RBRE960 (7.2.6.21) and 2.4ghz-only IoT and Sonos Playbar Gen 1

[gumpgump]

I have a RBRE960 on a single network that has several Sonos speakers.   The issue I am having is that the Sonos Playbar (GEN 1) is 2.4ghz only -- so the controller doesn't see it well.   I tried enabling the IoT network for ONLY 2.4ghz with no luck -- we tried disabling 5ghz just to test, and it actually did not disable it for the SSID.

The only option I see here is to keep the Playbar hard-wired.   But, I've seen some other reports of similar issues -- shouldn't y effort to create an isolated 2.4ghz network really work correctly?  That is, disabling 2.4 on the primary SSID and enabling only on the IoT network.

I don't see options for bandwidth steering, as a Sonos rep asked about, in addition they recommended a different channel for 2.4ghz which isn't present in the firmware menu (can't remember what that was lol). 

Thanks.

[Phyber]

Have you tried using the Guest Network, which is 2.4GHz? I don't bother with the IoT options and just point all of my IoT devices etc to the Guest Network, which I've given a different SSID and password to.

[CrimpOn]

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@gumpgump wrote:

The issue I am having is that the Sonos Playbar (GEN 1) is 2.4ghz only -- so the controller doesn't see it well.

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2.4G WiFi has a stronger signal at any given distance than 5G WiFi, so frequency is not likely to be the issue.

Does "controller" mean:

• An actual physical device, or
• An app from Sonos running on a smartphone or tablet?

[gumpgump]

By "controller" I am referring to the iOS app -- for some reason, there's no option to have the PC/Mac as a controller, which I don't fully understand why.

Another thing, the iPhone 15 Pro operates at 6ghz -- and the "controller" app here (Sonos) keeps having trouble seeing my systems when I leave the house and return -- just now, for example.  But the app on my Macbook is operating the speakers and streaming just fine (I have a 16" Macbook Pro (Intel)).    Right now, the iOS "controller" app says "Unable to find your Sonos system, let's fix it" LOL  I'm like WTF for the Nth time of this....

I've reset this iOS app a few times, it's really frustrating -- that this doesn't work more smoothly.

The Sonos rep and I were trying to join the Gen 1 Playbar to just the 2.4ghz SSID, but we just didn't have any luck. 

[gumpgump]

If I could get the iOS app ("controller") to behave in a consistent manner (LOL) I could join the Playbar to another SSID.   But this just isn't happening -- it's the latest Sonos app, but I believe it may be a bit buggy.

[CrimpOn]

I fear there is too much fixation on frequency.  For example:

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@gumpgump wrote:

Another thing, the iPhone 15 Pro operates at 6ghz

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While technically correct, this is not material.  The iPhone 15 Pro has this specification:

From Apple:

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP903?locale=en_US 

• Wi‑Fi 6E (802.11ax) with 2x2 MIMO⁹

From GSM Arena:

https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_15_pro-12557.php 

a/b/g/n/ac/6e, means that it supports 2.4G and 5G WiFi (dual band) including every WiFi standard from the very first (802.11a) through the most recent (802.11ax) and also supports the new WiFi6E (6Ghz frequency band).  This iPhone is supposed to communicate with any form of WiFi, from the oldest pre-2000 WiFi to the latest, which also is supported on the RBRE960 Orbi system.  i.e. if you enable the WiFi6E (6GHz) feature on this Orbi system, the iPhone should connect to it.

(See page 62 of the user manual:

https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/RBKE963/RBRE960_RBSE960_UM_EN.pdf  )

The way the vast majority of Internet of Things (IoT) devices work is

• When it is waiting to be configured, the device (soundbar) broadcasts a WiFi signal with some goofy name (like maybe 'sonos-12345'.
• The app installed on the smartphone looks for a WiFi access point with that goofy name and connects to it.
• If the device is supposed to connect to the home WiFi (and nearly all of them do), the app communicates the WiFi credentials to the device, i.e. WiFi SSID and password.
• The device searches for a WiFi system with that SSID, asks to associate with it (fancy term for connect), supplies the required password, and is connected.
• From then on, if either the IoT device or the WiFi network is powered off, when power is restored the IoT device connects automatically.
• The smartphone can connect to the primary, IoT, or 6G network at any speed. Because they communicate through the network, there is no problem.

Some IoT devices have smartphone apps that are poorly written:

• Some of them detect that the smartphone is connected to WiFi at 5G and refuse to proceed. "MUST have 2.4G" they scream. Ironically, if they would just deliver the SSID/password to the IoT  device, it would find the WiFi network just fine.  But they are trying to be too helpful and will not proceed.
• Some of them appear to convey the hardware MAC address of the 5G WiFi access point to the IoT device.  Having only a 2.4G radio, it cannot find this access point.  Again, trying to be too helpful.
• Some are just s**t.  (I won't name the brand, but...) It took me almost 10 tries to get a window blind controller to work.  The setup failed over (and over, and over).  Did everything but light a candle. Finally, success.

So, what's the solution?  The most common tactic is to have the smartphone connected at 2.4G to the desired WiFi SSID. Complete the setup. After that, the smartphone can connect any way it pleases and everything will be good.

There are several ways to do this:

• Some users keep an old WiFi router (in a box or on a shelf) that can disable 5G.  Temporarily power off the Orbi. Connect the old router and set it to exactly the SSID/password used by the Orbi.  The smartphone will connect at 2.4G because that is all there is.  After the setup, remove the old router and power on the Orbi.
• Some users create a 2.4G WiFi Hot Spot on one cell phone with exactly the same SSID/password as the Orbi. Power off the Orbi. Go through the setup. etc. etc.
• Some of the newer AX routers now offer an IoT SSID that can disable 5G (including the 960).  Connect the smartphone to the 2.4G IoT SSID and go through the setup.

It would be really helpful to (a) have a link to the Sonos Soundbar setup instructions, and (b) have detailed information about exactly how the setup process fails.

[gumpgump]

In the UI of the latest firmware, I should be able to disable 5ghz completely, reboot and have 2.4ghz.    The Sonos rep and I worked through this and unfortunately it does not work.   Our goal was to get the entire group of the Sonos speakers to connect to the IoT network and leave it at 2.4ghz-only.   But no dice.

I also found the hidden web menu on Sonos devices and was able to get some info out of that; but didn't write it down.  I wish there were a direct CLI tool to connect to these and manually tweak their configs, but that's another topic.

The Playbar Gen 1 is 2.4ghz only.  No way around that.  But it just refuses to join this network -- Sonos says, from their internal tools, that it's connected and I see the connection and IP on the Netgear  interface, but it doesn't ping.  Nmap doesn't show much, either.

Right now, the iOS app is completely f'ed up and doesn't have any of my devices shown, but the app on my Mac does.  Another topic.

I tend to think the logic of the Sonos rep is solid; that is, getting these on the IoT network --- but I can't see that happening after so many attempts.

So I see a couple of issues.  One, the Netgear Orbi should disable the 5ghz radio if I tell it to and reboot.  It doesn't appear to.  Second, the Playbar Gen 1 connects to the Orbi, gets an IP but doesn't ping -- makes me think it's not routing IP, but will route the Sonos protocol (which I believe is proprietary).

The next trick (GRIN) I can think of is these WIFI dongles -- that plug in to an ethernet port and connect via WIFI.  The Playbar has two ethernet ports (I wonder why 2).   Perhaps I could try that as a last ditch effort.

The setup guide for the Playbar:

https://www.sonos.com/pdfs/productguides/en-us/sonos-user-guide.pdf

Thank again!

[gumpgump]

I just thought of something.  I could take a Raspberry Pi (I have a few) and load up one of those third-party router firmwares (OpenWRT, etc) and create the SSID IoT network there (BROADCOM), turning off my Netgear Orbi for the time.    Then I could try to force all my Sonos devices onto that at 2.4ghz.

Just a thought.  But like I mentioned, while working with Sonos support yesterday (who were very patient), we could not get the RBRE960 to disable the 5ghz radio.  

The other idea is to buy an ethernet (direct) to WIFI adapter/dongle -- there are several that people use to re-purpose older equipment.  As the Playbar Gen 1 has two ethernet ports, I could get this to potentially join the 5ghz network this way.

I wish the Netgear firmware allowed for CLI access and better fine-tuning -- still puzzled as to why I couldn't disable the 5ghz radio.

[CrimpOn]

@gumpgump wrote:

Just a thought.  But like I mentioned, while working with Sonos support yesterday (who were very patient), we could not get the RBRE960 to disable the 5ghz radio. 

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This is correct.  The actual 5G radio cannot be disabled.  It is essential to provide the router to satellite backhaul link. (Even if there is a wired connection between the units, the 5G WiFi link remains available.)  Broadcast of the primary SSID on both 2.4G and 5G cannot be disabled.  (And the Guest SSID if Guest WiFi is enabled.)  The 5G radio cannot be turned off.

What can be disabled is broadcasting the IoT network SSID on 5G. On page 65 of the User Manual:

https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/RBKE963/RBRE960_RBSE960_UM_EN.pdf 

If 2.4 GHz only is selected, then the IoT SSID will appear only at 2.4GHz.  If the Sonos is told to connect to the IoT SSID, then the only radio it can access is the 2.4G radio.

[gumpgump]

I've been on the phone with Sonos support again.  We cannot figure out why devices on the IoT network (which share the same IP space) cannot see devices on the regular SSID (and vise versa).

I don't see any rules in the Netgear settings that isolate these two -- though it keeps the IoT network invisible.

Anyone know what's going on here?

[CrimpOn]

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@gumpgump wrote:

I don't see any rules in the Netgear settings that isolate these two -- though it keeps the IoT network invisible.

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Please provide more detail about "invisible".

• IoT devices do not appear in the list of Attached Devices?
• IoT devices do not respond to ICMP (ping) from devices on the primary network?
• The IoT WiFi network does not appear as a choice?
• ???

[gumpgump]

The iOS network setting lists the IoT as "Hidden Network".

I have disabled it.

Sonos is now telling me that there is an issue with Netgear Orbi and some default parental control that blocks their services.  I have the Orbi RBRE960 and I can't find any reference to parental controls in the web UI.   In the iOS app, there is a default "Home" profile and a modal that says " || Pause"    But when I try to apply that, it says "Oops! You've Reached Your Device Limit" and then asks me to pay money for more advanced features and profiles (which I'm not doing).

I wonder if I need to reset the iOS app -- since I upgraded my iPhone from a 14 to a 15, perhaps it's confused and thinks the 14 is still an active device?

But I don't understand why this would be present in the iOS app and not in the web portal to the router -- I would think that would be very important.

[gumpgump]

None of the devices on the IoT network could be pinged from the other SSID.   As far as I can tell, there shouldn't be a reason for this -- but this is what we've been seeing.    I have a PlayBar Gen 1 here that is limited to 2.4ghz.  It shows connected, has an IP, but i can't ping it.

iOS 17 and iPhone 15 Pro support USB networking -- so when I disable WIFI and connect the physical network connector on the same network, I sometimes get different results -- which doesn't make sense as it's all on the same /24 network.

[gumpgump]

When I place all of my Sonos devices on the IoT SSID, I can see them only on that SSID.   When I join them to the regular SSID (that does both 2.4hz and 5ghz) I the iOS app can't see them.

This is bizarre and I don't understand why this is happening.

[KevinLiT]

Hello gumpgump,

Welcome to the NETGEAR Community!

I understand that you are having issues with your IoT devices. This issue could be caused by conflicting security profiles on your RBR960. Please ensure that your main network is on the same security profile as your IoT network. Test for connectivity between your main wireless network and your IoT devices. Please toggle off your 6Ghz-only wireless network during the troubleshooting process.

Please log in to orbilogin.com and navigate to the following security settings on your RBR960:

• Home
• Wireless
• Security options
• 'Select' WPA2-PSK [AES] + WPA3-Personal [SAE]

Please log in to orbilogin.com and navigate to the following options:

• Home
• Wireless
• 'Uncheck' Enable 6 GHz Only Network

Please let me know if this helps!

Best,

Kevin

Community Team

[CrimpOn]

I remain totally confused.  Lacking a 960, I created an IoT network on an RBR750 (Called BadIoT never pass up a chance for humor).

Connected a Google Mini speaker to BadIoT.  The Google Mini supports both 2.4G and 5G and it selected 5G.

The Orbi Attached Devices display shows it with IP address 10.0.0.8. (This RBR750 is connected to my regular Orbi router,and thus defined its LAN subnet as 10.0.0.x)

From a laptop wired to the RBR750, I can ping the Google Mini.

Connected a smartphone to the primary WiFi on the RBR750.  The smartphone can ping the Google Mini.

When I run a network scanner (Fing) on the smartphone, it reports four  total devices:

1. The RBR750 router
2. The wired laptop
3. The Google Mini speaker
4. The smartphone that Fing is running on.

This matches the Attached Devices display exactly.

Unless the 960 product is very strange, my conclusion is that devices on the IoT network are totally visible to devices on the primary WiFi network and the primary wired network.

[CrimpOn]

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@gumpgump wrote:

Sonos is now telling me that there is an issue with Netgear Orbi and some default parental control that blocks their services.  I have the Orbi RBRE960 and I can't find any reference to parental controls in the web UI.   In the iOS app, there is a default "Home" profile and a modal that says " || Pause"

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This is correct.  In their infinite wisdom, Netgear placed Smart Parental Controls (SPC) only in the Orbi app.  It does not appear in the web interface.  I have never enabled SPC, because my parents no longer need to be contolled, and thus have no idea how to remove it.  Maybe this "came with" the 960???

[gumpgump]

(replying to my own replies, which is sad 🙂 )

So here's some interesting twist.  I disabled WIFI 6E Mode (Auto) on iOS 17 and I was able to see my Sonos devices.

However, as for the older Playbar Gen 1, Sonos says there is an issue (or may be) with Multicast and the Orbi.  I do NOT see any settings about this in the UI anywhere.  I asked why my other speakers would work and not the Gen 1 Playbar and the rep said there's a difference in software.

So the puzzle continues.    I suspect we may be hitting some issues with the Netgear firmware, but not sure.

[CrimpOn]

@gumpgump wrote:

So here's some interesting twist.  I disabled WIFI 6E Mode (Auto) on iOS 17 and I was able to see my Sonos devices.

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There may be a "wrinkle" in terms of 6G WiFi.  Page 62 of the user manual describes a separate 6GHz only WiFi network.

https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/RBKE963/RBRE960_RBSE960_UM_EN.pdf 

Notice this network is separate from the 6GHz band in the main WiFi network.  If the iPhone has connected to this

6G SSID (rather than the primary SSID which supports 2.4G, 5G, and 6G frequencies), then it is entirely cut off trom the rest of the system.  Why?  (good question. I am sure that somebody thought this was a good idea.)

[gumpgump]

We experimented with trying to isolate 2.4ghz in the IoT SSID, unchecking 2.4ghz on the main SSID.  That failed.  We also tried just disabling 5ghz as a debugging test, that failed.   

Despite this, I could see my iPhone 15 Pro connected in the 6ghz bandwidth in the Attached Devices listing.

Presently tho I don't have the 6ghz-only channel enabled.   So this is puzzling -- and it's simply not clear where the "problem" is or if it's multiple issues we're seeing.    Again, if I disable WIFI 6E "auto" on iOS 17, the Sonos app starts working (albeit it is still a bit buggy).  

I'm also puzzled as to why the separate IoT network, that exists on the same /24, cannot see the other parts of the network attached to a different SSID but same network space.   This suggests that the Netgear firmware is isolating it somehow -- but we don't see any rules or configurables for this.

Ultimately, I pushed all my Sonos units back to my normal, everyday use SSID for consistency.  Otherwise, I'd have to switch WIFI networks to see/control my Sonos speakers, which makes no sense.

I believe my firmware is also up to date on this Orbi:

Hardware Version	RBRE960
Firmware Version	V7.2.6.21_5.0.20

[FURRYe38]

Just FYI, you can't disable any of the radios on the MAIN SSID network. The only radios you can disable fully is the IoT and 6Ghz separate networks. The mains are always enabled. 

[gumpgump]

Interesting that the web GUI allows you to "uncheck" the individual radio signal even for the main SSID -- so if you can't actually disable either, I wonder why those options are even there.

But again, when my iPhone was on the 6ghz network, same /24, it couldn't see other devices --- I don't see any options for multicast, nothing.   So I have no idea what Netgear is doing here.

[FURRYe38]

Please post a screen capture of this screen please?

[gumpgump]

I've since discovered that I get results if I turn off "Wi-Fi 6E Mode" on iOS 17 -- then the Sonos app magically appears and works.

This suggests to me that the Orbi is doing some bandwidth steering or similar, and control over these elements is not offered in the admin UI.

The post only allows one image per, so I'll post the second screen shot after.

To make this more complex, I attached a known/working Philips Hue Bridge to the RBRE960 via network cable.  It gets an IP, but will not ping, the iOS Hue app cannot find it.   So the common element here is the Orbi.   I have the previous Orbi in storage and I'm going to pull it out and see if I have the same results.

[gumpgump]

Second screenshot of UI