can cause interference. Or a piece of electronics. And that electronics might not go bad for a long time as some electronics don't care about a clean power going to them. but when your using powerline, you need devices that aren't causing feedback into the power system. Its tough to troubleshoot when it does happ. I can't even blame a firmware update as there hasn't been one for a while!

why are you using powerline backhaul? home to large? walls to thick or made of a material that blocks wifi? Again, if the powerline isn't stable and the home isn't condusive to wifi, you've got an instable mesh system.

NorthernApe · ‎2021-08-31

@plemans wrote:
@North

I used to have a Fritzbox modem (my ISP, ZEN Internet, provided this) between the ONT and the Orbi with the Orbi being set to AP mode. I read that the Orbi could be connected directly to the ONT, be set to Router mode, and get an internet connection via PPPOE, and this is what I have done.----good to hear. No instabilies from the router? It functions properly? its just the satellites with issues?
Yes, it functions perfectly! When I run the inbuilt speed test function on the Orbi I get full the full download / upload speeds I subscribe to.

3.

The satellites aren't connecting using the ethernet (powerline) backhaul, only via 5G, and this isn't even getting correctly represented in the Orbi app. According to the app, the satellites aren't connected at all. ----so you disconnected the powerline? Again, if somethings causing interference on the powerline, it can be switching back and forth from powerline (which is sees as ethernet) and the 5ghz backhaul. This can cause instabliities and the app can be showing the wrong connection.
I don't even see the ethernet backhaul. Just the 5G.

The network was working fine up to around a week ago and I can't think of any additions, electronically, that have been added to cause this.----it doesn't have to be an addition. It can be something as simple as a cell phones power supply going bad that can cause interference. Or a piece of electronics. And that electronics might not go bad for a long time as some electronics don't care about a clean power going to them. but when your using powerline, you need devices that aren't causing feedback into the power system. Its tough to troubleshoot when it does happ.
That figures! I've tried all the troubleshooting and resetting that I can, within my limited knowledge of the subject.
why are you using powerline backhaul? home to large? walls to thick or made of a material that blocks wifi? Again, if the powerline isn't stable and the home isn't condusive to wifi, you've got an instable mesh system.
I live in a medium sized 19th century cottage with a mixture of modern and old building materials. I've always thought that having a "wired" network would be superior to a wireless one.

plemans · ‎2021-08-31

Wired usually is superior to wireless.

What is your home made of?

Plaster lathe, brick, concrete, metal, all does a great job of blocking wireless. If thats the case, wired is best.

But if you're wired option is using powerline and its having issues, then you're caught between a rock and a hard place.

Try disconnecting the powerline backhaul and see how it functions over just wireless.

I know when I'm running ethernet backhaul, it takes a bit to show up in the app/gui that is wired. So it might be flipping back and forth between the 2 connections.

NorthernApe · ‎2021-08-31

Update: I have unplugged the two satellites from the powerline network.

I used a wifi analyser to log the speeds I was getting purely by wi-fi and it was an interesting result!

next to router: 694 Mbps
middle of kitchen in-between router and satellite 1: 315 Mbps
next to satellite 1: 499 Mbps
middle of living room in-between satellite 1 & 2: 464 Mbps
next to satellite 2 - furthest from router: 493 Mbps

Stupid question incoming! I subscribe to 300 Mbps download speed from Zen. How can the Orbi network be pushing speeds greater than this?

plemans · ‎2021-08-31

Are those tested speeds? Just link speed?

There's a difference as actual throughput tends to be 55-65% of link speeds.

How are you actually testing it?

NorthernApe · ‎2021-08-31

I am using an app called WiFi Sweetspots.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-08-31

That app only tests the connection rate speed between the mobile device and the RBR or RBS where the device is connected too. This app doesn't not test actual bandwidth speed test thru the device and orbi system out to the ISP services. To test this, install Ooklas installable speed test app.

CrimpOn · ‎2021-08-31

I, also, suspect there may be an issue with the Develo Magic 2. I have been using PowerLine adapters from TP-Link for several years. I started with four and am now down to three because the fourth one would work fine for a while and then drop the connection. I would notice, "hmmm. no security cameras today...." and there's that damn red light.

Devolo has software to manage the Magic 2 network. Does it show everything fine?

https://www.devolo.com/home-network/app-software

I find similar software from TP-Link surprisingly informative... and not in a good way.

Right now, it is reporting a Link Speed of 1200+mb to the closest adapter and 400+mb to the family room where my Tivo is located. 400mb is more than my Internet download speed, so I guess it is "good enough."

Link Speed on PowerLine networks is about as bogus as Link Speeds in WiFi networks.

Whereas ethernet is full duplex, and packets can travel in both directions at the same time, PowerLine and WiFi are "less than half duplex". Only one adapter can put traffic on the wire at any one time. The others must back off and wait.
PowerLine and WiFi are sensitive to distance and interference.
Overhead in WiFi and PowerLine is enormous compared to etherent. A gigabit ethernet link can achieve over 900mb of actual data transfer (in both directions). PowerLine and WiFi cannot come close in real world conditions.

These differences mean that actual ethernet cables connecting router and satellites will produce the highest throughput.

A way to confirm that the develo is (or is not) the issue is to temporarily connect the satellites with actual ethernet cables. 30 meter long Cat 6 ethernet cables are available on Amazon for under £10UK. (Shorter cables even less.) If the satellites do not sync over actual ethernet cables, something may be seriously wrong.

NorthernApe · ‎2021-09-01

@FURRYe38 wrote:
That app only tests the connection rate speed between the mobile device and the RBR or RBS where the device is connected too. This app doesn't not test actual bandwidth speed test thru the device and orbi system out to the ISP services. To test this, install Ooklas installable speed test app.

Ok, understood. Here are the results using Ookla:

next to router: 306 Mbps
middle of kitchen in-between router and satellite 1: 249 Mbps
next to satellite 1: 298 Mbps
middle of living room in-between satellite 1 & 2: 212 Mbps
next to satellite 2 - furthest from router: 233 Mbps - this is registering as "Poor" connection on the Orbi web page

My ISP provided internet connection speed is 300 Mbps. Based on these results, having the satellites hard-wired via powerline wouldn't seem to be a great advantage as I'm getting good speeds via the MESH network.

NorthernApe · ‎2021-09-01

I think I have accepted that getting the satellites hard-wired using powerline adaptors is pretty much dead in the water and there doesn't seem to be that great an advantage speed-wise over the MESH network anyway!

With that in mind, can I get an opinion on the optimum settings for the Orbi router? Attached is a screenshot of the wireless settings.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-09-01

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Most-Stable-Orbi-Configuration/m-p/1941087/highlight/true#M970...

NorthernApe · ‎2021-09-01

@FURRYe38 wrote:
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Most-Stable-Orbi-Configuration/m-p/1941087/highlight/true#M970...

Thank you. Settings applied

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-09-01

Please mark your thread as solved so others will know.
Be sure to save off a back up configuration to file for safe keeping. Saves time if a reset is needed.
https://kb.netgear.com/000062080/How-do-I-back-up-the-configuration-settings-on-my-Orbi-WiFi-System
Enjoy.