Re: RBS50 issues with Firware V2.7.3.22 - Firmware incorrect

SLK-Purdue · ‎2021-07-31

what version are you currently running? Stable?

Scott

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-07-31

Orbi doesn't support blocking or disabling of FW updates. When major versions of FW are made available, it's up to NG to push them regardless if users want it or not. Only way I found to block update is if you put a router or firewall and block the auto update services here. Blocking these services on board the RBR doesn't work.

SLK-Purdue · ‎2021-07-31

Clearly, you are correct and the nvram setting that I thought turned off the auto update didn't work.

Just for background, I am a 50 year IT professional. My IT professional experience even pre-dates networking. 🙂

I get the issues with updates but I also get the issue with bad timing for the recipients. Microsoft has learned this the hard way. My Orbi is a VERY key piece of equipment and I can't risk waking up to a surprise. Updates have to have some reasonable controls by the user. There needs to at least be a window for the update. If I had a critical function today and the update caused problems, I would be screwed. I can't risk that. I backup my Orbi config parameters nights (btw v2.7.2.22 hosed my backup cron job too!!) so I can always go back to yesterday night. That's protection but going back takes time I might not have first thing in the AM.

NG - Please listen. You can't do midnight surprised!!

Scott

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-07-31

FYI, this is NOT the first time NG has pushed FW and broke users systems. Long history on this.

Also NG seems to be now limiting controls and such as they've done same thing on Orib AX systems. There was Telnet, then it was removed a few versions back.

I beleive that NG taking a closing stance in closing backdoors due to the SSID separation thing. They seem to be phasing out ways for users to modify there systems using stock FW for unsupported features. Users may need to implement a up stream host router to block NG update services on Orbi systems. You can't block update services on Orbi itself. Youd be running a double NAT condition, however you could revert back to what version had been working for you and would prevent anymore auto updates. For those of you OUT of warranty, you can also use Voxels 3rd party FW which seems to keep all historical features users like having. User need to refer here for that information:

https://www.snbforums.com/forums/netgear-ac-wireless.53/

Like it or not, it's NG FW and product design. Up to you if you wanna keep using it with stock FW.

Good Luck

JustMeAgain · ‎2021-07-31

Has anyone else reverted back to previous firmware and blocked downloads.netgear.com from Advanced, Security, Block sites?

Did that stop the auto-update?

I had auto-update off via telnet but like others, update v2.7.3.22 was forced and caused a business disruption since it was done so without notice and made some of our devices unreachable (we later found one of the Orbis we have a switch plugged into apparently didn't recover from the update restart).

I welcome updates, but would like the option of pushing them in our maintenance windows, not whenever Netgear feels like it.

I will further state that should Negear have someone reading these forums - if you do not provide users a method to schedule updates you are setting yourselves up for lawsuits in smaller courts (more effective in opening your eyes than a class action which takes more time).

There is a California Uniform Commercial Code which protects consumers. Section 1792 states that all products and services sold or distributed in California have an implied warranty to be fit for purpose. This code overrides any corporation's user agreement form.

This has already been tested and won by various plaintiffs on Microsoft's forced updates using this code section, as well as other companies focing updates. 🙂

https://www.siliconvalleysoftwarelaw.com/can-your-company-be-sued-over-a-software-update-tesla-suit-...

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-07-31

@JustMeAgain wrote:
Has anyone else reverted back to previous firmware and blocked downloads.netgear.com from Advanced, Security, Block sites?
Did that stop the auto-update? Nope.

I

ChuckieCheese · ‎2021-07-31

OMG... this firmware FORCED update is screwing me up!

07/30/21: I woke up and it auto-update, removing the SSID separation. I had to downgrade, enable Telnet and setup everything again. I tried to prevent further update following this.

07/31/21: I woke up and Netgear FORCED ANOTHER update to v2.7.3.22. This time, it will NOT accept the router password. It won't even accept the security question.

Somehow, the firmware auto update screw something up that the password changed or something else. Now I got LOCKED OUT from my own router and have to do a hard reset. Now I have to spent my morning to fix this.... AGAIN?!

Netgear really dropped the ball by doing this auto-update.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-07-31

Please understand that if you had modified the SSID before while using Stock FW that any and all future updates will break the modification coming from NG as NG does NOT support separation of SSID.

You may need to implement a up stream host router to block NG update services on Orbi systems if you want to keep what had been working for you. You can't block update services on Orbi itself. Youd be running a double NAT condition, however you could revert back to what version had been working for you and would prevent anymore auto updates. For those of you OUT of warranty, you can also use Voxels 3rd party FW which seems to keep all historical features users like having. User need to refer here for that information:

https://www.snbforums.com/forums/netgear-ac-wireless.53/

Like it or not, it's NG FW and product design. Up to you if you wanna keep using it with stock FW.

Good Luck

@ChuckieCheese wrote:
OMG... this firmware FORCED update is screwing me up!

07/30/21: I woke up and it auto-update, removing the SSID separation. I had to downgrade, enable Telnet and setup everything again. I tried to prevent further update following this.

07/31/21: I woke up and Netgear FORCED ANOTHER update to v2.7.3.22. This time, it will NOT accept the router password. It won't even accept the security question.

Somehow, the firmware auto update screw something up that the password changed or something else. Now I got LOCKED OUT from my own router and have to do a hard reset. Now I have to spent my morning to fix this.... AGAIN?!

Netgear really dropped the ball by doing this auto-update.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2021-07-31

I understand, but the issue is that NG LOCKED ME OUT when it did auto-firmware update. My password no longer works... not even the security questions or the default password

This is an example why auto-firmware update can be bad - for whatever reason, it messed up the authentication or something that I no longer can access the admin page.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-07-31

Factory reset the RBR and setup from scratch then. Wire connect a PC to the router and factory reset the router using the back push pin button. Hold it in for 15 seconds then let go. Power OFF the ISP modem for 30 seconds than back on. Wait for the WHITE led to slowly pulsate on top of the RBR, then log in to orbilogin.com using a web browser and walk thru the setup wizard. This time write down all important information for safe keeping later on.

I recommend the following as well afterwards:

e sure to save off a back up configuration to file for safe keeping. Saves time if a reset is needed.
https://kb.netgear.com/000062080/How-do-I-back-up-the-configuration-settings-on-my-Orbi-WiFi-System

@ChuckieCheese wrote:
I understand, but the issue is that NG LOCKED ME OUT when it did auto-firmware update. My password no longer works... not even the security questions or the default password

This is an example why auto-firmware update can be bad - for whatever reason, it messed up the authentication or something that I no longer can access the admin page.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2021-07-31

Yes, I know about hard reset to factory, etc.

My point is the same: the auto-firmware update caused issue where the user is locked out from accessing the router.

It's NG decision to do auto-firmware update, but at least do it right and not cause issue like locking user out. And as a user, now I have to spend time doing reset, restore firmware, etc.? Does not sound user friendly at all.

SLK-Purdue · ‎2021-07-31

Come on. This doesn't make technical sense or business sense for NG. Pissing off technically qualified people is no way to sell a high end producrt. Does anybody from NG read this forum?

Additionally, the entire firmware is built on open source code and Netgear has, in the past, proudly talked about that as an advantage for technically qualified people who want to use their products. Again, what's the point here? The existance of a password protected Telnet is NOT a security issue! I was a CISO at a major university and I know a security issue when I see it. In fact, I would argue that surprise forced updates are a major security risk as the people on the recieving end are not prepared and that may open a hole.

Scott

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-07-31

Did you happen to turn OFF the RBR for 1 minute then back ON after you noticed the unit was updated?
Also tried a different web browser to access the RBR after you couldn't get back in? Be sure to clear out all caches as well.

Historically, users have seen problems after auto update has happened. Sometimes a power OFF then back ON is all thats needed. Sometimes a reset is needed for others.

I agree, I don't really care much for auto update anything. I prefer to manually update myself.

@ChuckieCheese wrote:
Yes, I know about hard reset to factory, etc.

My point is the same: the auto-firmware update caused issue where the user is locked out from accessing the router.

It's NG decision to do auto-firmware update, but at least do it right and not cause issue like locking user out. And as a user, now I have to spend time doing reset, restore firmware, etc.? Does not sound user friendly at all.

CrimpOn · ‎2021-07-31

@SLK-Purdue wrote:
Does anybody from NG read this forum?

I think the answer to that is clearly, "no".

ChuckieCheese · ‎2021-07-31

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Did you happen to turn OFF the RBR for 1 minute then back ON after you noticed the unit was updated?

Also tried a different web browser to access the RBR after you couldn't get back in? Be sure to clear out all caches as well.

Yeah, I did the standard troubleshooting:

1. Power cycle, wait for a while, power back on

2. Use different browsers with cleared cache

3. Use different devices (Mac, iPad, etc.)

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Historically, users have seen problems after auto update has happened. Sometimes a power OFF then back ON is all thats needed. Sometimes a reset is needed for others.

So it IS a known problem, but yet Netgear still FORCE the firmware auto-update? Even if I hard reset, there is no guarantee future auto-firmware update will NOT cause the same issue.

PS: I am not blaming you, I am blaming Netgear for doing crap like this that cause headache to user.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-07-31

Ok, just checking.

Factory reset and if you have, load a back up config.

TOTALLY understand man. Totally. I've never been a fan of NGs auto update on Orbi systems. I know there non Orbi routers provide an option for users to disable that on those models. Why NG does this on Orbi is beyond understanding. Orbi AX systems is same way. Also removed telnet on those models as well.

I also feel that NG needs to allow more pre-release beta testing for a few field users to help weed out issues like this prior to going full on public push release. Would have avoid some of this mess if we had a chance to beta test it first. Something I'll be pointing out to NG soon.

@ChuckieCheese wrote:

@FURRYe38 wrote:
Did you happen to turn OFF the RBR for 1 minute then back ON after you noticed the unit was updated?

Also tried a different web browser to access the RBR after you couldn't get back in? Be sure to clear out all caches as well.
Yeah, I did the standard troubleshooting:
1. Power cycle, wait for a while, power back on
2. Use different browsers with cleared cache
3. Use different devices (Mac, iPad, etc.)

@FURRYe38 wrote:
Historically, users have seen problems after auto update has happened. Sometimes a power OFF then back ON is all thats needed. Sometimes a reset is needed for others.
So it IS a known problem, but yet Netgear still FORCE the firmware auto-update? Even if I hard reset, there is no guarantee future auto-firmware update will NOT cause the same issue.

PS: I am not blaming you, I am blaming Netgear for doing crap like this that cause headache to user.