V2.3.5.30 Upgrade Has Been A Disaster

[ar9]

I have an Orbi router with three satellites all connected with Backhaul status "Good". Our experience has been touch and go with the Orbi with Satellites and device connections dropping intermittently. When it works its great, but working half or even much of the time is not enough. Everyone told me to upgrade the firmware so I finally upgraded each device to the latest firmware V2.3.5.30 (that was a nighmare by itself) and now our internet access has become a disaster. Internet sites are unreachable because https requests receive errors on the www.routerlogin.net certificate - suddenly I get notification that the the certificate expired on Aug 2, 2019 (Really???). I can log on to the Orbi router, but when I try to connect to any of the Satellites via IP Address in the web browser I get the standard "This device is blocked by Access Control in the router" as though I'm blocked in access control. That was the only way I was able to upgrade the Satellites one by one, and now I can't control them at all. Yes I moved them right up next to the router and still no luck. I am so frustrated and disappointed with this garbage. I was willing to spend money to get good coverage, and then more money for an additional satellite for further coverage. Now I have absolutely NOTHING!!!!! Does NETGEAR monitor these forums? My wife is an executive at COSTCO and she is LIVID!!! 

[Retired_Member]

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@ar9 wrote:

 Everyone told me to upgrade the firmware so I finally upgraded each device to the latest firmware V2.3.5.30 (that was a nighmare by itself) and now our internet access has become a disaster.

...not everyone.  You might try to backstep/revert your FW to the previous version.  Why (besides THEY told you too) did you upgrade the FW?

[FURRYe38]

Try a factory reset and setup from scratch. Sounds like there is a mis-configuration of the system is all that needs to be cleared out. 

Be sure you upgraded the RBS first before the RBR when you do a FW update. 

What is the Mfr and model# of the ISP modem the NG router is connected too?
Is the Orbi system operating in Router or AP mode?

What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?
What is the distance between the router and satellite(s)? 30 feet is recommended in between them to begin with depending upon building materials when wirelessly connected.

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@ar9 wrote:

I have an Orbi router with three satellites all connected with Backhaul status "Good". Our experience has been touch and go with the Orbi with Satellites and device connections dropping intermittently. When it works its great, but working half or even much of the time is not enough. Everyone told me to upgrade the firmware so I finally upgraded each device to the latest firmware V2.3.5.30 (that was a nighmare by itself) and now our internet access has become a disaster. Internet sites are unreachable because https requests receive errors on the www.routerlogin.net certificate - suddenly I get notification that the the certificate expired on Aug 2, 2019 (Really???). I can log on to the Orbi router, but when I try to connect to any of the Satellites via IP Address in the web browser I get the standard "This device is blocked by Access Control in the router" as though I'm blocked in access control. That was the only way I was able to upgrade the Satellites one by one, and now I can't control them at all. Yes I moved them right up next to the router and still no luck. I am so frustrated and disappointed with this garbage. I was willing to spend money to get good coverage, and then more money for an additional satellite for further coverage. Now I have absolutely NOTHING!!!!! Does NETGEAR monitor these forums? My wife is an executive at COSTCO and she is LIVID!!! 

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[Retired_Member]

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

Try a factory reset and setup from scratch. Sounds like there is a mis-configuration of the system is all that needs to be cleared out. 

Be sure you upgraded the RBS first before the RBR when you do a FW update. 

This COULD land him right back where he was

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[ar9]

After working fine for many months, devices that connected via the satellites were getting invalid certificate errors and couldn't access any https sites. Devices that connected directly to the router were ok. I contacted Netgear and spoke with several people who started with factory resets etc. but eventually "everyone" of them told me to upgrade to the latest firmware and that would fix the problem. It just made it worse in that now even connecting via the router fails, and furthermore I can't access the satellites' web pages which I had used to upgrade them and would use to downgrade them. The actual Orbi router web interface is working and shows all three Satellites connected and servicing devices.

[FURRYe38]

Has a factory reset and setup from scratch been performed since upgrading to v30? I would do this for the RBR. Leave off the RBS for now. Get the RBR setup and re-configrued. Test wtih jsut the RBR with a wired PC and some wireless devices. Check for internet and secure web site access here. IF you can get to this point, then start with 1 RBS and factory reset it. Press the sync button on the back of the RBR and RBS and let it sync. Then check internet connection with a wireless device connected to the RBS. 

What is the Mfr and model# of the ISP modem the NG router is connected too?

[ar9]

The Orbi is in router mode and is wired to a Verizon Actiontec MI424WR-GEN3I running firmware v40.21.24.

The Orbi and all three Satellites are sitting together on my dining room table all powered on.

The Orbi is wired to the wall (house is wired cat-5).

[Retired_Member]

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@ar9 wrote:

........... but eventually "everyone" of them told me to upgrade to the latest firmware and that would fix the problem. It just made it worse in that now even connecting via the router fails, and furthermore I can't access the satellites' web pages which I had used to upgrade them and would use to downgrade them. The actual Orbi router web interface is working and shows all three Satellites connected and servicing devices.

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i don't know why the default recommendation is to update the FW.  Normally this should work IF it can be confirmed that the next step up FW is proved to be near error free, and I'm not sure that will ever happen after listening to the way some folks run there networks.  It all seems to be about providing WIFI to your entire house (good) and your neighbos (what??) at the fastest and faster speed.  Read the box the Orbi came in and see how much square feet it covers.. 

 In this community all one needs to do is scan/search and read the posts to realize there is a problem with any particular FW.  The only safe bet is once you get back to ground zero (no problems) leave the FW updates alone.  When NG has a FW with what they call 'major revisions' they will push it to all.  IF that breaks your network, well at lease you can blame them and not yourself.

[FURRYe38]

Take out the RBSs and turn them off for now. Just work with the RBR. 

Having them all at the dining room table on ON is problaby causing the wifi signals to become over loaded sitting too close. 30 feet is recommended in between them to begin with depending upon building materials when wirelessly connected.

[FURRYe38]

Your ISP modem also has a built in router:

https://www.actiontec.com/products/wifi-routers-gateways/fiber/bhr-rev-i/

Has this modem been bridged or is it working in Router mode? 

This would be a double NAT condition which isn't recommended. https://kb.netgear.com/30186/What-is-Double-NAT
Couple of options,
1. Configure the modem for transparent bridge or modem only mode. Then use the Orbi router in router mode. You'll need to contact the ISP for help and information in regards to the modem being bridged correctly.
2. If you can't bridge the modem, disable ALL wifi radios on the modem, configure the modems DMZ/ExposedHost or IP Pass-Through for the IP address the Orbi router gets from the modem. Then you can use the Orbi router in Router mode.
3. Or disable all wifi radios on the modem and connect the Orbi router to the modem, configure AP mode on the Orbi router. https://kb.netgear.com/31218/How-do-I-configure-my-Orbi-router-to-act-as-an-access-point and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7LOcJ8GdDo&app=desktop

I would recommend one of the options to help elliviate the connection problems between the ISP modem and Orbi RBR. 

Then once the RBR is setup and working well, connect one RBS and get it synced. Once synced, Place the RBS at its remote location. Continue with the rest of the RBSs.

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@ar9 wrote:

I have an Orbi router with three satellites all connected with Backhaul status "Good". Our experience has been touch and go with the Orbi with Satellites and device connections dropping intermittently. When it works its great, but working half or even much of the time is not enough. Everyone told me to upgrade the firmware so I finally upgraded each device to the latest firmware V2.3.5.30 (that was a nighmare by itself) and now our internet access has become a disaster. Internet sites are unreachable because https requests receive errors on the www.routerlogin.net certificate - suddenly I get notification that the the certificate expired on Aug 2, 2019 (Really???). I can log on to the Orbi router, but when I try to connect to any of the Satellites via IP Address in the web browser I get the standard "This device is blocked by Access Control in the router" as though I'm blocked in access control. That was the only way I was able to upgrade the Satellites one by one, and now I can't control them at all. Yes I moved them right up next to the router and still no luck. I am so frustrated and disappointed with this garbage. I was willing to spend money to get good coverage, and then more money for an additional satellite for further coverage. Now I have absolutely NOTHING!!!!! Does NETGEAR monitor these forums? My wife is an executive at COSTCO and she is LIVID!!! 

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[Retired_Member]

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

Your ISP modem also has a built in router:

This is a reoccuring problem.  Since we're dealing with different levels of users, somehow NG needs to figure out how to work/display the setup better.  Is there a warning or attention to the type of modem to be used.?  Plain language please.

Advice,............ know your current system and then research the Orbi or any other network device you plan to introduce.

[ar9]

By the way - thank you to all who posted suggestions. 

I definitely know the drill - I did this when the problem first started before the firmware upgrade but I only got to the point where the Orbi itself was working - I reset each Satellite and added it but the Orbi only eventually accepted two of the three, and devices connected to those two Satellites had the certificate problem.

I will do a reset on the Orbi and try getting it to function alone and then try resetting and adding Satellites one at a time and see how far it gets.

Here's some more info that may be revealing - to me it was just frustrating. Well before the upgrade when devices started failing to connect to the internet, I noticed that when I was on a device connected via a Satellite I would ping an external url it would resolve to the ip address of the satellite itself rather than the external ip address (devices connected directly to the Orbi could ping out just fine). I found this really strange because for the longest time I had no problem with pinging from devices connected via Satellites. I remember enabling the particular Satellite's telnet via the debug web page (it was working at that time) and telnetting in and when I randomly restarted some networking services the pinging started behaving but only for a short while and then the pinging bizaarness returned. 

[ar9]

My ISP router (Actiontec) is at 10.10.0.1 handing out addresses from 10.10.0.2 through 10.10.0.100 and my Orbi gets static 10.10.0.200.

The Orbi is at 192.168.1.1 handing out it's own addresses including the three Satellites at 192.168.1.5, 192.168.1.6, and 192.168.1.7.

This has worked perfectly for many months. What is wrong with using Orbi for wifi on a different segment and getting WAN from my ISP router?

[Retired_Member]

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@ar9 wrote:

By the way - thank you to all who posted suggestions. 

I definitely know the drill - I did this when the problem first started before the firmware upgrade but I only got to the point where the Orbi itself was working - I reset each Satellite and added it but the Orbi only eventually accepted two of the three, and devices connected to those two Satellites had the certificate problem.

I will do a reset on the Orbi and try getting it to function alone and then try resetting and adding Satellites one at a time and see how far it gets.

Here's some more info that may be revealing - to me it was just frustrating. Well before the upgrade when devices started failing to connect to the internet, I noticed that when I was on a device connected via a Satellite I would ping an external url it would resolve to the ip address of the satellite itself rather than the external ip address (devices connected directly to the Orbi could ping out just fine). I found this really strange because for the longest time I had no problem with pinging from devices connected via Satellites. I remember enabling the particular Satellite's telnet via the debug web page (it was working at that time) and telnetting in and when I randomly restarted some networking services the pinging started behaving but only for a short while and then the pinging bizaarness returned. 

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Good luck.  Sounds like you may be on the road to recovery.  I find your discussion and efforts concerning pinging and telent a bit interesting from the standpoint that you didn't note you had a modem/router combo (??).  

Once things settle down I would get the Orbi and Sats at the proper distance as Furry mentioned and away you go.

[Retired_Member]

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@ar9 wrote:

My ISP router (Actiontec) is at 10.10.0.1 handing out addresses from 10.10.0.2 through 10.10.0.100 and my Orbi gets static 10.10.0.200.

The Orbi is at 192.168.1.1 handing out it's own addresses including the three Satellites at 192.168.1.5, 192.168.1.6, and 192.168.1.7.

This has worked perfectly for many months. What is wrong with using Orbi for wifi on a different segment and getting WAN from my ISP router?

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Nothing as long as the wifi is turned off at the ISP modem let the Orbi handle the rest.  If it were me, I would get rid of the ISP router (Actiontec) altogether and let the Orbi run the entire network.  Simple in this case may be better.  Ask yourself 'what is the ISP router (Actiontec) doing for youy that the Orbi can't do just as well alone?

[FURRYe38]

Nothing wrong persae, however you are in a double NAT condition. This can cause problems.

You can keep both routers in there current configuration, however I recommend using the modems DMZ for the Orbi RBR as suggested in option #2. 

https://kb.netgear.com/30186/What-is-Double-NAT
https://kb.netgear.com/30187/How-to-fix-issues-with-Double-NAT

This will help with the double NAT issue and odd connection issues. 

Can't get any simpler this this. 

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@ar9 wrote:

My ISP router (Actiontec) is at 10.10.0.1 handing out addresses from 10.10.0.2 through 10.10.0.100 and my Orbi gets static 10.10.0.200.

The Orbi is at 192.168.1.1 handing out it's own addresses including the three Satellites at 192.168.1.5, 192.168.1.6, and 192.168.1.7.

This has worked perfectly for many months. What is wrong with using Orbi for wifi on a different segment and getting WAN from my ISP router?

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[Retired_Member]

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

Can't get any simpler this this. 

Sure they could....get rid of the ISP router (Actiontec) if they are allowed.

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[ekhalil]

Issues that you’re getting are for sure caused by double NAT in your network.
That it worked before doesn’t mean that it’s correct.
If you want to keep the ISP modem/router as your main router then please set Orbi in AP mode.

[ar9]

I've never had issues with multiple (modern) routers and double/triple/etc NATing as long as address ranges are managed properly. That's what routing tables are for. traceroute works just fine. Last I checked, the internet itself had more than a few tethered routers. Is it "incorrect"? The Actiontec is exclusively for ethernet and has excellent quality of service control (much superior to the Orbi) while I purchased the Orbi originally because of backhaul/Satellites yet it turns out to have better wifi access control than the Actiontec. All of which was working beautifully for months until devices began getting https errors due to the www.routerlogin.net certificate expiration on August 2, 2019 - coincidentally the time things started going sideways and I was told to update firmware. Is that not relevant? Having the Orbi suddenly produce an expired netgear certificate bothers me much more than the possibility that modern routers can't manage their routing tables properly. I've had Circle installed from the beginning but I am also getting the sense that it's not fully baked and might now be interfering with the latest firmware. I'm sure this is all on Netgear and poor integration testing on firmware releases. This conversation has given me sufficient insentive to figure out the underlying cause(s) and come back to this forum with a detailed explanation which I'm sure will have absolutely nothing to do with the number of routers, switches, bridges, firewalls, repeaters or load balancers on the line. No hubris - just reason.

[ar9]

As I said, I am appreciative of all the responses and if it does turn out to be a double NAT issue I will unhappily be sure to report it.

[ekhalil]

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@ar9 wrote:

I've never had issues with multiple (modern) routers and double/triple/etc NATing as long as address ranges are managed properly. .......

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Double NAT issues has nothing to do with address range management or routing. These issues happen because you have a single public IP address and this address will need to go through multiple network address translations. Double NAT usually does not prevent your devices access to the internet but may cause problems with playing online games, opening a specific service port, connecting to a VPN tunnel, or visiting secure sites with SSL

[FURRYe38]

Double NAT can be fixed by trying one of the 3 suggestions as metioned in my prior post. This has nothing to do with fixing any FW. This is a Level 2 communcation configuration condition when you have two routers online such as yours. I some cases, it works with out any configuration. The suggestions are there to help ensure you get into a single NAT condition which IS preferred and for best operation and connectivity with internet sources. Some ISP support having a modem with out a built in router unit. For those ISP that don't, there are the 3 options as mentioned. Just want you to get the best configuration for what you have running. The ORbi system can work as you have it configured. Since you have it mostly working with the ISP modem/router, I would setup the DMZ on the modem for the RBR and this will help elliviate the double NAT issue and you can continue working with the Orbi as you have it configured. 

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@ar9 wrote:

As I said, I am appreciative of all the responses and if it does turn out to be a double NAT issue I will unhappily be sure to report it.

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[RipInGlendale]

I see a common theme here, in other posts, and Googling. My symptoms are similar. Satellite repeatedly disconnects and reconnects. It didn't before the v2.3.5.30 upgrade. I didn't upgrade the satellite first, unfortunately, and didn't see anything in the manual suggesting to do so. If that's "the issue," I'm not sure I know how to rectify it. I upgraded because I received an email from Netgear saying this was an important security update and I'm concerned about security, but why I or anyone else updates firmware is irrelevant, so please stop bringing that up. It doesn't help even a little. This is an expensive mesh network solution for home use and a firmware upgrade should work much better.

[FURRYe38]

The any satellite needs to be updated first. NG should be letting users know more about this I agree. Something that should be up front and fore most about. You need to update the RBS before updating the RBR. Keep this in mind for future updates. 

What you need to do is factory reset the RBS. Wire connect a PC to the 1st satellite. Already have the most current RBS FW version files downloaded on to this PC. 

When the satellite are reset, wait about 5 minute. The PC will get a IP address from the satellite. I believe the IP address of the satellite will be 192.168.1.250. You can look at the network status connection properties to see what the GATEWAY IP address is to verify. Use this IP address in a web browser to log in to the satellites web page. Use the satellites web page FW update feature to select the FW update file that was unpacked from the .zip file. Then factory reset and then re-sync the satellite to the RBR. You should be good here. 

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@RipInGlendale wrote:

I see a common theme here, in other posts, and Googling. My symptoms are similar. Satellite repeatedly disconnects and reconnects. It didn't before the v2.3.5.30 upgrade. I didn't upgrade the satellite first, unfortunately, and didn't see anything in the manual suggesting to do so. If that's "the issue," I'm not sure I know how to rectify it. I upgraded because I received an email from Netgear saying this was an important security update and I'm concerned about security, but why I or anyone else updates firmware is irrelevant, so please stop bringing that up. It doesn't help even a little. This is an expensive mesh network solution for home use and a firmware upgrade should work much better.

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[RipInGlendale]

Wasn’t able to connect strictly to the satellite via Ethernet...maybe because I had setup as AP? But resetting both router and satellite, setting everything back up in router mode and then switching back to AP seems to be working so far. Connected my laptop to the satellite via Ethernet again and ran Net Uptime Monitor for three hours and it logged no failures. Still a pretty unsettling experience.