Re: Orbi 960 Wired Backhaul driving me nuts

JerseyMike · ‎2024-03-12

I have one RBRE960 and two RBSE960 satellites, all in Access Point mode. I am trying to set up wired backhaul between all three through a couple of unmanaged 2.5GB switches, and it's driving me crazy.

Can someone explain to me why this works:

but this does not:

I would prefer *NOT* to have *ALL* traffic going through that first RBRE960.

plemans · ‎2024-03-12

Most simplistic response is the router manages the satellites

Its been asked on here multiple times but it needs to go gateway---->router----->satellites/switches

if you want it to run properly

JerseyMike · ‎2024-03-12

So "Access Point Mode" is not accurate. It's not a true AP.

Would this work?

CrimpOn · ‎2024-03-12

Great diagram, thanks.

When Netgear software engineers designed Orbi routers, the assumption was that satellites appear only on the "LAN side" of the router. connected either:

over a 5G WiFi connection, or
through one of the LAN ports of the router

Satellites are not found on the WAN side of the router, so the firmware does not look for satellites on that port.

Could they have designed the product differently? Maybe. But they designed it this way.

As an intellectual question: Why does the network "seem to work", but the Orbi router has no idea what's going on with the satellites and their attached devices?

Answer: because the wiring and switches create an Ethernet LAN subnet, every device is able to find every other device by issuing an Address Resolution Protocol (ARP) broadcast which returns the hardware MAC address of the sought device. The Ethernet adapters/swith ports use their ARP records to say, "Oh, to reach 192.168.1.45, I send a packet out port 4 to MAC address 00:00:00:00:00:00 and it will get there."

As @plemans mentioned, this has become a frequent topic on the forum.

As to whether this disqualifies the Orbi from being a "true WiFi access point", the situation may be a bit ambiguous. I have some generic WiFi access points in my "Box of Stuff". They are not "mesh" WiFi, so in addition to having no "router functions", they have no knowledge of other network devices at all. I would have to see what happens when one of those non-mesh WiFi APs is connected to the network using a LAN port rather than the WAN port their installation procedure calls for. Hmmmmm. A project!

JerseyMike · ‎2024-03-12

@CrimpOn wrote:
the assumption was that satellites appear only on the "LAN side" of the router.

If that is the case, then why doesn't this work? all satellites are on the LAN side:

FURRYe38 · ‎2024-03-12

Any and all Orbi systems, if RBS are ethernet connected, require and have required, the connection to be from the modem to RBR then out to any RBS connected directly or via a LAN switch, behind the RBR only, router or AP mode:

https://kb.netgear.com/000051205/What-is-Ethernet-backhaul-and-how-do-I-set-it-up-on-my-Orbi-WiFi-Sy...

There seems to be specific Orbi data between the RBR and RBS that is managed by the RBR and passed back and forth. We've seen this data not get passed by other routers being the connection point for the RBS. Thus the configuration is needed and required for ethernet RBS as seen above. The only way this works.

CrimpOn · ‎2024-03-12

@JerseyMike wrote:

@CrimpOn wrote:

the assumption was that satellites appear only on the "LAN side" of the router.

If that is the case, then why doesn't this work? all satellites are on the LAN side:

Probably because my explanation was incorrect. No connection on the WAN side must screw something up. The results are consistent that the network will "work" in the sense that devices can communicate, but the Orbi router will not report information that users want to view.

JerseyMike · ‎2024-03-12

@CrimpOn wrote:
No connection on the WAN side must screw something up.

So once again, would this work? There's a connection on the WAN and LAN port of the RBRE960.

CrimpOn · ‎2024-03-12

I would guess you'll know soon enough. Is this an intellectual exercise? You've already established that the 10G WAN port to the ISP works. No speed is lost going through the router.

Just asking.

FURRYe38 · ‎2024-03-12

Will probably create a loop storm. Again, Only the RBR can be connected to the WAN port while iN AP mode to the host router or switch. Then all RBS connected behind the RBR.

schumaku · ‎2024-03-12

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Will probably create a loop storm.

Extremely likely, yes. In case these switch do have some loop prevention, it's likely one of the ports would be shut down.

CrimpOn · ‎2024-03-12

@CrimpOn wrote:

I would have to see what happens when one of those non-mesh WiFi APs is connected to the network using a LAN port rather than the WAN port their installation procedure calls for. Hmmmmm. A project!

Sorry to report there will be no "project". Every WiFi "Access Point" that I find on Amazon is similar to the TP-Link model in my "Box of Stuff". One Ethernet port. Thus, there is no way to discover what happens when the access point is connected using a LAN port rather than the designated WAN port.

In a way I guess this makes sense. If devices are close enough to the primary network for an Ethernet cable to reach them, then a simple Ethernet switch would work. Not much point in the AP having additional Ethernet ports. Orbi satellites have Ethernet ports because they were designed to connect to the router over WiFi, just as generic "WiFi Extenders" do.

schumaku · ‎2024-03-13

@CrimpOn wrote:

@CrimpOn wrote:

I would have to see what happens when one of those non-mesh WiFi APs is connected to the network using a LAN port rather than the WAN port their installation procedure calls for. Hmmmmm. A project!

Sorry to report there will be no "project". Every WiFi "Access Point" that I find on Amazon is similar to the TP-Link model in my "Box of Stuff". One Ethernet port.

Time to introduce you to Marty. he will show you the Flux Compensator 8-)

Here is a real-world model:

Amazon? Loool, what a tech reference. Head to TP-Link and find the EAP783 for example. There are -valid-reasons for -two- 10 GbE ports: The net wireless bandwidth does easily exceed the capabilities of a single 10 GbE link. Definitively faster than any current and recently announced Netgear WiFi 7 model. No idea on which planet our friends are stuck ... "Customers done need more ideas" ? I heard these before. Was it 20 years ago, when Gigabit Ethernet was introduced? Was it 10 years ago, when ....

However; I do admit, that for a consumer Orbi Mesh one 10 GbE port might be sufficient. And no, I don't talk of the 2.5 GbE satellite LAN port "design" at this point here - another relict from the past.

Do we have to discuss Moore's law? Variable is only the time scale. These days, it moved from two years (as a decade ago) to about one year 8-)

CrimpOn · ‎2024-03-13

Thanks for finding the TP-Link. Since the Netgear forum is a large part of my entertainment these days, any time a technical question comes up regarding something that costs under $30, I just buy one on Amazon to test and then put in my "Box of Stuff".

When this question about connecting an Access Point to the network using its LAN port rather than the WAN port came up, I discovered that my "Box" contained only one true Access Point, and it had only a single Ethernet port. (It was $20 on Amazon.) No problem. I'll just buy one with more than one Ethernet port. Everything with multiple Ethernet ports was a "router" perhaps with an optional Access Point mode (similar to the Orbi).