Re: Seeking feedback on Mesh network design

fanofai · ‎2021-04-18

Hi,

We are evaluating how to design a mesh network for our apartment community using the Orbi RBK53 router along with 2-RBS50Y outdoor extenders. The main idea is to support security cameras (& nothing else!). Based on indoor trial runs, the camera is able to upload videos to the cloud using a 4Mbps wireless connection. The next step is to run a pilot effort and set the camera outdoors and hence the need for a mesh WiFi.

In the linked proposal below,

Router is placed at the square box labeled R, and the Extender is labeled E.
wireless security cameras (on 2.4G network) will be placed at the boxes labeled C, and the blue boxes in the figure.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZVttGAjXdqNgSjbM-Li5ONjV-7Z2EWeo/view?usp=sharing

(also attached if the link doesn't work)

Any feedback on the following questions would be greatly helpful. Thanks in advance!

For the pilot effort (page 1of link below), straight-line distance from the router (labeled R) to the extender (labeled E) is 40meters or ~120 feet, and has no obstructions. Based on online reviews (Reference link 1) the Router-Extender Combo should be able to handle this distance comfortably. Any comments?
For the final layout (on page 2), the router is going to be moved to the Clubhouse in the community. The distance between the router and extender now exceeds well over 100 meters not to mention there are building in-between the two. Hence, the plan is to have an extender in the middle at ~50 meters.
Are Orbi RBK53 router & 2-RBS50Y outdoor extenders the right products to be used? If other products are more suitable, can you please suggest those?
Since this is the first time I am setting up a mesh network, any basic pointers to keep in mind?

Thanks,

fanofai

References:

1. Reviewer claims to get nearly 100% signal strength at extender which is placed at a straight line distance of 28 meters from the router

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16z3GuFcrrs&t=387s

CrimpOn · ‎2021-04-19

All this to monitor 1 out of 4 dumpsters?

(and from pretty far away)

I would be tempted to look at an LTE solution, such as this one:https://reolink.com/us/product/reolink-go/

Those distances will be a struggle for WiFi.

You might look at Ubiquiti, rather than a mesh system intended to support a single house. I believe they have products specifically designed for things like mounting security cameras.

fanofai · ‎2021-04-19

Thanks CrimpOn.

"All this to monitor 1 out of 4 dumpsters?"

Nope! The plan is to have 1-camera per dumpster (see attached) to monitor illegal dumping & dumpster abuse, as well as 1-camera for each of the 2 entrances. In total 6-cameras, and possibly a few more if the need arises.

The LTE solution wouldn't work for us due to the high traffic. The existing camera uploads ~2GB of data every day!

"You might look at Ubiquiti, rather than a mesh system intended to support a single house. "

Thanks..I shall check that too.

-Sharath

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-19

Orbi 50 series is for home class configurations. You might try Orbi pro. There meant for low end business. However distance will still be a problem along with other noise and conditions.

For cameras, you should look into wired camera solutions instead.

Good Luck.

fanofai · ‎2021-04-19

Thanks Furrye38

"For cameras, you should look into wired camera solutions instead. "

We've debated these internally. It seems the work needed to install a wired system is a lot esp for a big property that spans 250,000 sq. ft, though i admit we aren't necessarily targeting installing cameras at periphery of community, and that in the long run, a wired system may be cheaper.

BTW, It seems the RBS50Y Outood Extender is not compatible with the Orbi Pro! Amazon page states:

"Not compatible with Orbi WiFi 6 Systems"

I looked instead at an Orbi Pro Wifi 6 system (both router & satellite. While the Orbi Pro page says the wifi-6 satellite is good for Indoor & Outdoor usage, the datasheet says nothing about outdoor compability. Has anyone used these units outdoors?

Thanks,

Sharath

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-19

"Grows with Your Business

Connect additional satellites with or without wires to extend your coverage indoors and outdoors by 3,000 sq. ft."

Means that some wifi coverage can be seen out side from the inside. Doesn't mean there are out site RBS units.

I would post abou this in the Orbi Pro forum though:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-Pro-WiFi-for-Small-Business/bd-p/en-business-orbi-pro

Good Luck.

CrimpOn · ‎2021-04-19

Thanks for the explanation. Security cameras present logistical problems:

How to get power to the cameras.
How to get the video signal from the camera to the NVR (or other server).
How to protect the camera from valdalism/theft.

In my (limited) experience, the logistical issues often interact. Power & signal can be handled with Power over Ethernet which uses one cable to provide both power and communications. This is obviously impractical given the scale of this installation. When ethernet cannot be run to the camera location, WiFi can provide communications as long as there is a local power source. (I have used both solutions.) The suggestion of Ubiquity (or something similar) easily handles the distance for communication and supports high resolution PoE cameras, but requires electrical power at each location (costly and probably unsightly).

You solution addresses the issues without requiring cable or electrical outlets:

Solar/battery to provide power to the cameras.
WiFi to provide communications.
Mounting "out of reach" for physical security but totally independent of power/communication cables.

My 5MP cameras which record "motion only" on a really quiet street produce 3-6GB/day. At 2GB/day, my guess is that your cameras are 1024 resolution and the WiFi is 2.4G. Whatever solution is deployed, it might be a good idea to provide for future camera upgrades to provide higher resolution (and needing higher bandwidth.)

Would you mind sharing how all those individual housing units get Internet service? (Obviously somebody has a network spanning the entire property. Maybe there is a way to tie into it?)

What is the plan to get electrical to the Router (in the test setup) and the Extenders?

I like the idea of running tests first. I would use an inexpensive WiFi router, like a TP-Link A7 and move a camera around to see what distances "work".

CrimpOn · ‎2021-04-19

@fanofai wrote:
I looked instead at an Orbi Pro Wifi 6 system (both router & satellite. While the Orbi Pro page says the wifi-6 satellite is good for Indoor & Outdoor usage, the datasheet says nothing about outdoor compability. Has anyone used these units outdoors?

Correct, only the RBS50Y is intended for outdoor installation.

The RBS50Y has had mixed reviews regarding how "weatherproof" it is. A solution which seems to work for one user is to place an indoor rated unit inside a weatherproof enclosure: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=weatherproof+router+box&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

fanofai · ‎2021-04-19

Thank you.. Looks liks there is a version 2 of the RBS50Y. In any case, I have asked the question to be sure:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-Pro-WiFi-for-Small-Business/Outdoor-Options-for-Extending-Orbi...

-Sharath

CrimpOn · ‎2021-04-19

@fanofai wrote:
Thank you.. Looks liks there is a version 2 of the RBS50Y.

I believe that version 2 has two different firmware loads: one as an Orbi satellite on the original residential AC WiFi system and the other as a WiFi extender on any Wifi router, which would include the Pro and AX product lines.

The reservation about weather resistance stems from several posts from users who found their RBS50Y "filled with water" (literally) and dead.

fanofai · ‎2021-04-19

@CrimpOn , @FURRYe38 : Thank you both for your feedback, suggestions. Consolidating my responses:

"Would you mind sharing how all those individual housing units get Internet service? (Obviously somebody has a network spanning the entire property. Maybe there is a way to tie into it?)"

Eventually the plan is to get internet service from a provider like Comcast/AT&T into the Clubhouse, marked as R in the original PDF, page 2, place the (Orbi) router there and then spread the network outdoors using the Extenders. For the pilot, one of the residents has volunteered their home internet.

"What is the plan to get electrical to the Router (in the test setup) and the Extenders?"

The router gets power from the Clubhouse and one of the Extenders gets it from the laundry room. Getting power to the 3rd extender is a challenge though there is possbility of tapping power from a nearby lightpole and mounting the extender on the lightpole itself.

"I like the idea of running tests first. I would use an inexpensive WiFi router, like a TP-Link A7 and move a camera around to see what distances "work"."

Yes, for the pilot, the plan is to purchase only the extender and see if it can work with our current TP-Link router.

Thanks for the links on the enclosure..will check, and also, i need to research a bit on Ubiquity. I am looking at this currently.

-Sharath

CrimpOn · ‎2021-04-19

I have concerns about WiFi and battery operated cameras. (All the solar does is charge the battery, not increase the voltage or amperage.)

The convenience is fantastic. It's the performance I doubt.

PoE offers some (different) advantages:

There are many PoE cameras with a variety of features.
Different resolution.
Different Lenses, or Zoom.
Pan and Tilt.
The two ethernet cables allowconsiderable flexibility in where the WiFi unit and the Camera are located.
One cable connects a PoE injector at an electrical outlet to the WiFi unit.
A second cable connects the WiFi unit to the camera.
For example, the WiFi unit could be located where it gets good line-of-sight to the WiFi base unit (or repeater), while
the camera could be located where it has a good view of the surveillance area.
The only visible evidence would be an exterior rated ethernet cable, which looks a lot like a cable TV coax cable and can be painted to match the building.

I enjoyed looking at outdoor rated PoE parts, such as this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Waterproof-ethernet-Splitter-Compliant-Surveillance/dp/B0899B2LPX/ref=sr_1_3?...

Depending on your location, there may be an installer near by who would be happy to offer suggestions. Are you located anywhere near one of these companies:

https://www.ui.com/distributors/

I am guessing you have already driven around similar housing complexes and observed which have security cameras (and perhaps talked to their management about why they did what they did and how they feel about the results)?

fanofai · ‎2021-04-19

"

I have concerns about WiFi and battery operated cameras. (All the solar does is charge the battery, not increase the voltage or amperage.)

The convenience is fantastic. It's the performance I doubt."

I had checked with the Reolink customer support team and they had this to say:

"2. Our solar panel could work when it is facing direct sunlight only.
And it will take about 4 hours to fully charge the battery.

Normally, it's not necessary to separately charge the battery if there is 2 hrs worth of recording done every day."

For our use case of ~2 hrs worth of recording per day, it seems the panel is good enough. So probably worth giving it a try at least for the pilot phase. Though one thing that hasn't been stated above is that the batteries are warranted only for 2-years though Reolink claims a 5-year battery life.

Reference: https://support.reolink.com/hc/en-us/articles/900000421243-How-Long-does-the-Battery-Last-for-Argus-...

CrimpOn · ‎2021-04-20

Sorry I was not clear. I have the original Reolink Argus camera, and have no doubt that the solar panel will keep the battery charged enough to provide operation indefinitely. My concern is more with the WiFi performance over an extended distance.

Security cameras are frustrating experience. Either they record too much or they record too little or too late. Reolink's cameras are no different in this regard from any other brand.

Battery cameras utilize PIR sensors to trigger recording because they require a tiny (very tiny) amount of current to operate. Basically most of the camera's electronics are idle waiting for the PIR sensor to trigger operation. This is why there are so many complaints that "the UPS man dropped a package on my porch and was gone before the camera started recording anything." And, getting the right "sensitivity" is a challenge.

Powered security cameras can keep the electronics going all the time. My Reolink PoE cameras record constantly and when "motion" is triggered, they begin the event file 5 seconds before the trigger point. Newer powered cameras often feature software to identify people, animals, vehicles, packages, etc. so they are not tricked into recording when trees sway or create shadows. (When I put the college flag out on football game days, one camera essentially records constantly.)

Please let us know how the experiment turns out. Just having cameras mounted on the walls may be enough to improve behavior.

alokeprasad · ‎2021-04-20

BTW, the same thing is true for Ring cameras.

Too high latency in the battery (or battery+solar panel) cameras comapred to powered ca,eras (doorbells or POE).

fanofai · ‎2021-04-20

@CrimpOn

"Please let us know how the experiment turns out. Just having cameras mounted on the walls may be enough to improve behavior."

Will do. You are right, the current experiment on 1-camera has already shown improved behavior. The challenge now is to scale it to the entire community.

@alokeprasad

"

BTW, the same thing is true for Ring cameras.

Too high latency in the battery (or battery+solar panel) cameras comapred to powered ca,eras (doorbells or POE)."

Valid point. In our current experiment, we've used the Simplisafe indoor camera and faced sensitivity issues. However after upping the camera sensitivity to max in the app, we get very good results and don't think we missed anything.

-Sharath

fanofai · ‎2021-04-20

"I like the idea of running tests first. I would use an inexpensive WiFi router, like a TP-Link A7 and move a camera around to see what distances "work".

I did a few basic speedtests as a proxy for moving around the camera (due to the convenience of moving the phone around). Note that my ISP advertises a Downloads speed upto 100 Mbps, which I can indeed get when I run a speedtest using a Macbook Pro about 10-12 feet straightline distance from the router However for thr purposes of the test, I just used the phone for convenience.

I measured the speed at the camera as a baseline: Download/Upload: ~16 / ~5 Mbps. This is approximately ~10-12 ft from the TP-Link router with a glass door in between.
Stepping away another 10 feet away past the concrete compound reduces the speed to <1Mbps both download & Upload.

I went further away too, and speeds were lower or in some cases the speedtest (by Ookla app) would just fail.

At this point I do think trying out the Wireless signal strength with a Orbi router & extender together will likely give the best real-world data of what speeds are available when the extender is placed ~30 meters away from the router. I feel that will give a realistic sense of whether the bandwidth is indeed sufficient or not to support the cameras.

Thanks,
Sharath

fanofai · ‎2021-04-21

@CrimpOn : You mentioned you have the Reolink Argus camera. I had a question about the cloud backup if it's okay:

1. Does the basic plan essentially give you a rolling window of the videos that were captured whenever the motion sensor was triggered?

2.

2. Not sure if you have multiple cameras. Does reolink have a nice web-interface or app where you can view the videos from all cameras on a single dashboard?

Thanks,

Sharath

CrimpOn · ‎2021-04-21

Alas, I have not signed up for Reolink's "Cloud Storage" option. All of my cameras record to internal SD Cards and my PoE cameras also FTP motion recordings to a server (my desktop computer).

The Reolink Client for Windows/Mac allows viewing 1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 16, 25, or 36 camera at one time. Having only 7 cameras active right now, I've attached some screen shots.