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RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
OS: 6.4.1
Hello,
I spent a lot of hours till now to bring it together without success. The netgear RAID calculator says 8.16 TB in X-Raid and Flex-Raid 5 with my combination of HDDs but I'm not able to set it up. As I want to use encryption I started with a Flex-Raid 5 with 4 HDDs resulting in a volume < 6 TB (4x 2 TB as Raid 5) and I'm not able to use the capacity left.
What is the right way to set the system with full capacity of 8.16 TB up (maybe with multiple volumes)? I have no idea anymore what to try and to reset the system and let X-Raid decide will not work because you can't setup X-Raid with encryption.
I think to use full space we need something like:
Raid 5 over all 4 HDDs with 2TB = 6 TB useable capacity
Raid 5 over 3 HDDs with 1TB = 2 TB useable capacity
Raid 1 over 2 HDDs with 1TB = 1 TB useable capacity
But HOW? See no way to add a volume because all HDDs are "blue" also they are not used with full capacity!
Here my current situation started with all devices installed from beginning (it's not a expanded HDD configuration).
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
That's excactly what I expected how it's working when buying the RN204. But this device is now on it's way back to Amazon and my new QNAP 431+ is initializing the disks right now!
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
With Flex-RAID RAID-5 the capacity of the smallest disk is used. If you replace the 2TB disk with a 4TB disk the volume should expand as the smallest disk would now be 3TB. Though I'm not sure whether expansion is possible with encrypted volumes.
RAID-5 protects against a single disk failure, however there are problems it doesn't protect against (e.g. multiple disk failures, fire, flood, theft etc.) so if the NAS is used for primary storage you do need to backup your data.
I was not able to find in documentation that encryption impacts the way X-Raid / Flex-Raid is working. So Netgear please let me know if encryption is the problem, the calculator is wrong or what I have to do to get it running with 8 TB!
That calculator is showing the wrong value for Flex-RAID for your selection of disks. The traditional RAID-5 is showing the correct volume capacity.
Yes.
Also if you were to start over with xraid you would get a 9 TB volume (~8.18 TiB). But to do that you'd need to back all your data, do a factory reset, rebuild the NAS, and then restore the data from the backup.
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
> Also if you were to start over with xraid you would get a 9 TB volume (~8.18 TiB). But to do that you'd need to back all your data, do a factory reset, rebuild the NAS, and then restore the data from the backup.
But this means there is no way to get an encrypted 9 TB volume because it's not supported by X-Raid?
But this means there is no way to get an encrypted 9 TB volume because it's not supported by X-Raid?
Right?
Sorry, I'd forgotten the encrypted part. XRAID supports encrypted volumes, but you are correct in pointing out that disks would have to be the same size to use all the space.
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
I maintain that calc.
With 4,4,3,2 t drives (t meaning TB, 1000 based; tib meaning TiB, 1024 based- which is what we show in gui). you should have 9t worth of raid space. with all of the overhead that should be about ~8.1tb if useable capacity.
If your getting ~5.44 tib that sounds like its not fully expanding to the bigger drives. its just making a raid out of your 2tb portions (the same as having 2,2,2,2 t drives, or the same as having 4,4,3,2t drives in a traditional raid 5 where the extra size is ignored)
Flexraid should NOT ignore the extra size, it should intelligently (just like xraid) use up the extra space from the bigger drives
So I think expansion is not happening like it should, could you please provide us the logs. Flexraid should expand up to the higher drive sizes just like Xraid does. Flexraid just doesnt auto change raids, and flexraid also shouldnt horizonatally autoexpand, whereas xraid auto changes raid type (raid1,raid5,raid6 with more drives) and xraid autoexpands horizontally.
So I think expansion is not happening like it should, could you please provide us the logs. Flexraid should expand up to the higher drive sizes just like Xraid does.
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
I apologize, I guess I had a misunderstanding on that part of FlexRAID. It doesn't use the extra size of bigger drives. FlexRAID is like Traditional Raid in that manner in my calculator, it uses the smallest drive to base the volume. I will update the rdconfigurator calculator to match that. In the meantime if you want to get the correct FlexRAID size use Traditional Raid in the calculator.
What the original poster is looking for is XRAID.
So what are we doing to make this better? I have submitted a feature request to engineering to add features to FlexRAID to give it more features.
Here is my list To add the following features. Currently the OS6 FlexRAID features 1,2,3 from list below. I feature requestsed 4 & 5.
NOTE: im not listing encrypted volumes (im not sure if they will be an obstacle for it)
1. "Add parity": adds another drive but converts from R5 to R6 (this adds a drive and converts raid from R5 to R6)
2. "Expand": this makes a new raid and does brtfs device add, so you can make things like R50 and R60.. We should rename this to “Expand Filesystem”. This is similar to adding a vdev with readydata/zfs.
3. "Create new volume": creates new btrfs volume (not really and expansion option), it can be encrypted
4. We should add a fourth option: "Raid Expand": this will just do a mdadm -add making the current raid bigger.
5. We should add ability to use the higher partition sizes (just like XRAID can), so that maximum volume space is utilized (just like in XRAID) when varying drive sizes are used. Currently FlexRAID will use the smallest drive as the basis for raid creation if there are varying drive sizes.
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
That's excactly what I expected how it's working when buying the RN204. But this device is now on it's way back to Amazon and my new QNAP 431+ is initializing the disks right now!
not a good decision going back to ext4 environment
should stay with btrfs
I guess it depends on how critical disk encryption (with max capacity) was.
Personally I see little value in drive encryption in the NAS, for me at least the USB key would end up staying in the NAS which defeats any security benefit.
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
You are absolutly right and BTRFS ist definitly the right way.
BUT: With my few days working with my ReadyNAS and with Netgear Support all the time I had the feeling no one really knows whats going on. And from my personal feeling the risk of loosing data is much more higher when not knowing what happens as running in a bit rot thing ...
ReadyNas is a cool product but I'm missing an expert mode of the UI where you can decide what will happen instead of hoping X-Raid / Flex-Raid will do what you expect!
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
We do know what's going on with this.
With my personal NAS I don't use encryption, but I did remember vaguely that one of our engineers had written about the expansion limitations of encrypted volumes and StephenB found that post.
I've checked with engineering and heard from them that the reason why we don't support vertical expansion with mixed disk capacities when using an encrypted volume the same way as we do for non-encrypted volumes is that we would need a separate encryption key for each RAID layer. By using the capacity of the smallest disk we can stick to the one RAID layer and one encryption key.
Managing different encryption keys for different RAID layers would be quite complicated, introduce new risks to your data and the performance would be worse than with a single layer encrypted volume as well. Encryption already has a significant performance hit on some models and using multiple encryption keys with one volume this would be more pronounced. We feel that few users would find the performance using a multi layer volume with multiple encryption keys acceptable.
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
Sorry, but with this post you confirm that you are not knowing what you are doing.
I had 2 tickets and 2 phone calls with German Support and all the time they confirmed that encryption has no impact of the way X-Raid / Flex-Raid is working!
So maybe the Germans need a training on encryption? 🙂
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
Stephen B, adding those features to Flex-RAID will not make Flex-RAID be another X-RAID. X-RAID will still have the automatic expansion feature and automatically select RAID1,5,6 depending on number of drives. Im just submittinga feature request to add more expansion options to Flex-RAID. Im not submitting the auto reshaping of XRAID from raid1 to 5 to 6 to be a feature of Flex-RAID (that will remain unique to X-RAID). So Flex-RAID will not be limited to RAID1,5,6. FlexRAID will always have the option of RAID0,1,5,6,10,50,60. XRAID only allows 1,5,6. Where as with Flex-RAID, you could select your own raid (and it will remain at that raid level) and then you would be able to expand it using the available expansion options when you add a drive[s]. X-RAID doesnt allow for RAID10,50,60, Flex-RAID does & will (if my feature requests go thru) allow for that.
So currently:
-XRAID: jbod/raid 0,1,5,6; allows varying drive sizes (Expand vertically); expands horizontally (expand raid volume by adding drive to raid). automatically selects raid level based on number of drives.
-FLEXRAID: jbod/raid0,1,5,6,10,50,60; allows changing from raid5 to raid6; if you use varying drive sizes (some space will not be used); expand btrfs volume; allows encryption;manual select of raid level; ability to be creative with how you make your raid
My feature requests would do this: (bolded the extra feature)
-XRAID: jbod/raid 0,1,5,6; allows varying drive sizes (Expand vertically); expands horizontally (expand raid volume by adding drive to raid). automatically selects raid level based on number of drives.
-FLEXRAID: jbod/raid 0,1,5,6,10,50,60; allows changing from raid5 to raid6;use up all space of varying drive sizes; expand btrfs volume (this allows for raid50,60); expand raid volume by adding drive to raid (horizonal expansion); allows encryption; manual select of raid level; ability to be creative with how you make your raid
Having an encryption key on a USB is very useful for the following use case: leaving your data ; you can plug in your USB key & power on your NAS.
Having an encryption key on a USB is very useful for the following use case: leaving your data ; you can plug in your USB key & power on your NAS.
If someone steals the NAS with the USB, then they can do an OS reinstall, and copy all my data over the network. So if I leave the key in or near the NAS, then the encryption has no security value. If I hide the key elsewhere, then I need to go physically to the NAS and insert the key before I boot it. If I lose track of that key, then I am in big trouble.
So I personally find the NAS disk encryption to be both inconvenient for me and also to have little security value. If disk encryption disabled the password reset done by the OS reinstall and was stored securely in the flash (similarly to TPM), then it would have value. Though even there, it requires the user to avoid using scheduled USB backup jobs (and to ensure that the backup button on the NAS doesn't copy data to a locally connected USB).
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
I have already mentioned why multi-layer encrypted volumes are not possible. A separate key would be required for each RAID layer which would have a bigger impact on performance and not be practical. It would also put your data at greater risk.
You can either have multi-layer volumes or use encryption, not both.
You can connect the USB key after the NAS is booted and after a period of time the volume should mount.
You should of course make a backup of the encryption key somewhere in case anything happens to the USB key it is primarily stored on.
Re: RN204: 2x 4TB and 1x 2TB and 1x 3 TB - Not able to use full capacity
Well I do see too many operational headaches with the key, and if you yield to the temptation to just leave it inserted then you lose any benefit. TPM is also a pain, but it is better thought out.
I have already mentioned why multi-layer encrypted volumes are not possible. A separate key would be required for each RAID layer which would have a bigger impact on performance and not be practical. It would also put your data at greater risk.
I find this explanation confusing. It seems to me that all RAID layers could be configured to use the same key value. Though I do see that multilayer could hurt performance.
