Switching backhaul from wifi to wired caused problems...

[PKleeberg]

Guess the old adage if it ain't broke don't fix it applied here.

After years of use I decided to try and switch my Orby router and satellites to an ethernet backhaul from Wi-Fi. The Orbi router is connected directly to a cable modem and connected to my intranet via a ethernet switch (User manual p15 bottom). That has worked for years and the satellitess have been in series via a WiFi backhaul. I connected the two satellites via ethernet to the same intranet network. After a few moments, the router indicated that the satellites switched from WiFi to wired in the Network Map and they were each linked directly to the router (in parallel)  It appeared to work at first but then I got odd results. One satellite. Indicated that it was connected to a number of devices whereas the second satellite wasn't connected to any wireless devices. I rebooted the router, satellites and the switch but then I had trouble connecting to the router.  Some devices in the house could not connect

I puulled the ethernet cables from the satellites rebooted the router and satellites and everything is working again.

Is there a step that I am missing?  I really want to switch to ethernet because I have heard it will work so much better (though it works great as it is).

Paul

[CrimpOn]

It appears you have configured ethernet backhaul correctly.  The Orbi 'app' is often criticized for not displaying connection status correctly.  I often ask, "what does the Orbi web interface show? (http://orbilogin.net)  Does the  web interface match the app display?

As to ethernet backhaul being "so much better", that depends primarily on the speed of the internet connection.  If the internet connection is under 500mb, it may be very difficult to notice a significant difference.  The second satellite  that was "Daisy Chained" through another satellite to reach the router will show the most improvement, because traffic now takes 'one less hop'.

The big differences between ethernet and WiFi are:

• Ethernet is inherently full duplex.  Traffic can flow in both directions at the same time at nearly 1000mb/sec.  (I routinely measure over 900mb/sec over ethernet using iPerf3 - a common throughput measuring tool.)
• WiFi is radio traffic where only one device may transmit at a time. Every other device must wait until transmission stops before attempting to transmit.  If there are 20 devices connected to the same WIFi channel, then 19 of them must remain silent when one is talking.
• WiFi signal strength diminishes with distance and building materials.  Whereas the Orbi RBR50 claims a maximum transmission rate of 1,733mb/sec, notice that footnote in tiny print.  In my tests, an Orbi router and satellite within 10 ft. of each other with no walls between them never achieve even half of that speed.  In a typical installation, it is much more common to see link rates in the 600-700mb range.
• WiFi has tremendous overhead in the form of Management Frames.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.11_Frame_Types 
  Every access point sends out Beacon frames as often as 10 times a second, and that's just one type of management frame.
  With one router and two satellites broadcasting a primary and guest WiFi on the same channel (channel 48 for 5G), that could result in 10 times 3 times 2 = 60 Beacon frames every second.
• WiFi is shared.  If your neighbors have similar WiFi networks, their access point and user devices may be sharing the same channel, creating the same overhead, and waiting for their turn to broadcast.

So, ethernet connections for both user devices and backhaul links are far superior in terms of maximum capability than typical WiFi links.  But, does it matter in real life?  Streaming 4K video requires about 25mb/sec, which is probably well within the capability of 5G WiFi as long as you and the neighbors are not attempting to stream 20 videos at the same time.

All that said, if it was practical to connect my Orbi satellites with ethernet, I would do it in a heartbeat.

[PKleeberg]

CriopOn

Thank you for a great reply. I want to clarify a few things that you mentioned.

The place that I noticed the changes was actually in the web interface (Orbilogin.com) with the router. Second, I actually have 200 Mbs download speed so the wired backhaul is really going to make a positive difference especially for the satellite 2. My network is a mixture of 1 Gb ethernet and Wi-Fi.

I will try to direct connecting the most distant satellite (#2) since that should make the greatest difference, however I still do not understand why the router was unable to connect to the Internet after rebooting the router, the satellite, and the main switch. There are also two 8 port switches that the satellites connect to. These switches share ethernet connection with a TiVo, a TV, a Blu-ray disc player, and an Apple TV.

I also have a mixture of fixed IPs in the network with the range of DHCP defined between 60 and 200. I will check to see if there is a IP conflict after connecting satellite #2

I will update this post once I've tried a few other options.

Happy Thanksgiving

Paul

[PKleeberg]

The saga goes on....

I connected the distant satellite (2) to ethernet and orbilogin.net shows that it is wired with a good backhaul status however there are many devices that no longer appear on the web page.  the iPhone app shows the status of these missing devices as offline.  I am able to use terminal to log into one mac mini with a fixed IP that shows as offline and so a sudo restart.  I am able attach to it with either via IP or with "Network" in the finder to see the screen.

Also interesting, a hard wired Apple TV, sitting right next to Satellite 1 still using a WiFi backhaul, cannot be seen by either that web interface or the iPhone app.  I am able to ping it.

I am reluctant to reset the devices to factory.  It took me a long time to get this right since so many of my devices have fixed IPs and I have a fixed IP Internet connection.

BTW, firmware V2..7.3.22. "the latest"

Any ideas?

Paul

[CrimpOn]

Random thoughts:

• Firmware V2.7.3.22 is a contentious subject on the forum. I experience no problems with it on either of my two Orbi RBR50 systems, but  there have been many posts describing everything from continuous disconnections to outright failure.  There are many users who sincerely believe that a previous firmware version is 'stable' and V2.7.3.22 is not and they want to return to that stable version.  This is an complicated task because Netgear will almost immediately force an update back to V2.7.3.22.  These users have resorted to some drastic measures to combat this.  (Some have installed routers ahead of the Orbi to block update access.  Another has signed up for OpenDNS to block updates. One has even recompiled the Orbi source code with a change that blocks the updates!)
  If your Orbi was not functional, reverting firmware and blocking updates appears to be the only solution.
  
• My sense is that the system is working in terms of actual user devices and the issue is that the Orbi does not correctly list devices that are connected to the network.  And, this happens only when a satellite backhaul uses ethernet rather than WiFi.
  
• It appears to me that this is a question of "which is more important?" (a) getting maximum performance, or (b) having device information that is correct. Thousands of customers never look at their WiFi systems.  Heck, from what I see on my neighborhood WiFi scans, plenty of customers do not even change the default WiFi credentials that came with their systems. For sure they are not puttering around with static IPs, etc. I have 200mb service from Spectrum and three satellites all backhauled over WiFi.  I see absolutely no performance issues, but then I am not a 'power user'.  We have not 'cut the cord' and thus still get television over cable rather than internet.  My guess is that we could easily stream two 4K video streams and still not notice any problems.  If we had four people playing World of Bunny Hop while streaming multiple TV's, etc. etc., maybe a wired backhaul would make a difference.
  
• Another example is when I connect directly to a satellite and display Connected Devices. (One of my pet peeves.  Devices "Attach" to the router, but "Connect" to satellites. and no one in Netgear has ever told the engineers, "Hey. Pick one term and stick with it.")
  Anyway, satellites seem to think the names of a lot of devices are "Unknown".  Part of me says, "If this is worth putting on the satellite menu, it should be correct." My other side thinks that on a scale of 1 to 10, it ranks pretty low.

Geez. Ask a simple question and some old fart rambles on and on, but has no solution to offer. Sorry.

[PKleeberg]

CrimpOn

Fron one old fart to another, I find your replies educational though I agree the answer evades both of us.

I have finally switched both satellites to wired backhaul and I can still control devices that do not show up on the web or iPhone interface.  I have had to reset a few of the WiFi devices to the network but they then operate fine once that is done.

I dread to think what I will need to do if I have to reboot the router.  Thata is where I got into trouble last time.  But for now, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" prevails with the new configuration even though the web and iPhone app claims devices are not connected.

If I learn anything new, I will post it here.

Paul

[FURRYe38]

How are the RBS connected to the RBR? Directly in back of the RBR or is there a LAN switch in between or using pre-existing in wall LAN cable system?

What CAT# cables are you using? CAT6 is recommended. 

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@PKleeberg wrote:

CrimpOn

Fron one old fart to another, I find your replies educational though I agree the answer evades both of us.

I have finally switched both satellites to wired backhaul and I can still control devices that do not show up on the web or iPhone interface.  I have had to reset a few of the WiFi devices to the network but they then operate fine once that is done.

I dread to think what I will need to do if I have to reboot the router.  Thata is where I got into trouble last time.  But for now, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" prevails with the new configuration even though the web and iPhone app claims devices are not connected.

If I learn anything new, I will post it here.

Paul

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[PKleeberg]

FURRYe38

I am using cat 5e.  I laid all the LAN cable myself ~10 years ago.

Router -> 16 Port 1G switch -> 8 port 1G switch -> Satellite 1

Router -> 16 Port 1G switch -> 4 port 1G switch -> 8 port 1G switch -> Satellite 2

As I said earlier, everything appears to work deppite some devices missing from browser and app inrerface showing them as off line.

Paul

[FURRYe38]

What is the Mfr and model# of the ethernet switches in the configuration?

Try this, set up one RBS directly connected to the back of the RBR, with out any switches. Connect 1 devices to the RBS. Check the RBS status and connected devices page on the RBS web page. Then check same on the RBR and Orbi app. 

[PKleeberg]

FURRYe38,

I am not sure what that will get me.  The satellites are functioning on the ethernet backhaul and there are connected devices and "unattached" devices to each of the satellites and that are functioning on the network.

Everything appears to be working it is just the web and app interfaces that appear to be provising inaccurate information.

[FURRYe38]

Checking to see if the switches could be interferring with web UI and Orbi app reporting of devices. Wondering if no switches are in the mix, does this still happen or not. If it still happens, then it maybe a FW issue. 

Something also to look at and try:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Missing-Connected-Devices/m-p/2142349/highlight/true#M126110

[PKleeberg]

I do not feel there is a need for me to test this.  I would have to get or make a 40+ foot cable to connect to the distant satellite where it is located.  Else It would liklely not attach to the devices that are working, yet not showing up and are at the other end of the house.

[FURRYe38]

Something you can test out with the RBS in same room or near the RBR. 

Well, eitherway, something to let NG support know about. if it's a FW or app issue, NG will need to review and look into it. Nothing else here we can do otherwise. 

[CrimpOn]

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@PKleeberg wrote:

I do not feel there is a need for me to test this.  I would have to get or make a 40+ foot cable to connect to the distant satellite where it is located.  Else It would liklely not attach to the devices that are working, yet not showing up and are at the other end of the house.

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Exactly the reason I purchased some 50' ethernet cables from Amazon. At under $15 each, I always have a cable on hand to wire up a new PoE security camera.  And to do crazy experiments like this, which I do only when alone in the house.

[PKleeberg]

@CrimpOn Yes and I probably have about 900' left in a box of cat6 cable that I use do create create my own wires as needed.  The ones I  installed years ago are 5e. I ain's as limber as I used to be so I am not going to crawl switch them to Cat6 unless I need to.  I just measured it.  If I wanted to directly connect the RBR and RBS without moving either of them, doubling back on stairs etc, it appears I would need la cable 141' long.

By the way, is there any way to test the speed between the RBR and the RBS including packets lost?

Paul

[CrimpOn]

Cat 5e is perfectly  capable of gigabit speed over distances up to 90 meters, so typical house wiring is "no problem."

I know of no Orbi feature that reports the backhaul performance. My "go to" tool for this is iPerf3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iperf  I use the Windows, Linux, and Android versions. https://iperf.fr/iperf-download.php 

When I connect Intel i7 cpu two desktop computers to the Orbi gigabit LAN ports, iPerf3 typically reports 920+mb/sec in both directions. (Ethernet being full duplex).  For example, I read that the Raspberry Pi model 4 has 'native gigabit' whereas the model 3b+ was just faking gigabit.  Sure enough, Windows to Pi4b reported 945mb in both directions and the 3b+ reported only 256mb.  If you set up iPerf3 on both sides of a backhaul, that will measure the raw throughput of the link.  The WiFi backhaul link has considerable overhead and is inherently half duplex, so I would be interested to see what you measure.

My other main tool is hrping. https://www.cfos.de/en/ping/ping.htm#google_vignette It is available only for Windows, so I use the desktop that is cabled directly to the Orbi router to test ping responses from various devices on the network. I ran some tests generating 5,000 pings between the base machine and various devices, some across the WiFi backhaul and calculated the maximum, minimum, average, etc. (see attached)

Between raw throughput and variability in ping responces, it is possible to get a rough idea of what is going on (I hope).