RBR850 - Poor download speeds on Wi-Fi

[Mickesj]

Hi guys,

Having some serious issues with download speed when on Wi-Fi. Have 500/500 Internet link and when I use cable connected directly to router i get about that so just Wi-.Fi that's affected. This started quite recently after upgrade to V7.2.6.21_5.0.20. Have tried to downgrading to 4.6.14.3 but that did not help. Did a factory reset and confiugured from scratch but did'nt help either 😞  

Setup: 

Hardware Version RBR850
Firmware Version V7.2.6.21_5.0.20
GUI Language Version V3.0.3.10_2.1.30.3

2 x RBS850: V7.2.6.21

Wi-Fi settings: 

2.4 GHz Channel: Auto (tried changing but no effect)

5 GHz Channel:: 40 (tried changing but no effect)

WPA2-PSK [AES]

IoT disabled

20/40 MHz Coexistence enabled
WMM (Wi-Fi multimedia) settings (2.4 & 5Ghz GHz) enabled

CTS/RTS Threshold (1-2347):  64/64 (tried changing this but had no effect)

Internet: 500/500 IP-Only fiber connection

Router connected to fiber-box with CAT6 RJ45 (tested a brand new CAT6 but made no difference).

Tried PC, Macbook, iPhone, PS5 etc really close to RBR and all devices get around 50-90Mbit download and 350-450 upload using speedtest and other apps (we have one in Sweden called "bredbandskollen").

(with cable connected to router LAN port ~450/450).

Any ideas on what to do here would be greatly appreciated!

//Mike

[CrimpOn]

I agree that these speeds over WiFi are totally unexpected.

I would leave the RTS/CTS setting at 2347.  RTS/CTS is a really complicated subject and Netgear has changed the default setting from one firmware release to another with no formal explanation.  The way I read general explanations indicates that each device may have its own RTS/CTS setting. Thus, a very small value for the router would result in nearly every packet transmission using the RTS/CTS mechanism.  This would cut into maximum download bandwidth quite a bit.

Would it be possible to find the reported Link Rate on these various devices for both transmit and receive?

(for example, my Android phone is now reporting Transmit link speed of 468Mbps and Receive link speed of 650Mbps.)

[FURRYe38]

What is the Mfr and model# of the Internet Service Providers modem/ONT the NG router is connected too?
Be sure your using a good quality LAN cable between the modem and router. CAT6A STP is recommended. 

What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?
What is the distance between the router and 📡 satellite(s)? 30 feet or more is recommended in between RBR📡 and RBS🛰️ to begin with depending upon building materials when wired or wirelessly connected.
https://kb.netgear.com/31029/Where-should-I-place-my-Orbi-satellite ‌‌🛰️

Does this happen with the RBS turned OFF? 
Does this happen with both wireless and wired devices? 
Try setting manual channel 1, 6 or 11 on 2.4Ghz and 40 to 48 channel on 5Ghz.

Be sure to disable any MAC Address randomizers on phones and pads while at home:
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-App/NETGEAR-Mobile-Applications-and-Apple-Devices-FAQ/td-p/222...

https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/realistic-speeds-wi-fi-5-and-wi-fi-6
https://www.wiisfi.com
https://www.duckware.com/tech/wifi-in-the-us.html
https://support.google.com/fiber/answer/6250056#zippy=%2Cmobile-devices-wi-fi

[Mickesj]

Thank you for the advice on RTS/CTS settings.

PC (Dell 7320) link rate: 1201/961 Mbps

Speedtest result: 74/444Mbps 

Macbook Pro: link rate 867Mbps 

Speedtest result: 45/398Mbps

Is there a way to see this on an iPhone? 

[Mickesj]

Thanks for the tips and advice!

What is the Mfr and model# of the Internet Service Providers modem/ONT the NG router is connected too?

Inteno XG6846

Be sure your using a good quality LAN cable between the modem and router. CAT6A STP is recommended.

Using CAT 6 STP

What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?

2600
What is the distance between the router and  satellite(s)?

Over 30 feet

Does this happen with the RBS turned OFF? 

Yes
Does this happen with both wireless and wired devices? 

Only when on wireless (wired gives full up/down speeds)
Try setting manual channel 1, 6 or 11 on 2.4Ghz and 40 to 48 channel on 5Ghz.

Tried changing them around, no change.

Be sure to disable any MAC Address randomizers on phones and pads while at home:

Tested this, no change.

Also, did a test where I disabled main Wi-Fi and enabled IoT wireless network (forced 5Ghz) - same results as with the main Wi-Fi.

[FURRYe38]

---

@Mickesj wrote:

Thanks for the tips and advice!

What is the Mfr and model# of the Internet Service Providers modem/ONT the NG router is connected too?

Inteno XG6846

This checks and indicates there is a router built in here. Is this bridged or in router mode? 

FYI: 

This would be a double NAT (two router) condition which isn't recommended. https://kb.netgear.com/30186/What-is-Double-NAT
https://kb.netgear.com/30187/How-to-fix-issues-with-Double-NAT
Couple of options,
1. Configure the modem for transparent bridge or modem only mode. Then use the Orbi router in router mode. You'll need to contact the ISP for help and information in regards to the modem being bridged correctly.
2. If you can't bridge the modem, disable ALL wifi radios on the modem, configure the modems DMZ/ExposedHost or IP Pass-Through for the IP address the Orbi router gets from the modem. Then you can use the Orbi router in Router mode.
3. Or disable all wifi radios on the modem and connect the Orbi router to the modem, configure AP mode on the Orbi router. https://kb.netgear.com/31218/How-do-I-configure-my-Orbi-router-to-act-as-an-access-point and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7LOcJ8GdDo&app=desktop
Try option #2 first...

Be sure your using a good quality LAN cable between the modem and router. CAT6A STP is recommended.

Using CAT 6 STP

What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?

2600

For this size of home, the RBR and just one RBS would be needed. Maybe two with power settings set to 50%. 

What is the distance between the router and  satellite(s)?

Over 30 feet

Does this happen with the RBS turned OFF? 

Yes
Does this happen with both wireless and wired devices? 

Only when on wireless (wired gives full up/down speeds)
Try setting manual channel 1, 6 or 11 on 2.4Ghz and 40 to 48 channel on 5Ghz.

Tried changing them around, no change.

Be sure to disable any MAC Address randomizers on phones and pads while at home:

Tested this, no change.

Also, did a test where I disabled main Wi-Fi and enabled IoT wireless network (forced 5Ghz) - same results as with the main Wi-Fi.

Points to maybe something with the wifi device. When speed testing, make suure that when you are near the RBR or RBS, disable the wifi radio on the wifi device for 5 seconds then re-enable it then speed test. This ensures the wifi device locks on ot the nearest signal for best speed test performance. 

Last app I had was WiFi Sweetspots however not sure if that app works anymore.

---

[CrimpOn]

---

@Mickesj wrote:

PC (Dell 7320) link rate: 1201/961 Mbps

Speedtest result: 74/444Mbps 

Macbook Pro: link rate 867Mbps 

Speedtest result: 45/398Mbp

---

These connection link rates indicate that the PC is connected at WiFi6 (802.11ax) and the Macbook Pro is probably connected at WiFi5 (876Mbps).  The product specifications would indicate the WiFi capabilities precisely.

I cannot conceive of anything that could cause the WiFi performance to be unbalanced this way.  If the WiFi frequency is overloaded by nearby users, it would affect WiFi transmission regardless of 'direction'.  Unless some other device on the network is absolutely hogging the download link at the precise time these tests are run, I just don't get it.

[Mickesj]

Really really strange..

Shut down everything in the entire house that has a radio transmitter (alarm, yale doorman locks, camera-hub, xiaomi robots, apple-tv's, google home, automated lightning, washing machine etc etc) and both RBSs so that only my PC was connected.

Did a hardware reset and tested after that (my PC being only connected device) -> no change.

Downgraded RBR to V4.6.14.3_2.3.12 -> no change.

Connection via cable to router gives full speed up/dwn in all tests.

You think it might be that the router-hw is broken?

[CrimpOn]

I would think that broken hardware would reduce performance in both directions.  I can think of only one other possibility, and have no idea how to investigate it: Military/Weather Radar.

Radio use is regulated in every part of the globe.  In the US, the FCC controls which frequencies are available.  In Europe, it appears to be some sort of group effort.  See the footnotes for Europe in this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WLAN_channels#5_GHz_(802.11a/h/n/ac/ax) 

WiFi routers achieve impressive speed using two techniques:

• Combining frequencies into a larger bandwidth
• Using complicated modulation so that each chunk of data can represent more information.
  WiFi5 (802.11ac) uses 256QAM (2^8 = 256) meaning 8 bits of data per radio symbol
  WiFi6 (802.11ax) uses 1024QAM (2^10 = 1024) meaning 10 bits of data per symbol, an increase of 25%
  See, for example:
  https://forum.huawei.com/enterprise/en/1024-QAM/thread/667282457449349121-667213871523442688 

In the US, the 5G frequency band from 5170 to 5280 GHz (channels 36 through 48) are "available" and the Orbi 850 uses these frequencies for user WiFi connections.

In Europe, this frequency band is not completely available. As footnotes 1 and 2 indicate, the WiFi system must take steps to avoid interfering with military and weather radar systems. (indoor use only. reduce power. "mitigate" - whatever THAT means).

My hypothesis is that the Orbi router has detected radar using part of the radio frequency and is not using all of the channels to transmit information, but the user devices (PC, Macbook, PS5) are just blasting away on all frequencies and thus achieve higher bandwidth.

But, geez, how to validate/reject this hypothesis? I suggest:

• Perhaps there are user forums in Sweden that might discuss WiFi and radar issues?
• Download WiFi Info View (free for Windows from Nirsoft https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/wifi_information_view.html )
  Use the Advanced Settings to capture only the 5G channel from your own SSID (otherwise it captures every WiFi system in the neighborhood) and look at the details about which frequencies it is using.

[Mickesj]

Interesting theory! Given the current state of things this might be it if i'm unlucky.

This started to happen quite recently, setup has worked just fine for +6 months. Thought about if we had added or changed anything since I updgraded to this setup (from RBK 50) and we bought a new TV but having that unplugged didn't change anything.  Never had any issues with Wi-Fi speeds in this house (owned since 2018) previously. 

Ran WiFi Info View like you suggested, attached pic of what my networks look like.

2.4 set to auto, 5Ghz set to 36, 2.4 shows on channel 3 and 5Ghz on 40 in Info View.

1 2.4 and 1 5Ghz network shows pretty bad RSSI but not sure that is an issue? Networks around aren't that many (that I can see) and no channels seems to be clogged/congested

What would happen if I changed my country code, for example to United States to gain access to more channels?

Would that be something to try to see if it makes any difference (would not stay on it)?

[CrimpOn]

Thanks for all the effort.  WiFi Info View reports each individual WiFi access point.  With one router and two satellites, that makes three APs using 5G chanel 40 (for management. Channels 34-50 for data transmission) and three APs using 2.4G channel 3.

I am puzzled that it appears the PC is connected to a WiFi AP with lower signal.  (RSSI of -68 and signal quality of 60.6 when there is another AP with a better signal (RSSI -56, quality 80.9)  Does the Orbi Attached Devices screen or the Orbi 'app' Device Manager show the PC connected to the closest Orbi?

One of the frustrating parts of the Orbi system is changing Region codes.  Yes, I would recommend setting the Region to match the actual location.  For example, the WiFi link between Orbi router and satellites is different in the US than many other regions (US uses channel 157. Europe uses channel 108.)  There have been numerous reports on the forum of customers who find they cannot change the region code - and we on the forum have no idea why not.  In the User Manual:

page 62:

[Mickesj]

I am the one that should thank you guys for your efforts in trying to help me 🙂

Must say that I am at loss here, have no clue on what to do about this..other then buying another router (diff brand) and test if that one also encounters the same issues with dwnload speeds.

Saw that I still have hardware warranty on the units, any chance one could get Netgear to replace the RBR unit?

[FURRYe38]

Make contact now and ask about RMA options:

https://my.netgear.com/support/contact.aspx
https://www.netgear.com/support/contact.aspx
Then clicking on "Get answers about NETGEAR products before I buy" then clicking on "Networking for Home" then "Chat with us".

Might ask about cross RMA, they send you replacement so you can test it out. If it fixes, then you send old system back. If nothing changes then you send RMA back. If you don't send the RMA or Original system back based on outcome, then you get charged for a new system. 

[CrimpOn]

One tiny puzzle:  The WiFi Info View display shows the three access points broadcasting a Country Code of DE (Germany).  Wonder where the heck that comes from?

Is this router using German for the language?

I checked my neighborhood. Most of the WiFi systems show "US" and many broadcast no country code at all.

[Mickesj]

The router recomended Swedish but i'm using english since i find it makes fault etc searching a bit easier 🙂

Pic on how it looks under Advanced/Wireless Settings where you can set the region. Sweden isn't in the list but Europe + United Kingdom is (bundle). Sweden and Germany have the same channels, think that's why it sets it to DE since your'e in "Europe".

[schumaku]

Yes, despite of the UK having split up from the EU, they still follow the same similar regulatories, TPC/DFS and ETSI still applies.

The country code (part of a historical and in my opinion obsolete) is not relevant for the association of a WiFi client - the client has to use different methods.

[Mickesj]

Bought the TP-link Deco X50-PoE AX3000 (3 units) yesterday and replaced the 850 system. Speedtest now shows a whole different scenario when using Wi-Fi. Wi-Fi settings used are exactely the same as on the 850 and router/satellite placement is the same. (Deco scanned sourroundings and set the channel to 48/160MHz for 5GHz).

Adapter used here is ASUS USB-AC53 802.11ac Wireless USB connected at 650/866 (Mbps). On Orbi the same adapter gave around 40-50 up so quite clearly a massive improvment.

Test from my Dell 7320 laptop (connects at 2162/1729) gives ~280/260 using same test. 

So...not sure what I'm going to do. Can return the Deco system (but kinda like it..)..or sell the Orbi..or try again with it but I'm out of clues on what to try since I have tested changing everything on it without result 😕