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Navyav8r
Follower

SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

Running a new SimpliSafe doorbell and it keeps dropping offline. Technician says it needs to be on 2.4 specifically and seperate passwords would help. Is this possible on this system?

Thanks in advance. 

Model: CBR40|Orbi AC2200 Tri-band WiFi Cable Modem Router
Message 1 of 29
plemans
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

What most have had luck with is to turn down the broadcast power on the 5ghz signal during setup or you can try disabling the 5ghz ssid broadcast for setup.  Once setup, you can turn it back up/on.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Kindle-Paperwhite-not-found-my-Orbi-RBR40/m-p/1711049/highligh...

 

Also make sure your phone is on 2.4ghz during setup. Most of these systems will have issues if your phone is on 5ghz and you're trying to setup the device on 2.4ghz. 

CM2000-> RAX200-> GS716v2-> EX8000
Message 2 of 29
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

No. Orbi doesn't support splitting of the SSID or PWs. If the device only supports 2.4Ghz, then it will never see or use 5ghz. This is not a 5Ghz issue. 

 

What Firmware is currently loaded?
What is the Mfr and model# of the ISP modem the NG router is connected too?

What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?
What is the distance between the router and satellite(s)? 30 feet is recommended in between them to begin with depending upon building materials when wirelessly connected.

 

What channels are you using? Auto? Try setting manual channel 1 on 2.4Ghz.
Any Wifi Neighbors near by? If so, how many?

 

Try enabling Beamforming and MIMO(MIMO may or maynot be needed) and WMM. Under Advanced Tab/Advanced Settings/Wireless Settings

Try disabling the following and see:
Daisy Chain, Fast Roaming, IPv6 and Set 20/40Mhz Coexistence to 40Mhz only. Save settings and reboot the router and satellite(s).

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 3 of 29
Jetdrive
Luminary

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

Actually this is a 5ghz issue. If the phone or tablet is on 5ghz then some 2.4ghz devices cannot be set up. It's a very common issue where both the phone and device being setup must be on the same band. Getting off the 5ghz band temporarily  is the fix.

Message 4 of 29
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

No this is a IoT device Mfr software setup issue. There setup software limits or seems to require the setup mobile device to be connected to the 2.4Ghz radio. Mfrs forget that most mobile devices are dual band supporting devices. Thus the mobile devices prefer 5Ghz over 2.4Ghz and the Mfrs forget that 2.4 and 5ghz are on the SAME network. So if IoT Mfrs would take this into account and let there setup software work on 5Ghz for the setup mobile device, all this woudn't be a problem. 


Thanks to NG for helping these users out thought:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/orbi-20-cannot-connect-Swann-Camera/m-p/1822441/highlight/true...
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Kindle-Paperwhite-not-found-my-Orbi-RBR40/m-p/1712069/highligh...


@Jetdrive wrote:

Actually this is a 5ghz issue. If the phone or tablet is on 5ghz then some 2.4ghz devices cannot be set up. It's a very common issue where both the phone and device being setup must be on the same band. Getting off the 5ghz band temporarily  is the fix.


 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 5 of 29
Jetdrive
Luminary

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

Like I said the fix is to reduce or eliminate the 5ghz signal during setup of some 2.4ghz devices. Your are right to blame the manufacturers of the devices; however, the work-around to set up the device has to do with the 5ghz signal which you said was not a an issue. 

 

All we can do is complain to the manufacturers but that won't provide a quick fix as we all know from using Netgear products. 

Message 6 of 29
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

Yes, the complaints should be going to the Iot Mfrs. 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 7 of 29
CrimpOn
Sensei

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5


@Navyav8r wrote:

Running a new SimpliSafe doorbell and it keeps dropping offline. Technician says it needs to be on 2.4 specifically and seperate passwords would help. Is this possible on this system?


As others have pointed out, the issue is not "separate passwords" (which the Orbi does not support), but the fact that some device setup software is poorly written and the smartphone needs to be connected to the WiFi network at 2.4G for the software to function.  Complaining to the vendor is not a practical solution.  It's either return the product or find a work-around.

 

Have you tried this: 

  • Using the Orbi web interface, navigate to the Advanced Tab->Advanced Setup->Wireless Settings
  • For the 5G network, uncheck the box "Enable SSID Broadcast"
  • On the smartphone or tablet being used to set up the new device, go to the WiFi settings and "Forget" the Orbi WiFi.
  • Bring up the list of available WiFi networks.  The Orbi WiFi should be on the list.
  • Connect to the Orbi WiFi using the WiFi password.
  • (At this point, one could look at the Orbi web interface "Attached Devices" and verify that the smartphone is connected at 2.4G.)
  • Open the device setup app and set up the device, telling it the Orbi SSID and password.
  • Once the device is working, go back to the Orbi Wireless Settings and "Enable SSID Broadcast" on the 5G network.
  • If you want, go back to the smartphone WiFi settings, "Forget" again, and connect again.

It is more convenient to do this with two connections: one to the Orbi to change the SSID broadcast and look at Attached Devices and another to do the device setup.  It can all be done on one, but it's awkward.

 

I love my Orbi.
Message 8 of 29
dan801
Apprentice

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

Don't listen to Furrie. Everytime this is asked he keeps claiming its not possible even though its well known and documented that you can do it. 

 

Go here and follow the steps. A lot of IOT devices require seperate SSID to work and don't support band steering. 

 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/How-to-set-a-separate-SSID-for-the-5-GHz-network-on-your-Orbi/...

Message 9 of 29
schumaku
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5


@dan801 wrote:

Everytime this is asked he keeps claiming its not possible even though its well known and documented that you can do it. 


It's neither supported nor endorsed by Netgear. And the results and effects vary with the Orbi models and firmware releases - and might change again following a reboot. That's why some senior community members don't believe in such a "solution". Yes, @FURRYe38 - count me in here, too.

 


@dan801 wrote:

A lot of IOT devices require seperate SSID to work ...


Nope. Some crappy IoT require the discovery App to be run on 2.4 GHz for discovery of the 2.4 GHz IoC. At run-time, once configured, there is no such requirement.

A 2.4. GHz IoT will never connect to a 5 GHz AP because it can't see it at all - so it does not care about it.

The IoT devices should be configured to the "primary" and long-term single SSID - and not to a temporary "split" SSID config name.

 


@dan801 wrote:

A lot of IOT devices ... and don't support band steering. 


An AP with band steering will delay the association of a 2.4GHz client connection attempt awaiting another connection attempt on 5 GHz. If this does not happen, the 2.4GHz association will be allowed. What should the IoT not support now here? It does not recognize that the AP does any band steering - just the initial connection takes slightly longer.


And to round it up: Basic wireless clients as in place on many IoT don't care about neighbouring AP information coming over air from advanced APs (this is what the consumer wireless industry does understand under "Mesh" support). What can happen after a power failure? The primary AP (the Orbi router) can come up before the satellites do, so a "dumb" IoT will connect to the router - and stick - to that connection, even if a much better signal will come from on-air from the satellite after some delay. Lack of "Mesh" support, it will not learn about the neighbouring APs - and stick with the poor signal forever.

Now we come back to the subject SimplySafe devices: Start reading here: https://simplisafe.com/forum/customer-support-forum/installing-and-using-simplisafe/simplicam-losing... - thier community is full with connection loss, separating 2.4 and 5 GHz does not cure, some have issues with some specific AT&T routers, others report that changing to Orbi fixed the Simplysafe device disconnection problems. Funny, isn't it?

And then once more, please explain the interested reader why a configured wireless IoT (say one of these Simplysafe cameras and doorbells) which have "lost" the connection does not automatically re-connect to the wireless, and then to the cloud? That's very unlikely because of the 2.4 GHz wireless (again the only band the IoT does see and know about) has the same name like the 5 GHz ....

So @Navyav8r please share this information with the Simplysafe support engineer. I'm happy to read about thier explanation attempt.

Message 10 of 29
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

All my IoTs work with a single SSID name and PW. Zero need to separate SSID. Orbi works with IoTs as designed.

 

I say that it's NOT supported by NG!!

 

Again, this is a IoT Mfr issue and not a NG issue. For users who want there IoTs to work with Orbi, Just follow this simpler method and you'll be fine. 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/orbi-20-cannot-connect-Swann-Camera/m-p/1822441/highlight/true...
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Kindle-Paperwhite-not-found-my-Orbi-RBR40/m-p/1712069/highligh...

 

IoTs don't require separate SSIDs. 2.4Ghz only supporting IoTs don't even care or even SEE 5Ghz signals in the first place, so why would there be a need for a requirement or support band steering. It's not up to these device to bandsteer in the first place. The router does this. dual band devices may bandsteer since they have the ability to pick and choose which freqency to connect to since these dual band devices support both frequencies which are not seen on 2.4Ghz only IoT. 

 

You don't have to listen to me either. Smiley Wink

 

Good Luck. Heart


@dan801 wrote:

Don't listen to Furrie. Everytime this is asked he keeps claiming its not possible even though its well known and documented that you can do it. 

 

Go here and follow the steps. A lot of IOT devices require seperate SSID to work and don't support band steering. 

 

 


 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 11 of 29

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5


@dan801 wrote:

A lot of IOT devices require seperate SSID to work and don't support band steering. 

 


That's an interesting observation. I have never seen anyone suggesting that here before now.

 

Can you provide us with a link to a definitive.

 

Like everyone else, I run a  bunch of IoT stuff that happily runs on a wifi network with the same SSID for 2.5 and 5 GHz, but I am willing to read any evidence to the contrary.

 

In the last, people have had a lot of success by temporarily disabling  the 5 GHz SSID so that the set up process can work. But there may well be some devices that are even worse than those that insist on 2.4 GHz during setup. It would be good to know which devices they might be.

 

 

Just another user.

My network DM200 -> R7800 -> GS316 -> PL1000 -> Orbi RBR40 -> Orbi RBS50Y -> RBS40V
Message 12 of 29
CrimpOn
Sensei

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

I'm on the same page as @michaelkenward .  When I look for products, there are almost always alternatives at similar prices.  I would appreciate knowing which are not going to work on my Orbi system so that I can avoid purchasing them.

I love my Orbi.
Message 13 of 29
dan801
Apprentice

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

At the end of the day you and crimpon dribble your spew and tow the netgear line. Saying that it’s not possible is an outright lie. Someone asking a question on how to do it should be able to make up their own mind. Quick search shows that same question has been asked 183 with plenty of requests in the request section for the ability straight through the UI. Plenty of people are having issues with band steering and your posts do not help them.
Message 14 of 29
plemans
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

Am I the only one that's notice the OP hasn't said a thing since the original post? 

 

https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/366853-that-escalated-quickly

 

Wonder if @Navyav8r tried some of the possible solutions or had any luck getting it running? 

CM2000-> RAX200-> GS716v2-> EX8000
Message 15 of 29
CrimpOn
Sensei

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

I'm still looking for the specific products that cannot be connected to Orbi unless the 5G SSID is changed.  i.e. stopping the 5G broadcast is not enough to allow connection.  There are sales coming, and I do not enjoy the hassle of returning products.

I love my Orbi.
Model: RBR20|Orbi AC2200 Tri-band WiFi Router
Message 16 of 29
Jetdrive
Luminary

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

As far as I know there is no list. Where would that list come from? It would be nice if someone could start a thread with their experiences with different IOT devices but as far as I know there is no list. Not sure one is needed either. It so easy to work around this issue that it's almost a non-issue. 

 

Message 17 of 29
CrimpOn
Sensei

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

Well, your comment may be "spot on".  Certainly, every IoT device that I have purchased connected just fine.  I'm hoping that somebody will produce specific instances where the only way to connect the device was to put a different SSID on the 5G network.  When people described problems with some devices, such as a Teckin outdoor smart plug, I bought one on Amazon and found that it connected easily.  (My Christmas lights are on it right now.)  I'm not about to purchase a bunch of $200 things I don't need, but some $25 items, sure.

I love my Orbi.
Message 18 of 29

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5


@Jetdrive wrote:

As far as I know there is no list. Where would that list come from?

 


Possibly because the whole idea of a list doesn't make sense. We only have it on the word of one person that "a lot of IoT devices" demand separate SSIDs. That they cannot name even one device, and refuse to address that issue rather than something completely different, tells us a lot.

 


@Jetdrive wrote:

Not sure one is needed either. It so easy to work around this issue that it's almost a non-issue. 

 


To me that sums it all up.

 

Evidence doesn't work with some people, but until we have details of even one reluctant device, I think we can safely move on to more important things.

 

 

 

Just another user.

My network DM200 -> R7800 -> GS316 -> PL1000 -> Orbi RBR40 -> Orbi RBS50Y -> RBS40V
Message 19 of 29
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

@michaelkenward @CrimpOn @Jetdrive 

 

We see alot of complaints and requests about IoT requiring this "supposed" requirement of IoT needing separation of SSID. However we see little mention of the IoT users who have gotton there IoTs working with the temporary disabling of the 5G SSID:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/v2-5-0-38-undoes-SSD-split-is-there-a-fix/m-p/1816546/highligh...
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/orbi-20-cannot-connect-Swann-Camera/m-p/1822475/highlight/true...
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/HOW-TO-DISABLE-5G-TEMPORARILY-ON-ORBI-ROUTER/m-p/1566398#M3121...
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Using-devices-that-require-2-4ghz-on-Orbi/m-p/1683574/highligh...
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Kindle-Paperwhite-not-found-my-Orbi-RBR40/m-p/1711049/highligh...

 

For the most part, users of IoT have zero knowledge or understanding of the methods and processes the IoT software is designed and set up for. There just basically under the information from the Mfr and the long standing assumption that since the IoTs are only supporting of 2.4Ghz, that some how the 5Ghz and single SSID name used on Orbi interferes with the setup process of these 2.4Ghz only supporting devices. These users fail to understand that these are only 2.4Ghz devices. Will never see or have the ability to see or use 5Ghz. They also fail to understand that the setup mobile devices, I.E Phones and Pads ARE dual band supporting, thus 2.4G and 5G which will mostly use 5G connections. IoT Mfrs and user also fail to understand that 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz ARE on the SAME WLAN SIDE NETWORK, thus data traffic can be seen from one frequency to the other on these mobile devices when connected to either of these frequencies. 

 

IoT Mfrs and users fail to see that it's the IoT setup software that is where the problem lies. It's not with the IoT device nor with Orbi, its this IoT setup software that seems to require the phone or pad to be connected to the 2.4Ghz. If IoT mfrs opened up the software code and let the phone or pad to be connected to either frequency, while the IoT was still on 2.4Ghz, then all this would be solved. 

 

The Iot Mfrs may required this, however users posts and information seen in the behavirors after the 5G is disabled on Orbi says that this is a IoT setup software limitation. Other router mfr may offer ways of separating SSIDs which makes the IoT work, however this still avoids the main flaw of the IoT mfrs and there set software limiting of the setup phone or device to 2.4Ghz SSIDs. 

 

Stop blaming routers mfrs and start asking the IoT mfrs to open up there setup software and setup phones and pads to work on either frequency. Smart Connect and single SSID operations has been around since 2012/3. It's not new tech and it seems to be most promient in any dual or tri band router system. It should be rocket science for IoT mfrs to re-design there setup software to support dual back phones and pads. 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 20 of 29
Jetdrive
Luminary

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

I don't think anyone is blaming Netgear or any other router manufacturer. It is obviously the IOT manufacturer. The problem is that some here say that 5ghz is not an issue in resolving the problem. (I think you remember saying that) Yes it is, as during setup when the device used to setup is on 5ghz and the device being setup is on 2.4ghz. The fix to the manufacturers problem is to to temporarily make 5ghz unavailable during the setup. Once setup is complete, things can be returned to normal. 

Message 21 of 29
schumaku
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

Yes - unfortunately this does not explain why the OP does experience connection loss 8-)
Message 22 of 29

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5


@FURRYe38 wrote:

 

However we see little mention of the IoT users who have gotton there IoTs working with the temporary disabling of the 5G SSID:


I don't understand. I have seen lots of those mentions.

 

Your links highlight several of those.

 

Am I  missing something here?

Just another user.

My network DM200 -> R7800 -> GS316 -> PL1000 -> Orbi RBR40 -> Orbi RBS50Y -> RBS40V
Message 23 of 29
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

Just that poeple seem to complain or mention that there is no solutions rather than methoning that there are and others have found resolutions in using them is all. Some users seem to bring up more negativity than bring out anything positive. 

 

Anwyays, I we should check on the OP to see if his problems have been resolved. 


@michaelkenward wrote:

@FURRYe38 wrote:

 

However we see little mention of the IoT users who have gotton there IoTs working with the temporary disabling of the 5G SSID:


I don't understand. I have seen lots of those mentions.

 

Your links highlight several of those.

 

Am I  missing something here?


 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 24 of 29
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: SEPERATE PASSWORDS FOR 2.4 and 5

5Ghz is not the problem though. Users forget that 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz are on the same network. IoT HW will only see 2.4Ghz for those that only support 2.4Ghz. Never see any 5Ghz. Why is it that these IoT mfrs don't allow dual band supporting setup mobile devices to use either frequency with in there setup software? Saving money? Maybe. Or just lazy programming. Smiley Wink


@Jetdrive wrote:

I don't think anyone is blaming Netgear or any other router manufacturer. It is obviously the IOT manufacturer. The problem is that some here say that 5ghz is not an issue in resolving the problem. (I think you remember saying that) Yes it is, as during setup when the device used to setup is on 5ghz and the device being setup is on 2.4ghz. The fix to the manufacturers problem is to to temporarily make 5ghz unavailable during the setup. Once setup is complete, things can be returned to normal. 


 

My Setup (Cable 1Gbps/50Mbps)>CM1200 v2.02.03(LAG Disabled)>RBK853 v3.2.17.12
RBK50 v2.7.2.104(WW) Circle Enabled
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CAX80/CM2000, Orbi CBK40, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 25 of 29
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