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Re: ssd tiering

craer87
Aspirant

ssd tiering

ok so looking in to if i can add some speed to me NAS

i have 4) 10tb drives

thinking about putting some ssd's in the last 2 bays still leaving me room to grow

i have some 500g WD blue ssd both new unused and matching for the job

but what gains can i look forin dooing this.

im told once i do it i cant goback.  and what MetaData . what exactly  is that on the nas

and my other question is how does the Nas store the data?

exp: does it take a high use file off the hdds and "MOVE" it to the ssd or is it a copy

is any one having any realy pros or cons doing this ?

 

Thanks..

Model: RN528X|ReadyNAS 528X - Premium Performance Business Data Storage 8-Bay
Message 1 of 14

Accepted Solutions
StephenB
Guru

Re: ssd tiering

There is is an explanation on page 10 here: https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/READYNAS-100/ReadyNAS_FlexRAID_Optimization_Guide.pdf

 

Also here: https://kb.netgear.com/000049513/ReadyNAS-OS-6-9-Metadata-Tiering

 

One ambiguity is the statement "The number of SSDs for the SSD tier should be equal to the number of drives in the RAID group."  I don't know if that is a suggestion or a requirement. 

 

Note that per the guide, you need to create an SSD tier for each RAID group in the volume.

 


@craer87 wrote:

 

exp: does it take a high use file off the hdds and "MOVE" it to the ssd or is it a copy

 


The SSD tier is not a cache.  Things stored on it are not duplicated on the mechanical disks.

 

With 6.9.x firmware the tier only includes metadata, it does not include the actual files.  Note that in 6.10.x beta Netgear is expanding the use of the tier to include some files (data).  https://community.netgear.com/t5/ReadyNAS-Beta-Release/ReadyNASOS-6-10-0-T185-Beta-2/m-p/1651396#M10...

 


@craer87 wrote:

 

and what MetaData . what exactly  is that on the nas

 


"Metadata" is the on-disk structures used by the BTRFS file system to describe the files - among other things it includes the filenames, the organization of the files into folders and BTRFS subvolumes, file owners and permissions, and the location of the data in the files on the disks. The equivalent information in the ext filesystem is in "inodes".

 

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Message 2 of 14

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StephenB
Guru

Re: ssd tiering

There is is an explanation on page 10 here: https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/READYNAS-100/ReadyNAS_FlexRAID_Optimization_Guide.pdf

 

Also here: https://kb.netgear.com/000049513/ReadyNAS-OS-6-9-Metadata-Tiering

 

One ambiguity is the statement "The number of SSDs for the SSD tier should be equal to the number of drives in the RAID group."  I don't know if that is a suggestion or a requirement. 

 

Note that per the guide, you need to create an SSD tier for each RAID group in the volume.

 


@craer87 wrote:

 

exp: does it take a high use file off the hdds and "MOVE" it to the ssd or is it a copy

 


The SSD tier is not a cache.  Things stored on it are not duplicated on the mechanical disks.

 

With 6.9.x firmware the tier only includes metadata, it does not include the actual files.  Note that in 6.10.x beta Netgear is expanding the use of the tier to include some files (data).  https://community.netgear.com/t5/ReadyNAS-Beta-Release/ReadyNASOS-6-10-0-T185-Beta-2/m-p/1651396#M10...

 


@craer87 wrote:

 

and what MetaData . what exactly  is that on the nas

 


"Metadata" is the on-disk structures used by the BTRFS file system to describe the files - among other things it includes the filenames, the organization of the files into folders and BTRFS subvolumes, file owners and permissions, and the location of the data in the files on the disks. The equivalent information in the ext filesystem is in "inodes".

 

Message 2 of 14
craer87
Aspirant

Re: ssd tiering

ok i think i got want i was asking.

i stumbled across where to check how much i need lastnight its under 30gig

so 20 500gig drives are wayyyy over kill and i dont see to much if any real benefit giveing the librarian/card catalog of the file system faster drives at this point in time.. unless im missing something. i pull 100% full gig speeds over the network atm. so not sure where it could help

 

and just want to say thanks for the info sofar

 

Message 3 of 14
StephenB
Guru

Re: ssd tiering


@craer87 wrote:

 

so 20 500gig drives are wayyyy over kill

 


I agree, a RAID-1 tier should be sufficient with single-redundancy, and RAID-6 for dual redundancy.  I suspect the "should" in the flexraid guide is a suggestion.

 


@craer87 wrote:

i dont see to much if any real benefit giveing the librarian/card catalog of the file system faster drives at this point in time.. unless im missing something. i pull 100% full gig speeds over the network atm. so not sure where it could help

 

 


It won't help with large file transfers.  It definitely does help if you have folders with lots of small files (documents or photos), and it will increase the speed of searches.  So it definitely depends on the data.

Message 4 of 14
craer87
Aspirant

Re: ssd tiering

sry this took so long and thanks

i did meen 2 ssd drives not 20 sry 

i do have a LOT of photos , movies on my Nas some aps and other stuff

so correct me if i am wrong but im showing 14 gigs of metadata and thats with 60-70% of  (3) 10TB drives installed used and plans to add 2-3 more.. so i plan on using some 240gig  (2 of them ) in raid 1 for help speed up the seak times and thumbnail pic?

i do with it can use them as a cache drive.

 

but what im reading is if i do this i cant ever!! remove this from the nas with out a fresh wipe and i cant upgrade the ssd or platter hard drives to a larger size?

also is anyone else using this or having any bugs with it

Message 5 of 14
StephenB
Guru

Re: ssd tiering


h@craer87 wrote:

 

so correct me if i am wrong but im showing 14 gigs of metadata and thats with 60-70% of  (3) 10TB drives installed used and plans to add 2-3 more.. so i plan on using some 240gig  (2 of them ) in raid 1 for help speed up the seak times and thumbnail pic?

i do with it can use them as a cache drive.


You can do that, and when you update the firmware to 6.10 the system would also use them for frequently used data files.

 


@craer87 wrote:

 

 

but what im reading is if i do this i cant ever!! remove this from the nas with out a fresh wipe and i cant upgrade the ssd or platter hard drives to a larger size?

 

I believe that tiering isn't something you can reverse.  @OOM-9 or @kohdee, is that the case???  I also don't know if you can expand the tiering (though in principle that could be done).

 

But you should be able to upgrade the mechanical disk sizes.  

 

The ability to reverse or expand the tiering would certainly be useful, so perhaps post a suggestion in the "idea exchange" here that requests that feature.

 

 

 

 

Message 6 of 14
kohdee
NETGEAR Expert

Re: ssd tiering


@StephenB wrote:

I believe that tiering isn't something you can reverse.  @OOM-9 or @kohdee, is that the case???  I also don't know if you can expand the tiering (though in principle that could be done).

 


A tier is just a special RAID group. You can incrementally expand a tier as long as your Tier is not a RAID 0, and you can also remove a tier. 

When you are looking at your System > Volumes screen, select the RAID group Tier (the one that says SSD) and click the circle X underneath the dropdown box. It will restore you to pre-tier configuration. Right now, if you select more SSDs to add "another tier," it will say "add group" but we will probably change it to say tier.  

Message 7 of 14
StephenB
Guru

Re: ssd tiering


@kohdee wrote:
A tier is just a special RAID group. You can incrementally expand a tier as long as your Tier is not a RAID 0, and you can also remove a tier. 

 

Thx for the quick reply, I think many folks will find it helpful (especially if they want to give tiering a try).

Message 8 of 14
craer87
Aspirant

Re: ssd tiering

YES Thank you to every one.

i know i will be doing a Dule 240gb ssd setup for my 10tb drives. But

one more this i was thinking about and just to save room on the main unit was can you use the readynas expansion chassis(EDA500-100NAS) to house the tier group and keep the local sata ports for the spinners?

other then that i think im veary happy with the responce and help. i will saw the readynas community is the best i have bin apart of thanks.

 

Oooo and i have wanted to know for a wile but what if any can i use the M.2 port for on the inside of my 528x i just dident want to plug anything in to it wile i was doing a deep cleen one day?

Message 9 of 14
StephenB
Guru

Re: ssd tiering


@craer87 wrote:

 

one more this i was thinking about and just to save room on the main unit was can you use the readynas expansion chassis(EDA500-100NAS) to house the tier group and keep the local sata ports for the spinners?

 

I wouldn't, for two reasons.

 

First, I don't think it's a good idea to have one volume spanning two chassis.  It's more fragile than keeping all the disks together.

 

Second, SATA port multipler in the EDS500 is a performance bottleneck, and that would reduce and perhaps even eliminate the performance benefit.

Message 10 of 14
kohdee
NETGEAR Expert

Re: ssd tiering


@StephenB wrote:

@craer87 wrote:

 

one more this i was thinking about and just to save room on the main unit was can you use the readynas expansion chassis(EDA500-100NAS) to house the tier group and keep the local sata ports for the spinners?

 

I wouldn't, for two reasons.

 

First, I don't think it's a good idea to have one volume spanning two chassis.  It's more fragile than keeping all the disks together.

 

Second, SATA port multipler in the EDS500 is a performance bottleneck, and that would reduce and perhaps even eliminate the performance benefit.


I agree. This would be a bad idea and totally counterproductive to the point of tiering. 

Message 11 of 14
TeknoJnky
Hero

Re: ssd tiering


@craer87 wrote:

Oooo and i have wanted to know for a wile but what if any can i use the M.2 port for on the inside of my 528x i just dident want to plug anything in to it wile i was doing a deep cleen one day?


Ooo I am very interested in the results if you try out the m2 slot, I want to use one not for the tiering, but to get my plex library off the raid array and onto SSD.

 

Message 12 of 14
craer87
Aspirant

Re: ssd tiering

makes sence.... i will keep the ssds off the EDS500  thanks just a thoght.

 

not sure if its a m.2 sata or a nvme i cant remember and cant find anything about it anywhere.

still waiting on a m.2 nvme i got off ebay for cheep and i will post what i find.

'or brake"

Message 13 of 14
TeknoJnky
Hero

Re: ssd tiering

hello, I had the cover off my 528x and the m2 slot I measured as about 2.5 inches (so about 60mm) total length, and it had ONE slot at the end.

 

when I looked on google images, it appears to be an NVME connector.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=m2+slot+vs+nvme+slot

 

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