Nighthawk mesh MR60 - devices that require 2.4 GHz connection

[MarcHChampagne]

Please be patient and descriptive in your replies, I pick things up pretty quickly but am far from a network engineer. 

I upgraded my entire network when the pandemic lockdown started due to my entire family working/schooling from home.  I had a slow cable internet and a 2nd generation Apple airport. I upgraded to 1G fiberoptic internet and bought the Nighthawk Mesh router and satellite.  I have loved the system, and actually bought 2 more satellites to hit the hard to reach areas of my home (which because of the metal lathe plaster walls is a challenge for all wireless communication).

The only issue I've had has come to light recently, with daylight savings time coming to an end.  I had purchased 3 WiFi controlled outlets (connected to my old router) that I love because of the ability to program them to turn on some lamps at different times and weather conditions.  When I switched routers to the new Nighthawk mesh, there was no isssue with these devices at all.  When daylight savings time ended, however, the devices were now coming on an hour earlier than what was programmed.  When I asked the manufacturer's support, I was told to disconnect the devices then reconnect them to fix the problem.  In retrospect, I wish I hadn't.

The devices would not reconnect (they use an app, "Smart Life," to connect and program).  I found out, through another inquiry with their support team, that they only work on 2.4 GHz band and I should connect to that band with my iPhone for a successful setup.  Any other suggestions they had were not available to me with the Netgear routers (for example, setting up two separate named networks, one for 2.4, one for 5 GHz)

Therein lies the rub.  I can't specify which band my phone connects to.  Checking through this forum, it seems that band selection is not a possibility with my new router.

I looked online to see if there were any other WiFi outlets for purchase that do not require 2.4 GHz band, and came up empty. 

Am I out of luck, or is there a work around in the router settings that I can use to help connect these type of devices?  Has any one had success with these types of devices and setting them up?  I was actually getting ready to purchase some wireless doorbell/security cameras, but now am hesitant due to this problem.  I truly feel this is a unfortunate limitation of my otherwise great router that I think Netgear should have been in tune to, or at least, be reacting to now.

Thank you in advance for any replies and help.  

[mrdeuceturbo · Accepted solution]

Thank you so much worked for me...I turned off my 2 satellites and went into my garage. I connected all my smart outlets in there.

[pjcesmat]

Hi,

I was having this same problem and have literally been scratching my head over it all day. If you go into your Nighthawk Netgear app and create a guest login. I was able to make my devices which require 2.4ghz to work that way. I am guessing guest logins get assigned to 2.4. I hope that helps. 

[retromad]

MR60 Foiled!

Netgear support: fix your firmware and allow for 2.4gz only mode or seperate sids - 

netgear 2.4ghz only mod

[MarcHChampagne]

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@pjcesmat wrote:

Hi,

I was having this same problem and have literally been scratching my head over it all day. If you go into your Nighthawk Netgear app and create a guest login. I was able to make my devices which require 2.4ghz to work that way. I am guessing guest logins get assigned to 2.4. I hope that helps. 

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@pjcesmat Thank you for the reply...  Sorry it has taken me so long to circle back.

When you say "If you go into your Nighthawk Netgear app and create a guest login" - how, exactly?  I don't see an option for this?  

My iPhone uses an app that allows me to connect the "smart" plugs in my house (that are now useless).  I would have to connect my iPhone to the 2.4 Ghz "guest" login somehow?  

Sorry - again I'm an engineer, just not the right kind for this stuff - but learning fast.

[schumaku]

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@MarcHChampagne wrote:

The devices would not reconnect (they use an app, "Smart Life," to connect and program).  I found out, through another inquiry with their support team, that they only work on 2.4 GHz band and I should connect to that band with my iPhone for a successful setup.  Any other suggestions they had were not available to me with the Netgear routers (for example, setting up two separate named networks, one for 2.4, one for 5 GHz)  

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Go back to the IoT "Smart Life" support and explain them on how decent wireless systems are working - feel free to send them a link or this information - and ask when this simple fix will be made vailable to the App:

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There is _no_ technical need to connect to the 2.4 GHz radio - the only purpose _was_ for legacy routers where different network names are used for connecting to th every same network, so the App will pick the correct SSID (network name) to be configured to the IoT.

What really happens? The factory reset IoT are putting up a typically hidden set-up SSID on air, the App will fetch the current WiFi SSID (probably also the security key), briefly disconnect from the WiFi network, search for the manufacturer specific SSID on air and connect insecure or with a predefined password, then push the WiFi SSID (along with the wireless security key or passphrase) to the IoT.

At no point it's required to have the mobile on the 2.4 GHz network - especially not on modern Mesh systems using a single SSID. It does not matter if the mobile with the App is connected to a 2.4 GHz, a 5 GHz, a 60 GHz network, or the new WiFi 6E 6 GHz band the latest wireless systems can use - permitting all wireless SSID and security are set the same.

All they have to do is remove the stupid check for a 2.4 GHz connection, or allow to skip this check (instead of a dead end!) in their stupid discovery and configuration Apps.

For  reason, no mobile device wireless client does allow a control which band should be used - because ONE SSID defines the connection to ONE network.

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@retromad love the proposal wrapping (shielding) the device - cool workaround!

[schumaku]

Reviewed the "Smart Life" App (on Android) - at no point it does ask to use or connect to the 2.4 GHz network. There is just a note stating "The device only supports connection to the 2.4g network. Thank you for oyur support andunderstanding.".

[retromad]

Agreed that the applications/connecting devices should not be dumb, however, If netgear is not going to let us have seperate sids, what would be nice is if they allowed us to choose what devices get what frequencies (filter via mac address).  I have a house full of google home devices that cannot seem to understand that devices on a 2.4 network are on the same network as the 5 devices (I know google dumb).  I would like to be able to just specifiy all Ghome devices as 2.4.  I have them setup with reserved IP, how hard would it be to add a network frequency to this setting?

Aside from all this, we should be able to setup sids with frequencies, it is really dumb on netgears part that we cannot as the hardware in these units can do it.  I should be able to setup a 2.4 and 5 ghz sid without putting foil on my router... 🙂

[JamesterReyburg]

Any luck on your end resolving this problem?

I've had  Amazon Echos go in and out of working or working oddly, I've had smart switches and plugs stop working, I had a devil of a time getting the garage door connected, and all around this 2.4Ghz/5.0Ghz issue. And then to face hostility when looking for answers, because the devices and apps are the problem?  I'm with you, how hard could it be to just allow a setting for the "dumb" smart devices, so that everything plays nice?

[retromad]

So this issue and a host of google smart device issues has led me to believe that there is a deeper issue with how the nighthawk mesh devices bond the 2.4 and 5ghz channels.  Keep in mind these channels are all on the same sid.  Additionally I believe the connected device limit listed on the Nighthawks (30 devices I think) is probably an best case scenario number.  

My results with the nighthawk MR60 system is that devices on the same sid occassionally could not "see" each other unless they were also on the same frequency (e.g. 2.4 or 5).  My home has approximately 25 devices (rgb bulbs, thermostats, dimmers) and it seemed like the MR60 struggled to keep all of them happy/connected in a 2000 sq foot house with normal (not concrete or metal) walls.

Given the wifi/IOT devices out there right now usually have junky antennas and poor support for anything out of the ordinary when it comes to wifi.  I guess this was to be expected.  

The solution (and you are probably not going to like it..) was to return my MR60 and purchase an orbi mesh system (still netgear made).  Once I installed the orbi all my connected devices on both 2.4 and 5ghz could talk to each other.

[schumaku]

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@retromad wrote:

My results with the nighthawk MR60 system is that devices on the same sid occassionally could not "see" each other unless they were also on the same frequency (e.g. 2.4 or 5). 

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Unanswered if this applies to the 2.4 or 5 GHz radio on the same device .... or if you try to state this applies "system wide" to router and all satellites. That would be very unlikely, because of the network frames travel all together over the wireless backhaul.

This might be a bug or unexpected limitation on the MR60/MS60 - all radio bands configured to the same SSID connect to the very same L2 network, the same broadcast domain. 

[JamesterReyburg]

Probably too late to return my system,  so I'd have to eat the cost. So much for thinking I was getting a "better" system than if I'd just bought a single router, rather than a mesh system. Very disappointed . Thanks for answering.

[schumaku]

@JamesterReyburg what cost? Find the App on Google Play resp. the Apple App Store, and contact the App maker. Or get in contact wth the maker of your wonderful IoT and point them to this thread resp. my post above.

Again: This is neither a Mesh/router issue nor a problem with the Android or Apple mobile. Granted, both could add controls to allow a 2.4 GHz connection - but for several practical reasons, this isn't available.

[JamesterReyburg]

My issue isn't with Google (as far as I know). The main problem is with Amazon Echos. They all get on the network, but they pick whatever band they pick, and they can't then cooperate to play music everywhere, because they technically aren't all on the same network. To the best of my understanding. But I had mind-bending issues trying to get myQ garage door to work, an HP printer, and now a wall switch. ALL of these things are the fault of the others and not of Netgear? Apologies, but I don't  understand that.

[JamesterReyburg]

Okay, you seem to know a lot about this sort of thing, so maybe you can answer this.

I tried *everything* to get my myQ garage door to function to no avail, even got on the phone for an hour with one of the techs at  LiftMaster. And it was only when, by chance, I tried enabling the guest network, and hooked to that, and BAM, it worked, first try.

Thinking myself a genius, I tried this with my Amazon Echos. Nope. Tried it with the wall switch. Nope. But the garage door lets me say, "alexa, open sesame," and it still works on the guest network. Why?

Anyway, thanks for your responses. I never heard of "IoT," and I'm the guy most of my friends and family turn to when tech stuff doesn't work. Guess I'm falling behind.

[JamesterReyburg]

I really did find the solution. Youtube tech guy had the easy, easy solution. 

https://youtu.be/xarVXR1nSs8

Basically, you just unplug the satellite boxes, walk away with your phone until the network disengages, then walk slowly back until it re-engages. Bada-bing, you're on the 2.4 Ghz connection, and can set up the devices. Worked for the wall switch, worked for the echos. And I'm not dumb enough to even mess with the garage door, it's working on the guest network, it can stay there.

Whew. 

--Jamie

[JamesterReyburg]

I should have said: walk away from your HOUSE. . .I had to go about 6 houses away to disengage my connection.

[retromad]

Some of the devices were on 2.4 and some were on 5. I agree, there should be no difference at layer 2, however, the google minis in particular, seemed to not like being spread across both bands and would routinely drop off or not be visible/pingable. They would also inexplicably be reachable via the guest network during this time. This tells me there is something wonky (or a bug) with the way the mr60 is bonding or routing traffic across the bands on the same sid. If I can reach(ping) a device from the guest sid but not from its own sid that's a problem. It shouldn't be like it is, but it do...
This issue could also be partially due to having too many devices on the MR60 as I did have about 25 all connected in a mixed 2.4/5 sid. Maybe when these units are in heavy use or taxed they exhibit behaviors that have not been fully explored or documented by netgear?

Either way, upgrading to the orbi fixed all issues that I had.

For those still struggling to get 2.4 on your mr60 mesh. Just unplug all your satilites and cover your router in foil. Then go as far away as you can and check which band your on (should be 2.4). Using my house as an example, I had to go down a floor and to the opposite side of my house.

[retromad]

Np, glad to help. Maybe netgear support would let you trade up given the issues you are having. Could not hurt to try...

[DuarteVic]

I tried using the guest login and it was still 5GHZ!

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@pjcesmat wrote:

Hi,

I was having this same problem and have literally been scratching my head over it all day. If you go into your Nighthawk Netgear app and create a guest login. I was able to make my devices which require 2.4ghz to work that way. I am guessing guest logins get assigned to 2.4. I hope that helps. 

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[MarcHChampagne]

Seriously?  The solution is to disconnect all of my satelites (3) and wrap my router in foil?  I paid good money for a router and I have to get out the tin foil?

This router sucks, but I'm beyond the return period...

[schumaku]

Seriously: Complain to the maker if this IoJ and whatever smart app used for discovery. At no point it's required the mobile must connect by using the the 2.4 GHz band - for a reason, NO wireless client does allow to force the usage eg. either the 2.4 or the 5 GHz band - why ever, this is what this junk asks for. The single SSID and security key does work on both the 2.4 GHz and the 5 GHz band, a 2.4 GHz only client configured to these settings will connect to 2.4 GHz - except if the wireless clients struggle with the additional bits in place on a Mesh system. In that case again, only the IoJ maker can help.

[JamesterReyburg]

I've seen this sort of  reply a few times, that the fault lies with the maker of the app or device. Yeah, well maybe. But it lies with a WHOLE LOT of them. Whirlpool, Liftmaster, Amazon, HP, and a bunch of foreign makers of switches and plugs. I've had problems with almost everything  in my lengthy list of "smart" devices since I got the Netgear Nighthawk mesh system.  The Ring doorbell and Nest thermostat are the only devices that haven't had an issue.

This is an infuriatingly frustrating problem, and it recurs. Even after everything has been set up, things "fall out" of working, and setup again becomes a torturous process of tinfoil and trying to force the phone to connect to 2.4.  Your answer isn't helpful. Contacting a long list of manufacturers, and asking them to change their devices and apps isn't likely to result in a solution.

[JamesterReyburg]

Question: you say go as far away as you can, then check which band you're on. . .

How do you check which band you're on?  I've seen no indicator on my phone that tells me if it's connected to 2.4 or 5. Thanks.

[retromad]

On Android you long press the wifi button on the top pulldown menu then press the connected network (your sid). The network band is listed on the second item labled frequency. It will say either 2.4ghz or 5ghz.

[JamesterReyburg]

It doesn't. It really doesn't. But thanks.

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@retromad wrote:
On Android you long press the wifi button on the top pulldown menu then press the connected network (your sid). The network band is listed on the second item labled frequency. It will say either 2.4ghz or 5ghz.

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