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Last night I added two Netgear GS108Ev3 switches to my network, sitting behind a Netgear Orbi RBR50. I have it configured and working perfectly with the exception of one (extremely problematic) anomaly. On the first switch, upon clicking 'Update Firmware', it said it was dropping itself in to a 'loader mode'. After beginning the firmware update, I lost connectivity to the rest of my network. I plugged directly in to my Orbi router, it popped up citing, "To avoid conflict with your Internet Service Provider, your router's IP address has been update to 10.0.0.1."
...which makes absolutely no sense for so many reasons...
I performed the same firmware update on the second switch and was able to repeat the same beahavior. These are Layer 2 switches with no L3 routing capability. Their IP addresses do not conflict with any other IPs on my network. Even the default IP the switches ship with (192.168.0.239) is on a completely different subnet than than my home network. I can't figure out what about a firmware update would be triggering my Orbi router to think there's a subnet conflict (and subsequently reconfigure itself completely). I've already posted a discussion on the Orbi forum but that's been a dead-end as the answer I keep getting is "use unmanaged switches" (which isn't very helpful, assuming every use case is the same.)
Can anyone think of anything that happens during a firmware update that might be triggering this behavior so I could at least understand the root cause?
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TOPOLOGY
Orbi Router: 192.168.1.1/24
Switch 1: 192.168.1.2/24
Switch 2: 192.168.1.3/24
Port 1: A VLAN trunk Tagged passing VLAN 1, 10, and 20.
Port 2: VLAN 10 Untagged
Port 3-8: VLAN 20 Untagged
A single cable runs between the two switches over Port 1 to pass all VLANs.
For anyone else who stumbles upon this thread -- reposting my solution (from the Orbi side) here as well.
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@CrimpOn : Did some final testing and now confident in the conclusion.
What triggers the "reconfiguration" behavior appears to be whenever Orbi detects any other network device on the other side of it's Internet (WAN) port sharing the same subnet. It doesn't matter if there's an actual conflict or not -- simply it's existence. From a consumer support standpoint this is actually a pretty clever mechanism (though I wish they'd give us the option to disable it for various use cases).
In my *personal* case - the issue was that I'd put the ports in their respective VLANs (10 for WAN, 20 for LAN) but left VLAN 1 in place. Regular (untagged) traffic was working just fine. My guess is that during a firmware update on those GS108Ev3 switches, it was sending out a broadcast across all configured VLANs, Orbi was seeing that broadcast on the Internet port, hence reconfiguration is triggered. I removed VLAN 1 from all ports and haven't been able to replicate the problem since.
As for your question about the use case for the two switches? This as a method to extend out multiple networks over a single cable. My current configuration looks like this:
VLAN 10 = WAN Traffic VLAN 20 = LAN Traffic
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BASEMENT
GS108Ev3 - Port 1: VLAN 10 Tagged, VLAN 20 Tagged
GS108Ev3 - Port 2: VLAN 10 Untagged GS108Ev3 - Port 3-8: VLAN 20 Untagged
AT&T Gateway LAN plugged in to GS108Ev3 Port 2
UPSTAIRS OFFICE
GS108Ev3 - Port 1: VLAN 10 Tagged, VLAN 20 Tagged
GS108Ev3 - Port 2: VLAN 10 Untagged GS108Ev3 - Port 3-8: VLAN 20 Untagged Orbi Internet Port plugged in to GS108Ev3 Port 2 -----
Port 1 is the single physical cable running between the two switches. It will pass all traffic for either VLAN (LAN or WAN side) without either seeing one another as the traffic is "encapsulated" (isolated from each other). Port 2 on each side is where you plug in the WAN side of things. In the basement I have several runs from around the house plugged in to ports 3-8 (LAN). In the Office, I also have a bunch of devices plugged in to 3-8 (LAN). Two separate floors but they'll all end up in the LAN side.
The notion that someone shouldn't be using managed switches in a network topology is a silly one, assuming the configuration is correct. In my particular case (and the fix to the original problem I posted about) turns out to simply be "don't let Orbi's Internet port see any traffic with a subnet that matches it's LAN side". Simple enough, makes a lot of sense. Once I understood what was triggering the reconfigurating, finding the root cause was simple.
(Extra thanks to @schumaku for the sentence that led to the conclusion -- "Somehow the Orbi system does see any 192.168.x.x network on it's WAN/Internet port.")
Simple: Somehow the Orbi system does see any 192.168.x.x network on it's WAN/Internet port. This is what makes Orbi or any newer Netgear router to play smart-a** triggering a change of the LAN subnet to the alternate default of 10.0.0.0/24
Leaving away this disliked feature - there are several details missing in your post. First, you have configured some VLANs and VLAN port configs. Completely unclear what the purpose is, and how the ports are really configued, and what you intend to do with these VLANs.
Matter of fact, the consumer Orbi (as well as the initial Orbi Pro) have no support for VLANs, the backhaul on an Orbi system is run plain flat and untagged.
Before, ensure you update the boot loader of these two switches - ideally while connected direct to a computer, ideally using the default 192.168.0.239/24 address and a computer interface from that same subnet, like 192.168.0.123, and update one by one.
Once done, show us a plan/design what you intend to do with these VLANs, how you intend to configure the ports, and what is connected on each port. Oh and don't forget what I showed above ref. Orni and VLANs.
I think you are correct that neither the GW nor the Orbi have any concept of VLAN's (apart from the IP television capability). I thought the concept pretty clever:
Switch 1 Switch 2 Port 1-------Port 1 GW-----Port 2 VLAN1 Port 2-----Orbi WAN ---Port 3 VLAN2 Port 3-----Orbi LAN ---Port 4 VLAN2 Port 4--- ---Port 5 VLAN2 Port 5--- ---Port 6 VLAN2 Port 6--- ---Port 7 VLAN2 Port 7--- ---Port 8 VLAN2 Port 8---
Only the two switches have any knowledge of VLANs. Because Port 1 carries all VLANS (typical of a VLAN architecture) once the switch MAC address tables learn what is connected to each port, packets that need to cross between switches will do so. There are 6 Ports on Switch 1 and 5 ports on Switch 2 that can be connected to anything and will be connected to the Orbi LAN port. When we introduced IP phones (a looong time ago), the phones themselves had no concept of VLAN. The switch they were connected to would tag the packets, which would merrily go from switch to switch until they hit the data center, where they would appear untagged at the phone system.
GW and Orbi have no idea VLAN is taking place.
p.s. Every time people point out how little I understand about networking, I learn from the humiliation.
Between @schumaku's very first sentence and @CrimpOn's response - I *MAY* actually have an idea of what's going on here.
@CrimpOn's topology is basically exactly what I've configured to connect two separate floors with Port 1 carrying both of my VLANs (10 for WAN, 20 for LAN) between the two switches. @schumaku had mentioned this behavior might be caused by somehow the WAN port seeing the 192.168.x.x network. "So how would that be possible?" Looked at my Netgear switch configs again and noticed that while yes, all ports were tagged (or untagged) properly for 10 or 20 -- VLAN 1 was still enabled on all ports by default. Despite none having it assigned for PVID, I believe it was still likely broadcasting itself to all ports (including Orbi WAN over VLAN 1) during the firmware upgrade. I'd assumed this wasn't the case because I'd previously confirmed the two networks couldn't talk to one another before ever putting them in to production (basic ping tests) -- but that's the most probable cause. I've since removed VLAN 1 from membership over ANY port.
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VLAN 1: None
VLAN 10: Port 1 (Tagged), 2 (Untagged)
VLAN 20: Port 1 (Tagged), 3-8 (Untagged)
----
Port 1 is carrying my traffic between floors.
Port 2 is plugged in to the ATT GW on one side and the Orbi WAN on the other.
Port 3-8 are various internet network devices around the house.
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Really hoping the complete removal of VLAN 1 would resolve this issue, but barring a new firmware update, I don't have the best test. Humorously enough, I really should probably stop being stubborn about it and do as @schumaku suggested and not even leave them on the same subnet. It's convenient having them on my LAN as they're accessible for management if I ever needed them (I'm used to having dedicated 'management networks' at work) -- but not exactly a requirement considering the infrequency these switches will see firmware updates. That'd negate even the possibility of there being an issue.
For anyone else who stumbles upon this thread -- reposting my solution (from the Orbi side) here as well.
----
@CrimpOn : Did some final testing and now confident in the conclusion.
What triggers the "reconfiguration" behavior appears to be whenever Orbi detects any other network device on the other side of it's Internet (WAN) port sharing the same subnet. It doesn't matter if there's an actual conflict or not -- simply it's existence. From a consumer support standpoint this is actually a pretty clever mechanism (though I wish they'd give us the option to disable it for various use cases).
In my *personal* case - the issue was that I'd put the ports in their respective VLANs (10 for WAN, 20 for LAN) but left VLAN 1 in place. Regular (untagged) traffic was working just fine. My guess is that during a firmware update on those GS108Ev3 switches, it was sending out a broadcast across all configured VLANs, Orbi was seeing that broadcast on the Internet port, hence reconfiguration is triggered. I removed VLAN 1 from all ports and haven't been able to replicate the problem since.
As for your question about the use case for the two switches? This as a method to extend out multiple networks over a single cable. My current configuration looks like this:
VLAN 10 = WAN Traffic VLAN 20 = LAN Traffic
-----
BASEMENT
GS108Ev3 - Port 1: VLAN 10 Tagged, VLAN 20 Tagged
GS108Ev3 - Port 2: VLAN 10 Untagged GS108Ev3 - Port 3-8: VLAN 20 Untagged
AT&T Gateway LAN plugged in to GS108Ev3 Port 2
UPSTAIRS OFFICE
GS108Ev3 - Port 1: VLAN 10 Tagged, VLAN 20 Tagged
GS108Ev3 - Port 2: VLAN 10 Untagged GS108Ev3 - Port 3-8: VLAN 20 Untagged Orbi Internet Port plugged in to GS108Ev3 Port 2 -----
Port 1 is the single physical cable running between the two switches. It will pass all traffic for either VLAN (LAN or WAN side) without either seeing one another as the traffic is "encapsulated" (isolated from each other). Port 2 on each side is where you plug in the WAN side of things. In the basement I have several runs from around the house plugged in to ports 3-8 (LAN). In the Office, I also have a bunch of devices plugged in to 3-8 (LAN). Two separate floors but they'll all end up in the LAN side.
The notion that someone shouldn't be using managed switches in a network topology is a silly one, assuming the configuration is correct. In my particular case (and the fix to the original problem I posted about) turns out to simply be "don't let Orbi's Internet port see any traffic with a subnet that matches it's LAN side". Simple enough, makes a lot of sense. Once I understood what was triggering the reconfigurating, finding the root cause was simple.
(Extra thanks to @schumaku for the sentence that led to the conclusion -- "Somehow the Orbi system does see any 192.168.x.x network on it's WAN/Internet port.")
