Neighbor AP feature and Mesh

[ugonzalezh31]

Hi

I have fully read the user manual of the Wax610Y and Wax620 but there is no mention on what is the usage of the "Neighbor AP" feature  (configuration/security/neighbor AP menu option)

What is it for??
Does it has something to do with configuring a mesh system without using Insight?
Is it possible to configure a Mesh system without Insight?

Thank you

[schumaku · Accepted solution]

Not available in the standalone management - Insight features only:

• Basic roaming and OKC roaming can be enabled by location.
• 802.11r can be enabled by SSID on the Wireless Settings

[schumaku]

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@ugonzalezh31 wrote:

What is it for??

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Suggest to read the chapter "Display unknown and known neighbor access points" again.

Something like a Scanner Radio 8-)

@ugonzalezh31 wrote:

Does it has something to do with configuring a mesh system without using Insight?

No.

@ugonzalezh31 wrote:

Is it possible to configure a Mesh system without Insight?

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No. The name says it all:: How do I set up an Insight Instant Mesh network? 

Just to avoid any confusion: Wireless Access Points WAX6xx and WAC6xx connected to a wired network don't have to be added to create an Insight Mesh. 

[ugonzalezh31]

Hi, Thanks for replaying

My ignorance still does not allow me to see how to get any benefit from the Neightbor AP feature, but can you explain this a bit further "Just to avoid any confusion: Wireless Access Points WAX6xx and WAC6xx connected to a wired network don't have to be added to create an Insight Mesh." 

I have wax620 and wax610y both are ethernet connected and POE from a switch, what are you referring to when you said that in a wired configuration wax6xx don't have to be added to create an Insight Mesh ?? Do not have to be added to what?? you mean added as known APs  or is that something different ?

Thanks again

[schumaku]

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@ugonzalezh31 wrote:

My ignorance still does not allow me to see how to get any benefit from the Neightbor AP feature, ...

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This is a monitoring feature. Each AP is re-evaluating it's wireless environment on a regular, kind-of semi-random schedule. It does collect from what the AP does "see" on the air, and list wireless MAC (BSSIDs) and wireless names (SSIDs) in tables sorted to two tables: Some are known to the access point (because there is a logical dependency), others are unknown to the AP (neighbors, rouge APs, other wireless systems, ...)

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Monitoring > Neighbor AP
Unknown AP List
This page displays the list of unknown Access Points. The list retains the latest 200 (or less) neighbor access points. Inactive entries are removed from the list after 12 hrs. Use the Refresh button to update the list of access points
Use the Refresh button to update the list of Access Points.
Known AP List
This page displays the list of known Access Points.
Use the Refresh button to update the list of Access Points.

===

@ugonzalezh31 wrote:

but can you explain this a bit further "Just to avoid any confusion: Wireless Access Points WAX6xx and WAC6xx connected to a wired network don't have to be added to create an Insight Mesh." 

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Users new to work with wireless access point infrastructures often don't understand the consumer marketing terms like a "Wireless Mesh System". Yes, they come from consumer mesh systems and think they have to configure an Insight Mesh to allow e.g. seamless roaming. The Insight Mesh does allow adding additional wireless access points to add more coverage, without additional cabling.

@ugonzalezh31 wrote:

 you mean added as known APs  or is that something different ?

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No need to configure Insight Mesh for APs on pure wired networks. 

Known AP config is not available (or required typically) for Insight managed WAX6xx/WAC6xxx when I have it right.

[Pramendra]

Another indirect use of Neighbor AP feature is while debugging high channel utilization issues due to co-channel interference.

We can find out what other APs are operating on the same channel and and at what RSSI and can they cause co-channel interference.

-Pramendra

[ugonzalezh31]

"Users new to work with wireless access point infrastructures often don't understand the consumer marketing terms like a "Wireless Mesh System". Yes, they come from consumer mesh systems and think they have to configure an Insight Mesh to allow e.g. seamless roaming. The Insight Mesh does allow adding additional wireless access points to add more coverage, without additional cabling"

@schumaku 
According to Netgear tech support the only way to get Mesh is to use Insight and that implies an extra cost yearly, it is not that much, yes, but it is recurrent. Is there any other way to get seamless roaming ??

@Pramendra   yes, that extra usage you mentioned for the neighbor AP could be a valuable one in some cases.

[schumaku]

I was a little bit to brief in my previous post:

There is no requirement to enable Insight Mesh support when configuring all-wired network. WPA2-Personal does not require additional support - that's why you can combine e.g. also WAX21x/220 as well as WAX6xx - permitting the same SSID and security settings - into the same network. Any WPA3-SAE/-Personal and more obvious the WPA3 variants for enterprise deployments need additional support for seamless roaming. This is where the requirement is coming from.

Insight Mesh in general (for adding wireless satellites), you can't configure without the additional cloud support.

[schumaku]

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@ugonzalezh31 wrote:

@Pramendra   yes, that extra usage you mentioned for the neighbor AP could be a valuable one in some cases.

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All WAX6xx and WAC5xx offer the Neighbor AP list for operations and monitoring - the Insight integrated models don't need manual configuration and synchronization of Known Access Points for neighbor networks, the lists provided for Neighboring Access Points (as detected by each the access points) is always up2date. No export, fancy merge, and import of generated lists of trusted networks is required.

[ugonzalezh31]

@schumaku 

Thanks for your explanation it is now clear for me that WAP2 in a fully wired AP config will provide me seamless roaming as long as all the APs have same wireless configurations. Can you please explain or point me to a right documentation in order do have seamless roaming using WAP3-personal (SAE), please??

Thanks again

[schumaku]

To support seamless roaming on WPA3-SAE, there is more than just the same SSID and security key required as on WPA2-Personal. This does allow network-wide roaming and enabling 802.11r on the AP radios. One of the mandatory settings is the so called Mobility ID (Mobility Domain) - Netgear Insight does take care of everything for the user. 

[ugonzalezh31]

@schumaku 

Searching in the documentation I do not see any mention to 802.11r or Mobility ID
https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/WAX620/WAX620_UM_EN.pdf

I also searched on the GUI of the device and came back empty hands, I had to be honest I do knew about 802.11r but no idea on the mobility ID. So .. are these features that are not accessible from the GUI and get enabled only when you join Insight ??

[schumaku · Accepted solution]

Not available in the standalone management - Insight features only:

• Basic roaming and OKC roaming can be enabled by location.
• 802.11r can be enabled by SSID on the Wireless Settings

[Pramendra]

@ugonzalezh31 

NETGEAR Access points need to use Insight to provide seamless roaming (WP2/WPA3). OKC and 802.11r both are supported.

OKC (non standard) is by default enabled.

802.11r needs to be enabled from SSID configuration page. as mentioned by @schumaku , Insight will take care of plugging in Mobility Domain information on all the APs in the same Insight location.

Regards,

Pramendra

[ugonzalezh31]

Thank you guys, at this point my options looks simpler and I will make it clear in a post so next users can easily find what they need and do not make my mistake

If you need seamless roaming with wired APs, then use  wap2

If you need seamless roaming with wired APs and wap3 then you must pay an Insight subscription  - hint your brand new device has 1 year free or charge

If you need to use 802.11r then you must go for an Insight subscription, there is no way to configure it locally

If you need to enable Mesh, then you need to use Insight Mesh,  -- yes again join Insight and pay for it

Thanks @Pramendra and @schumaku 

I will see what option is best for me in the long run

Thank you for your time

[schumaku]

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@ugonzalezh31 wrote:

If you need seamless roaming with wired APs and wap3 then you must pay an Insight subscription ...

If you need to use 802.11r then you must go for an Insight subscription, there is no way to configure it locally

If you need to enable Mesh, then you need to use Insight Mesh,  -- yes again join Insight and pay for it

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Wrong approach. You invest into a fully cloud managed infrastructure, monitoring and operating from anywhere in the world, working and maintaining the system with ease from your fingertips. This comes with an annual price tag - and it includes seamless roaming, 802.11r, and the opportunity to operate select APs without wiring, automatically joining the root APs in a redundant way over the air to a Mesh.  

Netgear does also offer convenient models like the WAX618, WAX628, and the WAX638E exclusively for both residential and commercial custom network installations. Get powerful and reliable WiFi 6 and 6E connectivity for all your devices, even in high-density environments. Simplified enterprise-grade security and networking for the homes and businesses. These include 4 years of NETGEAR Insight Pro or Premium Subscription and 4 years of NETGEAR ProSupport OnCall 24x7 Service Pack.

Always happy to help - even if comments are predictable.

Regards,

-Kurt

[ugonzalezh31]

@schumaku 

I have reviewed the devices you suggested me they are a bit better than the ones I have but they are cloud dependant as well, so there is no point for me in selling/retuning what I have now and purchase those ones..

The most reasonable path I have now is to convince myself that the deployment cost $100 usd extra upfront,  then get that money to pay for Insight, so 1 year free  + another 3 payed years will be a total of 4 years or so. In 4 years from now we will probably have wifi 8 and wifi 7 will be cheapper and really usefull for some devices. So I will do a better investigation on what Netgear or the market has to offer and with some luck -maybe- I can get some devices not cloud dependant at all that better fit my needs then

As I said Insight is not expensive, actually it is price is cheap...

Thank you @schumaku  stay in touch

I think some Insigh questions will follow up LOL

[Eagle04]

Late chiming in here but my understanding is that using the Neighbor AP feature and setting known networks within it assists with roaming by using the 802.11k protocol.  You would need to enable Band Steering k/v within each SSID you create to take advantage of this.  The Neighbor AP feature can be used/set in stand-alone mode within the AP.

Happy to have someone else provide additional color to this but from my research/reading, this is the case.